Who won the war against Germany?

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MVSNConsolegenerale
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Who won the war against Germany?

#1

Post by MVSNConsolegenerale » 24 Apr 2002, 07:06

[Moved from the Polls section]


Who won the war against Germany? Some reasons would be interesting.

For example, I have a friend who has the insane idea that without Canada the war would have been lost because without our resources the British would have fallen. We obviously played a part, but not the defining one in my opinion :)

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mike262752
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#2

Post by mike262752 » 24 Apr 2002, 09:12

I think Russia is going to get 99% of the votes here. Russia was just too big.


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Raf
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#3

Post by Raf » 25 Apr 2002, 13:42

The allies did. Who can tell when one off them weren't involved or chosen the other side.

Maybe, but this is just a thought, it was Hitler himself. Something to think about...

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MVSNConsolegenerale
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RE: Hitler

#4

Post by MVSNConsolegenerale » 26 Apr 2002, 08:37

Your right about one thing,
Hitler should have left the war to the generals. Something that stalin (Who at least had some experience in wars) found out very shortly after hitler invaded him. Hence why he let Zhukov become so powerful, cause he knew he needed him. Hitler was not intelligent enough about military affairs and by this point was to egotistical to realize that his nazing of the OKW had removed all the really knowledgable generals. Stalin admittedly did something similar, but soon realized the error of his ways...Hitler never ever did. Right down to the battle of berlin with his rediculous offensives (at that point of the war! Rediculous!).

Intelligent on a political setting...militarily....definately not.

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Snorre
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#5

Post by Snorre » 26 Apr 2002, 09:45

Raf wrote:Maybe, but this is just a thought, it was Hitler himself...
Hi Raf,

I liked that answer. Quite deep.

I think the russian effort was the most external significant factor in Germany's defeat. However, I also think that the war could have been much longer if the Allied airstrikes over Germany had not been performed.

Regards,

Snorre 8)

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Raf
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#6

Post by Raf » 26 Apr 2002, 10:09

Hi, Snorre,

Thanks for your reply on my commend.

You're also right about the airstrikes but when those attacks would have been concentrated on the oilproduction, Germany wouldn't had got the gasoline and kerosine to keep the tanks, U-boots, trucks and airplanes going. Following statistics I found some time ago, it is clear that when the allies only had bombed those sites, they only had the need off 10 % off the bombers. This would have saved a lot off lives off allied planecrews and German citizens. These statistics also show that these bombingraids would have shorten the war in the same way as with the bombingcampaign that was performed.

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houndie
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#7

Post by houndie » 17 May 2002, 22:38

The russians had the army of about 3 million men at the start of the war, i don't know, how many they had at the whole time of the war, but a meaningful example is 13 million troops killed. This was only one Front and they had this kind of manpower, plus at least two times more tanks than the gemans had (i think about 50 000 tanks against about 100 000, of course i'm not sure. searching the net i find almost nothing better than "fearless russians fighting in critical odds against them").
Here's a site, telling:



The main military events of the 1942-1943 winter campaign were the Stalingrad and the North Caucasian offensive operations, Leningrad blockade breach. The Red Army advanced 600-700 km to the West, defeated 100 enemy divisions - 40% of all Nazi forces on the Soviet-German front.


Of course it was only soviet-german front, but how many divisions did they have against the americans and the british? I don't think it totalled 100 divisions.

The russians were already winning. Then the americans found it would be best for them to also attack (ok, some will say "they needed it because of blablabla and them not doing Normandy would've been really bad for the Allies and they wouldn't have won", but that's bullshit). Normandy was meaningless. The only thing the americans helped by attacking were the Germans in Berlin, who didn't get the russian revenge - who were at Western Berlin. The russians raped almost 300 000 women the 3 days they had free will to do everything in Berlin. They hadn't got the chance to do the same in the American side of Berlin. When hitler killed himself, his heir (what'd be a better word?), instead of organizing the defence, had people massively transported to the americans, to escape the russian vengeance.

But where am i going! Russians were the main enemies, although there weren't just russians. There also were estonians(grrrr), latvians (gr), lithuanians (these fagets liked it). You should use these two words - Soviet Union.

of course Americans were good... ok, just joking.
Americans weren't, in general, good fighters. That was the average german opinion (i am not, again 100% sure, but i am also saying average, don't start pulling out newspaper articles, where the germans say some americans were really good fighters). They were the same to them as the Italians, who were, frankly, pretty weak in war.

The final sentence: what proof does anyone, who put America, have of america being crucial in winning the war?
War is a matter of vital importance to the state. Hence, it is imperative that it be studied thoroughly - sun tzu
The truth of world war should be documented and it should not be treated as nazi propaganda.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#8

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 May 2002, 23:32

houndie wrote:The russians had the army of about 3 million men at the start of the war, i don't know, how many they had at the whole time of the war, but a meaningful example is 13 million troops killed. This was only one Front and they had this kind of manpower, plus at least two times more tanks than the gemans had (i think about 50 000 tanks against about 100 000, of course i'm not sure. searching the net i find almost nothing better than "fearless russians fighting in critical odds against them").
Here's a site, telling:



The main military events of the 1942-1943 winter campaign were the Stalingrad and the North Caucasian offensive operations, Leningrad blockade breach. The Red Army advanced 600-700 km to the West, defeated 100 enemy divisions - 40% of all Nazi forces on the Soviet-German front.


Of course it was only soviet-german front, but how many divisions did they have against the americans and the british? I don't think it totalled 100 divisions.

The russians were already winning. Then the americans found it would be best for them to also attack (ok, some will say "they needed it because of blablabla and them not doing Normandy would've been really bad for the Allies and they wouldn't have won", but that's bullshit). Normandy was meaningless. The only thing the americans helped by attacking were the Germans in Berlin, who didn't get the russian revenge - who were at Western Berlin. The russians raped almost 300 000 women the 3 days they had free will to do everything in Berlin. They hadn't got the chance to do the same in the American side of Berlin. When hitler killed himself, his heir (what'd be a better word?), instead of organizing the defence, had people massively transported to the americans, to escape the russian vengeance.

But where am i going! Russians were the main enemies, although there weren't just russians. There also were estonians(grrrr), latvians (gr), lithuanians (these fagets liked it). You should use these two words - Soviet Union.

of course Americans were good... ok, just joking.
Americans weren't, in general, good fighters. That was the average german opinion (i am not, again 100% sure, but i am also saying average, don't start pulling out newspaper articles, where the germans say some americans were really good fighters). They were the same to them as the Italians, who were, frankly, pretty weak in war.

The final sentence: what proof does anyone, who put America, have of america being crucial in winning the war?
where do peopel get this 13 mil number ....

6 885,1 KIA

5 059,0 MIA, POWs etc even id added does not come to 13 mil

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Galahad
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hmmmmm

#9

Post by Galahad » 18 May 2002, 05:04

So the US wasn't at all important to the Allied war effort? That's interesting.
It might also be interesting to consider what Soviet mobility would have been like without the 400000 odd trucks the US supplied to the USSR.

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Der Schwarze Ritter
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who won

#10

Post by Der Schwarze Ritter » 18 May 2002, 07:07

How about the British, they were in it since day three and they never surrendured.

-Daniel-

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Victor
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#11

Post by Victor » 18 May 2002, 07:13

Who won the war? That's easy: the SU, USA, Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India (+ the rest of less important Commonwealth states), Italy (from 1943), Romania (from 1944), Brasil, Mexico and others.

The war was won by an ALLIANCE. Not just by one force. Of course the SU has the lion's share in the victory, but it wasn't alone. Just as Germany wasn't alone.

I suggest you add the alliance option to the poll.

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houndie
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#12

Post by houndie » 19 May 2002, 03:12

who cares about the 1 million between? it still proves my point: the russians had a lot of men and a lot of them died. I wonder, how much was the Red army in total. the Germans started the war with 5 million men. how much did they just pull to the front at 1945 or how big was the Waffen-SS are things i don't know, but if the numbers are compared, i think the Soviets still have almost two times more men.

The Soviets didn't really NEED the 400 000 trucks, to win. I don't think the trucks made the war.
War is a matter of vital importance to the state. Hence, it is imperative that it be studied thoroughly - sun tzu
The truth of world war should be documented and it should not be treated as nazi propaganda.

Logan Hartke
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#13

Post by Logan Hartke » 19 May 2002, 03:20

houndie wrote:The Soviets didn't really NEED the 400 000 trucks, to win. I don't think the trucks made the war.
Yeah, just like they don't need av. gas, gunnery optics, explosives, steel, machine tools, railroad tracks, train engines, train cars, transport aircraft, wheat, SPAM, or food at all.

Logan Hartke

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Galahad
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#14

Post by Galahad » 19 May 2002, 04:11

Houndie says: "The Soviets didn't really NEED the 400 000 trucks, to win. I don't think the trucks made the war."
Perhaps they didn't need them to win, but trying to sustain those armored drives of 1944 and 1945 while supplying them by using horse-drawn wagons would have sure slowed things down and made life easier for the Germans on the East Front.

Relay
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Re: RE: Hitler

#15

Post by Relay » 19 May 2002, 15:09

MVSNConsolegenerale wrote:
Intelligent on a political setting...militarily....definately not.
Maybe Staling could see when the war became military rather than political. Maybe Hitler never was able to see that difference thats why he intefered.

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