Who won the war against Germany?

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Snafu
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#31

Post by Snafu » 03 Jun 2002, 16:40

Snafu.....That was my point.....the Western Allies helped the Soviets, and vice versa. The task of one part of the alliance would have been a lot harder without the help provided by the other. To say that either "did it by themselves" is silly.
Okay, I wholly agree. Please pardon me if I made it look otherwise. Would the bolsheviks have made it through without the substantial western aid including the consequences of the bomber offensive in terms of Luftwaffe allocation? Probably not. They were almost vanquished in spite of that aid, coming out on top only because of what loosely can be described as luck plus the determined sacrifice of the people. None of those guys in the Kremlin deserved the latter though.
It's a little bit how you phrase the question I should think. If one asks who won the war by fighting it instead of just decisively contributing to it, there is to my mind (and most others I'd dare say; it's not a controversial issue) little doubt who played the biggest part.

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Roberto
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#32

Post by Roberto » 03 Jun 2002, 18:01

A recently published book by Rüdiger Overmans, Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg, has provided the most comprehensive overview of German military fatalities in World War II currently available:

Losses per branch & theater

Heer Dead
Eastern front: 2.471.490
"Endkämpfe"1945: 861.811
West: 213.528
Various: 315.353
POW: 339.848
Total: 4.202.030

Kriegsmarine Dead
Eastern front: 10.033
"Endkämpfe"1945: 26.132
West: 11.000
Various: 82.231
POW: 9.033
Total: 138.429

Luftwaffe Dead
Eastern front: 116.891
"Endkämpfe"1945: 138.320
West: 62.198
Various: 79.198
POW: 36.099
Total: 432.706

Waffen-SS Dead
Eastern front: 116.363
"Endkämpfe"1945: 87.693
West: 43.198
Various: 38.231
POW: 28.264
Total: 313.749

Various Dead
Eastern front: 28.132
"Endkämpfe"1945: 116.089
West: 10.033
Various: 31.132
POW: 46.231
Total: 231.617

One thing that is clearly visible from this and other tables in Overmans' book is the much greater weight of the Eastern Front in relation to all other fronts in terms of German soldiers killed until the end of 1944. The table doesn’t contain a split between Eastern Front and Western Front for the figures regarding the "Endkämpfe" (final battles) in 1945, so I calculated a split myself. Considering that German troops gradually stopped fighting in the West and surrendered en masse to the allies after January, 1945, while on the Eastern Front they continued to offer desperate, even suicidal resistance, I considered that, at least, 19 in 20 soldiers of the Heer who perished in 1945 died fighting on the Eastern Front. This may even be an understatement. Towards the end of the war, there were 30 fatalities in the East to every 1 in the West (see Brian Moynahan, Russian Century 1884-1994, Random House, Inc., page 220).
I applied the relationship of 19/20 also for the services listed under "Various", which I assume to be Volkssturm and Hitlerjugend popular militia. Regarding the Waffen-SS, which, unlike the Heer, continued to put up stubborn resistance even on the Western Front, I considered that the relationship between casualties in East and West was like in the period until December, 1944. Regarding Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe, I distributed the "Endkämpfe" figures equally between East and West, for want of a better criterion. The result:

KIA/MIA
Eastern Front, 06/1941 to 12/1944: 2,742,910
Eastern Front, 01/1941 to 05/1945: 1,074,519
Subtotal Eastern Front: 3,817,429
Western Front, 05/1940 to 12/1944: 339,957
Western Front, 01/1945 to 05/1945: 155,527
Subtotal Western Front: 495,484
Other Theaters: 546.145
Total: 4,859,058

According to these calculations, 78.56 % of German military fatalities in World War II (excluding deaths in captivity) occurred on the Eastern Front.


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Skorzeny
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#33

Post by Skorzeny » 16 Jun 2002, 15:54

All valid points, and I'll agree and say that I believe the US won the war.

And I firmly believe that Germany's fate was sealed on or about December 10, 1941, when that idiot hitler declared war on the USA.

And it all comes down to production. With a production capacity unrivalled, and unhindred by attack, the USA rules - period.

And not just tanks, planes ships.....millions of pairs of boots and other mundane items to the Russians kept them going. The Russiand might have built 1000's of planes tanks rifles etc, but how many boots did they make? All sorts of these mundane items came from the US, freeing Russian production.

And how many radios did the Russians make? Not enough to run their war, that's. It's been said that if the radios supplied by the US did not exist, the great Russian offensives just simply could not have taken place, such was the importance, and reliance, on the US made radios.

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THENIELANDS
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#34

Post by THENIELANDS » 17 Jun 2002, 09:38

ALTHOUGH I BELIEVE THAT AMERICA WON THE WAR, THEY COULDNT HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT RUSSIAS SEEMINGLY ENDLESS #S OF TROOPS WHO KEPT THE PRESSURE ON GERMANYS EASTERN FRONT.

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T.R.Searle
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#35

Post by T.R.Searle » 17 Jun 2002, 16:51

my vote goes to Russia. America and Britain made major contributions but if Russia wasnt involved its either a peace treaty with Germany or a long bloody war

Tolga Alkan
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#36

Post by Tolga Alkan » 18 Jun 2002, 21:53

Russians,
they were alone.

Robert Zeller
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hmm...

#37

Post by Robert Zeller » 18 Jun 2002, 23:48

I know Germany's defeat was a result of the Soviet Union directly, and without the Soviet Union, the war would have, with out doubt, been VERY VERY different, BUT, I doubt the Soviet Union could have won without the Allies bombing German city's and factorys, Although the western allies nor the Soviet Union were strong enough alone, the Soviet had a much larger impact.

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Lord Gort
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#38

Post by Lord Gort » 21 Jun 2002, 15:45

I am outraged. I remind all here that the bombing against Germany did not decisivley destroy German industry. Speer said in january 45 that if Silesia held out then Germnay could continue the war fro another year.


I remind you that had Great Britain dropped out then we would all be living in Nazi slave states. I remind the modest Canadians here that they helped the British morale immensly in supporting us. Yet its purely voluntary contribution to the cause of freedom in two world wars was perhaps the greatest of any democracy. Almost 10 per cent of Canada's entire population of seven million people served in the armed forces during the First World War, and nearly 60,000 died. The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by Canadian troops, perhaps the most capable soldiers in the entire British order of battle. Canada was repaid for its enormous sacrifice by downright neglect, its
unique contribution to victory being absorbed into the popular memory as somehow or other the work of the "British". The Second World War provided a re-run. The Canadian navy began the war with a half dozen vessels, and ended up policing nearly half of the Atlantic against U-boat attack. More than 120 Canadian warships participated in the Normandy landings, during which
15,000 Canadian soldiers went ashore on D-Day alone. Canada finished the war with the third largest navy and the fourth largest air force in the world.


I remind you all again that Britsh contributions to the Russian war effort was massive. And it was the danger of a british invasion after the British dieppe raid that kept 40 divisions in France and not fighting the soviets in the east.

All of this turns on Churchill keeping the War cabinet from making peace. I admitt Great Britian may not have won the war, but she alone prevented the world from losing it.

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#39

Post by Dave » 21 Jun 2002, 22:24

Lord Gort wrote:I am outraged. I remind all here that the bombing against Germany did not decisivley destroy German industry.
Didn't destroy German "Industry", just the factories....

I remind you that had Great Britain dropped out then we would all be living in Nazi slave states.
The EUROPEANS would...
Yet its purely voluntary contribution to the cause of freedom in two world wars was perhaps the greatest of any democracy.
Not hardly. American logistics, and to a lesser degree American troops won BOTH World Wars.
Almost 10 per cent of Canada's entire population of seven million people served in the armed forces during the First World War, and nearly 60,000 died.
Not denigrating Canadian valor in the least. However, the CEF was destroyed as an independent fighting force (as were the rest of the BEF) at Paaschendale.
The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by Canadian troops,
You're one country off. The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by the AEF.
perhaps the most capable soldiers in the entire British order of battle.
That's not saying much...

Canada was repaid for its enormous sacrifice by downright neglect, its
unique contribution to victory being absorbed into the popular memory as somehow or other the work of the "British".
Very valid point. Just as the yeoman work of the AEF has been denigrated by Europhilic historians for some 70-80 years.
I admitt Great Britian may not have won the war, but she alone prevented the world from losing it.
Horse Manure.

Where would the Brits (and the rest of the Allies) be without:

Winchester, Remington, and US Cartridge Co. ammunition
Packard fighter engines
Motor vehicles
Aluminium
Small arms
Aircraft
Destroyers
Money
Foodstuffs
Cotton
Henry Kaiser's Liberty Ships

We could continue, but we trust the above list gets our point across.

And last, but by no means least, the one article that brought the War to a complete end, a product of good old Tennessee:

The Atomic Bomb

We have said it before and we will continue to say it. American logistics (and to a lesser degree, fighting men) won both World Wars. A rhetorical question: How do you think the Battle Of Britain or the Russian Front would have turned out without Lend Lease?

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Pzkpfw6/E
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#40

Post by Pzkpfw6/E » 23 Jun 2002, 18:54

Nobody really wins a war. There is a stronger force which causes the weaker into a cease fire or cessation of hostilities. Look at everything that has happened since the war. The rise of Communism and it's "offspring" the Cold War, the Korean War, Nuclear proliferation with it's associated fears of world destruction, Viet Nam War, Families torn apart by the loss of husbands, wives, and children. Horrorific memories lasting a lifetime.

Who won the war? You tell me, along with the countless millions of survivors.

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Victor
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#41

Post by Victor » 24 Jun 2002, 16:03

Skorzeny wrote: And I firmly believe that Germany's fate was sealed on or about December 10, 1941, when that idiot hitler declared war on the USA.
Hitler only recognized an already existent state of war between the US and Germany.
Skorzeny wrote: And not just tanks, planes ships.....millions of pairs of boots and other mundane items to the Russians kept them going. The Russiand might have built 1000's of planes tanks rifles etc, but how many boots did they make?
The Soviet production of leather footwear between 1941-45 was about 400 million pairs. That would make the American deliveries 3.25%. :)
Tolga Alkan wrote: Russians, they were alone.
Where? In the universe? :roll:

The point is that I don't think that any of the big three could have won alone against Germany.
The UK would not have been able to come back to the continent and would eventually make a deal with Germany.
Without the UK, the US would not have a very good base of operations.
The SU would probably lose if it would be facing all the German resources.

That's why I said and will say it again that the war was won by an ALLIANCE, not by an individual country. It takes an alliance to defeat another one.

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re

#42

Post by tonyh » 25 Jun 2002, 12:39

Exactly, what was the wording of Hitler's declaration of war on the US. Any help is good.

Tony

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Scott Smith
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GERMAN DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE USA...

#43

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Jun 2002, 12:57

tonyh wrote:Exactly, what was the wording of Hitler's declaration of war on the US. Any help is good.
German Declaration of War with the United States : December 11, 1941


December 11, 1941

(Including the circumstances of the delivery of the note as released to the press by the Department of State, December 11, 1941.)

The German Charg d'Affaires, Dr. Hans Thomsen, and the First Secretary of the German Embassy, Mr. von Strempel, called at the State Department at 8:00 A.M. on December 11, 1941. The Secretary, otherwise engaged, directed that they be received by the Chief of the European Division of the State Department, Mr. Ray Atherton. Mr. Atherton received the German representatives at 9:30 A.M.

The German representatives handed to Mr. Atherton a copy of a note that is being delivered this morning, December 11, to the American Charg d'Affaires in Berlin. Dr. Thomsen said that Germany considers herself in a state of war with the United States. He asked that the appropriate measures be taken for the departure of himself, the members of the German Embassy, and his staff in this country. He reminded Mr. Atherton that the German Government had previously expressed its willingness to grant the same treatment to American press correspondents in Germany as that accorded the American official staff on a reciprocal basis and added that he assumed that the departure of other American citizens from Germany would be permitted on the same basis of German citizens desiring to leave this country. He referred to the exchange of civilians that had been arranged at the time Great Britain and Germany broke off diplomatic relations.

The German Charg d'Affaires then stated that the Swiss Government would take over German interests in this country and that Dr. Bruggmann had already received appropriate instructions from his Government.

He then handed Mr. Atherton a note from the German Government. Mr. Atherton stated that in accepting this note from the German Charg d'Affaires he was merely formalizing the realization that the Government and people of this country had faced since the outbreak of the war in 1939 of the threat and purposes of the German Government and the Nazi regime toward this hemisphere and our free American civilization.

Mr. Atherton then said that this Government would arrange for the delivery of Dr. Thomsen's passports and that he assumed that we would very shortly be in communication with the Swiss Minister. He added that Dr. Thomsen must realize, however, that the physical difficulties of the situation would demand a certain amount of time in working out this reciprocal arrangement for the departure of the missions of the two countries. The German representatives then took their leave.

The text of the note which the German representatives handed to Mr. Ray Atherton, Chief of the European Division of the State Department, at 9:30 A.M., December 11, the original of which had been delivered the morning of December 11 to the American Charg d'Affaires in Berlin, follows:

MR. CHARG D'AFFAIRES:

The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression.

On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German sub-marines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines.

Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.

The German Government therefore establishes the following facts:

Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war.

The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.

Accept, Mr. Charge d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration.

December 11, 1941.

RIBBENTROP.

Source:
Department of State Bulletin, December 13, 1941.
Washington, DC : Government Printing Office, 1941

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/gerdec41.htm

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houndie
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#44

Post by houndie » 03 Jul 2002, 17:22

Snafu wrote:Okay, so the USA supplied the trucks and the tin cans. What good is a field kitchen without the soldiers to eat from it?
It was the Russians none the less, using mainly russian designed equipment, russian tactics and above all russian manpower who beat the German army in WWII. Without the Soviet Union, the western allies would have had no option but to sign the peace treaty that Hitler had wanted since 1939 and recognize Germany as the legal imperial power on the European continent.
Remembering the Soviet tactics, you couldn't have told it more correctly :)
War is a matter of vital importance to the state. Hence, it is imperative that it be studied thoroughly - sun tzu
The truth of world war should be documented and it should not be treated as nazi propaganda.

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#45

Post by Tiwaz » 04 Jul 2002, 00:32

I have to give my vote to Russia as well.

From various sources I have seen most place roughly 3/4 from German troops to eastern front.
Defeating such huge amount of enemy troops definitely makes Russians winner in this category.

I have seen more often than I care to think mentions about huge amount of help sent to Russians. If someone could provide some numbers of Russian production during WW2 so that we could compare amount of produced goods and sent goods I would be very grateful.

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