Who won the war against Germany?

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Luca
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#61

Post by Luca » 24 Jul 2002, 04:45

Victor wrote:Romania put half a million men in the field and lost 168,000. It is on the fourth place after SU, USA and UK.
Very interesting,
in the same time around 500.000 fighters was under RSI flag.
In any case places re for the "winners"
Best Regards
Luca

Roland
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#62

Post by Roland » 24 Jul 2002, 06:32

Tiwaz

No, russians are not the only ones. However they definately have the biggest problem. And biggest attitude also.
When it comes to war itself, You have to consider not only help from US, but everything else. If there would be no US, England and other Western countries invalwed, how meny more german solders would be fighting on eastern front?There would be no germans daying in Africa, Balkans, Italy, France. There would be no airplanes shot down over these countries and England. There would be no need to strech out supply lines to the West. Germany would not get bombed to dust. German units would not get called away from eastern front. Supplys would have got there on time. Luftwaffe would have never lost air superiority. German tanks would never run out of fuel and ammo. And how much more war material germans could have built if their factories was safe? I think germans would still got pusshed back at Moscow, but thats it. I dont care what russians say in thair history, in reality they struggled in the eastern front. They threw everything they had at germans and they still struggled. And that hapened while germans also foght in other fronts. Russians only had one front. And they had a help from West. Now put that all together, and picture comes out totaly different. There is no way in the world that russians coud have won the war alone.


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Leibstandarte
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#63

Post by Leibstandarte » 26 Jul 2002, 09:52

I have read some very serious and intelligent remarks concerning this excellent question. Below is my contribution after careful thought.....

Though some may disagree with me I believe that the Germans were vastly superior to the Russians and came very close to knocking them out of the war in 1941. If the additional armor, troops and air force units stationed in both the West and North Africa had been deployed in the east I doubt that Russia could have hung on even into 1942. (Imagine what Rommel would have done in Russia ??)

So that leads me to my main "strategic point". The only protagonist left in the west in June 1941 was the UK. Sure they were outgunned etc etc and in no position to really do any real harm to Germany at that point but their presence demanded attention/precious resources and that was enough in my opinion to cost Germany the war.

The British presence, both strategically and tactically was required if the US was to be effective from 1942 onwards....

Now do not mistake me here ..... I am not saying Russia did not contribute mightily but I do believe that the "combined efforts" of the allies was required and that this combination amounted to insuperable odds for the Third Reich.

My analogy would be to liken this situation to a door held in place by three hinges. If any of the hinges is removed the door will come undone...and Hitler did say speaking of Barbarossa "...all we have to do is kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come tumbling down".

Therefore, without the British presence it is my understanding, based solely upon the facts, Russia by itself would have gone down to Germany and its allies. Britain by itself would never have managed an invasion and the US without the UK as a base would have been far too remote to really play a part or supply Russia as she did...but together well, the finale spoke for itself....


Leibstandarte

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Who won the war against Germany?

#64

Post by scatcat » 26 Jul 2002, 16:27

Hitler himself did, with help from a lot of others internally and externally. :D

There were reasons why he was jokingly called "Gröfaz" (GRÖssest Feldzherr Alle Zeiten - the greatest commander of all times). His merits as a military strategist, operational or tactical commander were at best mediocre. It's a bit like a person who has read a smidgen of law or medicine, behaving like a full-fledged lawyer or doctor - it always ends in pain.
I'm aware of that it may seem that H. were a great strategist in the way he jockeyed Germany into position before the outbreak of the war. But I would tend to disagree as most of his actions were of an ideological rather than strategic nature. One could even argue that it got the allies even closer together and therefore was really BAD strategy.

The nazifying of the military and civilian top echelon's was another example of a bad call. There is only one example in history, where that kind of ploy has been beneficial to military strength - Napoleon. In N's case it was because he got rid of incompetents who got their position from family ties and prestige alone, giving room for those ambitious an competent lower officers who had previously been barred from higher rank.

Blindly believing in competition, many functions were set up with redundancy, making the ppl charged with the executing of the same functions fight each other as much as the problem at hand - and giving them an easy out by blaming someone else if it hit the fan. There were a lot of empires being built within the ranks.

He also showed four dangerous vices - playing too close to his chest, making impossible demands, being unrealistic and being indecisive.

1.) Hitler seemed to distrust everyone but himself and a small cadre of yessirs close to him. He thereby failed to delegate authority to those with the best ability to make well-formed decisions. He also kept the plans for the war mighty close to himself, sometimes stupidly.
Two short examples, the first being Rommel in Africa: He didn't get the troops he asked for, but never knew it was because of the coming operation Barbarossa. So he was kept in the dark about such a crucial development, believing his operation was high-priority.
Second being the bomber role of the me262: This was crucial to H's anti-invasion plans - even so he never told those in charge of getting the planes ready the reason for carrying bombs. The result being that request was ignored, H. having a fit of anger, H. and Luftwaffe coming even further apart.
2.) H. made the same mistake as the generals of ww1 -- making plans at the table, getting out of touch with hard reality. Like his firing of generals on the eastern front, just because they took reality into account. Or telling Paulus not to surrender, but to fight to the last man -- like some romantic battlefield tale for adolescents.
3.) Well, let's just say Barbarossa… Or the defense of Berlin.
4.) H. loved to think of himself as a military mastermind, coming up with this and then that grandiose plan for success, but often failed to grasp the point of decision. Like when H. wanted to launch a surprise offensive against USSR. But then demanded a halt of the main concentration of the German armies to assist secondary forces in seizing subsidiary objectives. (The OKH produced an elegantly simple and direct plan for the campaign but failed to counter Hitler's objections.)

H. failed to grasp international political and diplomatic strategy. An example:
As Fleming wrote, he could easily have ended the war in the west after Dunkirk, by unilaterally declaring cease-fire and then setting up "neutral" benevolent "puppet"-governments in all of Western Europe. Thereby he would be ridding himself of the need for occupation while still being able to skim the cream of the top, setting up defense treaties etc. He would then more or less force GB either to sue for peace or fight a war with a Germany they no longer had physical contact with. As Fleming stated, it would take more than even the rhetoric of Churchill to keep GB in the war without a clear and present threat, and with the exile-governments wanting to go home. According to him, the one thing that strengthened the resolve of the British were adversity and danger.
Without an active war in Western Europe, and with Germany as a "benevolent" victor, the US would probably not have entered into it. GB and US would after all have had to trespass or occupy "neutral" territory to even get to Germany -- political suicide.
With no credible threat from the west, H. would only have to keep Mussolini's adventures in check to be able to concentrate all his efforts on USSR. A USSR that both GB and US feared implicitly. Judge for yourself what might have happened.

Lastly, barring Hitler as the cause for the fall of Germany I'd say it's a hard call to make. I suppose USSR is high on the list since the majority of casualties where in the east. But without the bombing of German factories and without the diversion of troops to the west USSR might well be named in german today…

/Scat

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Victor
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#65

Post by Victor » 26 Jul 2002, 21:28

Luca wrote:Very interesting,
in the same time around 500.000 fighters was under RSI flag.
In any case places re for the "winners"
Best Regards
Luca
Even though Romania was not considered a "winner" as it should have been, considering the forces it supplied, this was mainly because of the Soviet Union's position.
Btw, wasn't Italy considered among the winners?
The 4th place stuff is taken from a speech of a member of the English House of Communes.
Here are some figures. After 23 August 1944, Romania was on the Allied side. Until 9 May 1945, the 1st and 4th Romanian Army, advanced 1,700 km (about 6.5 km/day). They crossed 12 major rivers and liberated 3,831 settlements (53 cities). Casualties were high: 169,822 (42,700 in Hungary and 66,495 in Czechoslovakia and the rest in Transylvania) out of 538,536 soldiers. But they caused the enemy 136,529 casualties. In Hungary, the Romanian troops fought over 30,000 square km and, in Czechoslovakia, over 35,000 square km. This represented about 25-30% of the total surface of the two states. During 8 and a half months, the Romanian Army had to use only its own resources, without receiving any new equipment from the Allies. On the contrary, the Romanian factories worked more for the Red Army, than for ours. The economic effort was about 1,200,000,000 USD (1938 value).

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Klinsmann
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#66

Post by Klinsmann » 26 Jul 2002, 23:03

The Russians and the Americans

Klinsmann 8)

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#67

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 26 Jul 2002, 23:12

Americans? How about the Brits?

Christian

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Zachary
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#68

Post by Zachary » 27 Jul 2002, 04:51

I don't think the British could of done it alone, no offense to anyone British person. :wink:
Just imagine them invading fortress Europe alone, without American help.
Regards,
Zachary

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