Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
It would be great if they found something but sadly I don't believe that is going to happen. As with all these myths there is never any definitive information, no names of anyone involved, no surviving witnesses and no documentation. In addition when the media arrive on the scene Pinocchio's nose grows even longer! Most of these stories are born from the chaos of the closing stages of the war which allows people to invent just about anything. There are other examples of such myths which date back to the 1940's like 'Rommel's Gold'. Books have been written about it, documentaries made and expeditions mounted but, in reality, it never existed. Great story though! In this present case the story allegedly has been around for many years. Myths, legends - call them what you will but they never have any factual evidence whatsoever. Rather surprisingly I seldom see any attempt to conduct an historical investigation before the physical one takes place. On the positive side it's great fun looking for The Holy Chalice or King Arthur's Sword and, if you find either, you can be assured of becoming an immediate 'A' lister! However, you never know. Perhaps there is a sliver of hope in Poland. Maybe they will find something and I hope they do but whatever they do find it isn't going to be an armoured train and there isn't going to be any gold unfortunately.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Actually this story from the British 'Independent' newspaper Published in August last year) provides some interesting statistics.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 09811.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 09811.html
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Indeed!!
L.
A couple of my favorites are, (1) the large, secret Nazi base in Antarctica that the U.S. sent a large naval task force under Admiral Byrd to destroy in 1946, and, (2) the detachment of 4-engine Ju 290s that opened a busy air route between northern Norway and Japan in the last 6 months of the war that flew uranium, A-bomb plans and other weapon-related cargo to Germany's Axis partner in the Pacific. Both of these myths endure forever no matter how much and often they are disclaimed and shown to be false.“The publicity the town has gotten in the global media is worth roughly around $200 million,” Arkadiusz Grudzien, spokesman for the mayor of Walbrzych and head of the City Promotion Office, told the New York Times.
“Our annual budget for promotion is $380,000, so think about that. Whether the explorers find anything or not, that gold train has already arrived.”
L.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
The problem is the article in Independent is mostly fake news, the statistics are made up, especially the £150 million.
The main reason is because of the open borders nobody knows how many people visit a region or a city.
Some said early on that the publicity in the global media was worth roughly around $200 million and it has been mindlessly repeated since then, but ask a bunch of your compatriots about the name of the city and I'm sure 100% of them will not be able to recall, most of them probably don't even remember the country, or even the train. Maybe Poland received some limited free publicity but the city didn't.
The statement that "treasure hunters and members of the public have flocked to help with the search" so "tourism there is up 44%" is surreal, as if hundreds of thousands of people really arrived to help find the train - by doing exactly what btw?
Treasure hunting and metal detecting is forbidden (strangely both were allowed during the communist times) so it wouldn't be even possible.
I know as fact the place as a rule was empty, nobody visited it as really there was and is nothing to see there. It was a media frenzy, nothing was happening there, at the site.
Although the main attraction of the city, the Książ Castle reported 20% more visitors than expected (about 88,000 more), on the other side of Poland the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial reported 160,000 more so probably they were other reasons for the increase, like for example the terrorist attacks all over the Europe, making the safe from them Poland an attractive place to visit - it was probably mainly the Poles themselves and the nostalgic Germans anyway.
BTW 20% more brings roughly maybe about £350 thousand making the £150 million absurd, as in the city basically almost nothing else is worth a visit.
The main reason is because of the open borders nobody knows how many people visit a region or a city.
Some said early on that the publicity in the global media was worth roughly around $200 million and it has been mindlessly repeated since then, but ask a bunch of your compatriots about the name of the city and I'm sure 100% of them will not be able to recall, most of them probably don't even remember the country, or even the train. Maybe Poland received some limited free publicity but the city didn't.
The statement that "treasure hunters and members of the public have flocked to help with the search" so "tourism there is up 44%" is surreal, as if hundreds of thousands of people really arrived to help find the train - by doing exactly what btw?
Treasure hunting and metal detecting is forbidden (strangely both were allowed during the communist times) so it wouldn't be even possible.
I know as fact the place as a rule was empty, nobody visited it as really there was and is nothing to see there. It was a media frenzy, nothing was happening there, at the site.
Although the main attraction of the city, the Książ Castle reported 20% more visitors than expected (about 88,000 more), on the other side of Poland the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial reported 160,000 more so probably they were other reasons for the increase, like for example the terrorist attacks all over the Europe, making the safe from them Poland an attractive place to visit - it was probably mainly the Poles themselves and the nostalgic Germans anyway.
BTW 20% more brings roughly maybe about £350 thousand making the £150 million absurd, as in the city basically almost nothing else is worth a visit.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Well WM it's good to have your opinion too. However as Larry pointed out the New York Times printed a similar story.
It seems that the New York Times and The Independent got their information from 'the horse's mouth' so to speak. Here I am referring to Arkadiusz Grudzien, the spokesman for the mayor of Walbrzych and head of the City Promotion Office. If anybody would have an idea of the statistices surely it would be him?
In addition if anybody is peddling Fake News isn't the finger pointing directly at the City Promotion Office? And while we are there maybe the treasure hunters scattered their own brand of Fake News when the story was leaked to the media in the first place?
And while I am on the subject I think Larry might have a point on that detachment of Ju-290's who were flying the busy air route between northern Norway and Japan in the last 6 months of the war When they had completed their mission delivering uranium, A-bomb plans and other weapon-related cargo to Germany's Axis partner in the Pacific they still had one more job to do. Their last operation was to fly Hitler out of Berlin to a monastery in Spain where he was eventaully able to travel by U-Boat to Argentina and various other South American countries where he met up with Martin Bormann. How do I know this? Well because it was featured in the History Channel's authorative series Hunting Hitler! I was very impressed by the wealth of knowledge and investigative prowess of the various presenters who must have given up their day jobs to undertake this absolutely amazing revelation which millions of people now probably believe.
I have kept the whole series and when I fancy a comedy show I shut my eyes and pick one episode. Never fails to double me up with laughter!
Regards
Ian
Here is a further section:
The treasure hunters, Piotr Koper and Andreas Richter, said in an interview that ground-penetrating radar images had seemed to show a regular rounded shape about 16 feet underground that looked like a tunnel ceiling.
Related Coverage
Nazi Gold Train May Not Exist, but That Doesn’t Stop Diggers AUG. 18, 2016
Hopes Dashed Again in Hunt for Fabled Nazi Gold Train in Poland DEC. 15, 2015
WALBRZYCH JOURNAL
Possible Nazi Tunnels Fuel Treasure Seekers in Poland SEPT. 29, 2015
It turned out to be of natural origin, according to Tomasz Siwiec, the coordinator of the project. “It was an iceberg that formed this beautiful dome of loam that we thought, by looking at the radar images, to be the tunnel,” Mr. Siwiec said. “You may say that the iceberg played a joke on us.”
Mr. Gaik said that the explorers were disappointed but not discouraged, and that they would try again in September, using drills rather than excavators and bulldozers, to see if they can find the tunnel they hope is nearby.
The intense speculation about the elusive train brought global attention to Walbrzych, a charming if slightly run-down town of 120,000 people that has struggled with high unemployment since five coal mines in the area closed in the 1990s.
Local officials expressed doubts about the excavation project from the beginning, and declined to contribute public funds to the search. But they allowed it to go ahead, and many hopeful local residents actively supported the explorers.
Mr. Richter said in an interview last week that most of the 64 people who were working on the project were volunteers, and that the heavy equipment was donated.
Arleta Adamska, 58, who runs an inn near the excavation site along with her husband, said she had been cooking free meals for the searchers.
“I am 100 percent certain they will find something sooner or later,” she said. “If not here, then in another place. Walbrzych is full of mysteries. But we are already benefiting: We have been booked up all summer.”
Arkadiusz Grudzien, the spokesman for the mayor of Walbrzych and head of the City Promotion Office, said in an interview that tourism in the town was up 44 percent from the previous year.
“The publicity the town has gotten in the global media is worth roughly around $200 million,” he said. “Our annual budget for promotion is $380,000, so think about that. Whether the explorers find anything or not, that gold train has already arrived.”
The mayor, Roman Szelemej, noted in an interview on Friday that before the hunt for the Nazi train began, Walbrzych was known mainly for illegal coal mining.
“I’m thinking of naming a roundabout after Koper and Richter,” Mr. Szelemej said, “in thanks for their services to our town.”
It seems that the New York Times and The Independent got their information from 'the horse's mouth' so to speak. Here I am referring to Arkadiusz Grudzien, the spokesman for the mayor of Walbrzych and head of the City Promotion Office. If anybody would have an idea of the statistices surely it would be him?
In addition if anybody is peddling Fake News isn't the finger pointing directly at the City Promotion Office? And while we are there maybe the treasure hunters scattered their own brand of Fake News when the story was leaked to the media in the first place?
And while I am on the subject I think Larry might have a point on that detachment of Ju-290's who were flying the busy air route between northern Norway and Japan in the last 6 months of the war When they had completed their mission delivering uranium, A-bomb plans and other weapon-related cargo to Germany's Axis partner in the Pacific they still had one more job to do. Their last operation was to fly Hitler out of Berlin to a monastery in Spain where he was eventaully able to travel by U-Boat to Argentina and various other South American countries where he met up with Martin Bormann. How do I know this? Well because it was featured in the History Channel's authorative series Hunting Hitler! I was very impressed by the wealth of knowledge and investigative prowess of the various presenters who must have given up their day jobs to undertake this absolutely amazing revelation which millions of people now probably believe.
I have kept the whole series and when I fancy a comedy show I shut my eyes and pick one episode. Never fails to double me up with laughter!
Regards
Ian
Here is a further section:
The treasure hunters, Piotr Koper and Andreas Richter, said in an interview that ground-penetrating radar images had seemed to show a regular rounded shape about 16 feet underground that looked like a tunnel ceiling.
Related Coverage
Nazi Gold Train May Not Exist, but That Doesn’t Stop Diggers AUG. 18, 2016
Hopes Dashed Again in Hunt for Fabled Nazi Gold Train in Poland DEC. 15, 2015
WALBRZYCH JOURNAL
Possible Nazi Tunnels Fuel Treasure Seekers in Poland SEPT. 29, 2015
It turned out to be of natural origin, according to Tomasz Siwiec, the coordinator of the project. “It was an iceberg that formed this beautiful dome of loam that we thought, by looking at the radar images, to be the tunnel,” Mr. Siwiec said. “You may say that the iceberg played a joke on us.”
Mr. Gaik said that the explorers were disappointed but not discouraged, and that they would try again in September, using drills rather than excavators and bulldozers, to see if they can find the tunnel they hope is nearby.
The intense speculation about the elusive train brought global attention to Walbrzych, a charming if slightly run-down town of 120,000 people that has struggled with high unemployment since five coal mines in the area closed in the 1990s.
Local officials expressed doubts about the excavation project from the beginning, and declined to contribute public funds to the search. But they allowed it to go ahead, and many hopeful local residents actively supported the explorers.
Mr. Richter said in an interview last week that most of the 64 people who were working on the project were volunteers, and that the heavy equipment was donated.
Arleta Adamska, 58, who runs an inn near the excavation site along with her husband, said she had been cooking free meals for the searchers.
“I am 100 percent certain they will find something sooner or later,” she said. “If not here, then in another place. Walbrzych is full of mysteries. But we are already benefiting: We have been booked up all summer.”
Arkadiusz Grudzien, the spokesman for the mayor of Walbrzych and head of the City Promotion Office, said in an interview that tourism in the town was up 44 percent from the previous year.
“The publicity the town has gotten in the global media is worth roughly around $200 million,” he said. “Our annual budget for promotion is $380,000, so think about that. Whether the explorers find anything or not, that gold train has already arrived.”
The mayor, Roman Szelemej, noted in an interview on Friday that before the hunt for the Nazi train began, Walbrzych was known mainly for illegal coal mining.
“I’m thinking of naming a roundabout after Koper and Richter,” Mr. Szelemej said, “in thanks for their services to our town.”
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Of course, it was probably them spreading all the happy camper news, but the newspapers are guilty too by not cross-checking the information and using uncritically a single source.Ian Sayer wrote:In addition if anybody is peddling Fake News isn't the finger pointing directly at the City Promotion Office?
There were no others printing similar stories, there was a single source for all of them - an article written by a Polish journalist Joanna Berendt.
The only indisputable fact (well, maybe even the only fact here) is that the main attraction of the city was visited by 20% more people than expected, which itself is an insignificant number and insignificant money.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Well the spokesman was also speaking for the mayor! I'm not sure that when you say ' nobody knows how many people visit a region or a city' you can assume that a 20% increase at the main attraction can be extrapolated to include all visitors to the city. Personally I think , on this occasion, the newspapers acted responsibly by citing the information provided by the mayor. How could they have checked out what his representaive was saying? You are entitled to your opinion WM which I respect. I just disagree with it on this occasion. Based on your assessment we have to assume that the mayor himself was the original perpetrator of the Fake News!
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
It's a good question 
. Maybe they shouldn't print unverified informations - which of course is not going to happen.
I don't know it was the mayor - although any faith in career politicians is misplaced I would say.
I think you've missed something.
it's a rusty and decaying small former industrial city, there is nothing worth seeing there except the castle.
The castle is just 1.5 miles from the site, there was a direct railway line between them, they have there real underground Nazi tunnels, it is said (without any proof) it was going to be the "a future abode for Adolf Hitler".
The only hypothetical reason for the existence of the golden train tunnel is that it was a part of the same project as the castle.
For a tourists, for any gold train aficionado the castle is a must.
This is why I'm sure they were wrong.
. Maybe they shouldn't print unverified informations - which of course is not going to happen. I don't know it was the mayor - although any faith in career politicians is misplaced I would say.
I think you've missed something.
it's a rusty and decaying small former industrial city, there is nothing worth seeing there except the castle.
The castle is just 1.5 miles from the site, there was a direct railway line between them, they have there real underground Nazi tunnels, it is said (without any proof) it was going to be the "a future abode for Adolf Hitler".
The only hypothetical reason for the existence of the golden train tunnel is that it was a part of the same project as the castle.
For a tourists, for any gold train aficionado the castle is a must.
This is why I'm sure they were wrong.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
It was announced yesterday that a new round of drilling is planned, and the results of this year's surveying efforts will be presented probably next Friday, by the already mentioned PBG Geophysical Exploration Ltd.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
To illustrate the importance of the castle.
If it was going to be a future Führer Headquarters, then a safe (from attacks of enemy bombers) place was needed for his Führersonderzug Amerika/Brandenburg.
Like this in Stępin-Cieszyn, Poland:
Hitler and Mussolini in front of the tunnel in Stępin-Cieszyn:
Another, almost a half kilometer long in Strzyżów, Poland:
Another one in Konewka:
sources: 1, 2, 3.
If it was going to be a future Führer Headquarters, then a safe (from attacks of enemy bombers) place was needed for his Führersonderzug Amerika/Brandenburg.
Like this in Stępin-Cieszyn, Poland:
Hitler and Mussolini in front of the tunnel in Stępin-Cieszyn:
Another, almost a half kilometer long in Strzyżów, Poland:
Another one in Konewka:
sources: 1, 2, 3.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
Well WM if you can't trust the city mayor where should a journalist be looking to get an accurate and truthful analysis of the position?wm wrote:It's a good question
I don't know it was the mayor - although any faith in career politicians is misplaced I would say..
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
So the tunnel complex at the castle was built to incorporate the hypothetical scenario that in a few years time Germany would be losing the war and and might need a particularly secret tunnel to accomodate one of the very few armoured trains that had been designed for combat duties in case one turned up loaded with stolen Polish gold and other valuables? As far as I know the tunnels in the castle complex were all narrow gauge. If that is correct it would have been necessary to increase the size of the gauge for a spur line to connect with the main line.wm wrote: The only hypothetical reason for the existence of the golden train tunnel is that it was a part of the same project as the castle.
For a tourists, for any gold train aficionado the castle is a must.
This is why I'm sure they were wrong.
Looking at the railway tunnel Hitler visited I believe that was bilt by the Todt organisation 1940/41 for a specific reason. Anyway this sort of speculation is virtually endless. Let's just leave it until the results are in and then we can revisit all this and see whose conclusions have stood the test. I really hope they find an armoured train -with or without anything on it - but experience of many similar finds tells me it regretfully isn't going to happen. If I'm wrong I shall be the first person to admit it.
Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'
No, the narration is it was going to be a Führer Headquarters or some other headquarters and it was accompanied by a bunker/tunnel for a train - as the other places were.
And the tunnel was used to hide something in the last days of the war - not because it was in the plan, but because the tunnel was there already.
The tunnels in the castle complex had nothing to do with train bunkers, their role was different, they only show that the project was a serious one.
I don't say anything of this is true - it's just one of the leading speculations.
We can't trust politicians by definition.
And if we want the truth we never shouldn't trust a single source, but crosscheck with other sources, and ask for a second or third opinion.
Journalists are there to do that for us for a fee.
If all they do is copy/paste of someone statement they are spurious. PR Newswire or any other distributor of press releases is sufficient.
And the tunnel was used to hide something in the last days of the war - not because it was in the plan, but because the tunnel was there already.
The tunnels in the castle complex had nothing to do with train bunkers, their role was different, they only show that the project was a serious one.
I don't say anything of this is true - it's just one of the leading speculations.
Ian Sayer wrote:Well WM if you can't trust the city mayor where should a journalist be looking to get an accurate and truthful analysis of the position?
We can't trust politicians by definition.
And if we want the truth we never shouldn't trust a single source, but crosscheck with other sources, and ask for a second or third opinion.
Journalists are there to do that for us for a fee.
If all they do is copy/paste of someone statement they are spurious. PR Newswire or any other distributor of press releases is sufficient.