Did Hitler kill anyone?

[ChristopherPerrien]

If Hitler had killed anyone. It would have been noted by him or by his supporters or opponents at some point between "Mein Kampf" and the rest of the NSDAP rise to power and his end in 1945. Absence of evidence in this case is fairly acceptable proof, as it would have been brought to light long ago.

I'm not sure absence of evidence is any evidence at all. He was in prison when mein kampf was written, I doubt he wanted to go back because of a murder he wrote down. Further: he didn't mention any siblings but one in mein kampf and portrayed his father as dutiful but warm and loving, something he was not.

You realize Germany was/is a very big country and in between WWI and the NSDAP coming to power and even afterward to a lesser extent , there were many many other political parties, members of the same, newspapers, agents of various interest, even Hitler's own rivals within the NSDAP who had a vested interest and more contemporary access to anything in existence now and were actively seeking such negative material. Where such information of such acts existed it would have been used against Hitler , IF IT EXISTED. If the various friends and enemies did
not find anything back then , it didn't happen.

[infinite_one]

If Hitler had killed anyone. It would have been noted by him or by his supporters or opponents at some point between "Mein Kampf" and the rest of the NSDAP rise to power and his end in 1945. Absence of evidence in this case is fairly acceptable proof, as it would have been brought to light long ago.

I'm not sure absence of evidence is any evidence at all. He was in prison when mein kampf was written, I doubt he wanted to go back because of a murder he wrote down. Further: he didn't mention any siblings but one in mein kampf and portrayed his father as dutiful but warm and loving, something he was not.

You realize Germany was/is a very big country and in between WWI and the NSDAP coming to power and even afterward to a lesser extent , there were many many other political parties, members of the same, newspapers, agents of various interest, even Hitler's own rivals within the NSDAP who had a vested interest and more contemporary access to anything in existence now and were actively seeking such negative material. Where such information of such acts existed it would have been used against Hitler , IF IT EXISTED. If the various friends and enemies did
not find anything back then , it didn't happen.

I must disagree with the logic, again, absence of proof is not proof at all.

Id imagine he killed during ww1 with his own rifle, its not hard to imagine regardless of the job he had within the german army.

My last point is, who is to say that it wasnt discovered and silenced? If they got away with nacht und nebel, they couldve covered up their fuhrer killing someone in cold blood.

Im not saying I disagree with the assessment, i just disagree with the method taken to arrive at that conclusion is all. Hitler, even in life, was a man of controversy.

[Sarge3525]

There is no evidence that he killed anyone after WW1.

Here is what we know with almost certainty (regarding comments on here).
- He did not kill his niece. The motive makes zero sense and in fact makes the opposite sense. Hitler was enthralled about this girl, ultra-possessive, absolutely crazy. It was literally the love of his life, whilst Eva Braun was just a trophy wife. Multiple sources state that Hitler became a vegetarian due to Geli Raubal's death, turning him off meat for the rest of his life. Its very likely he would have stayed with Geli Raubal as his mistress for the rest of his life had she not died.

- Hitler was no coward. Many events to show this.
The fact he was a decorated front line WW1 soldier. The fact he literally volunteered and did the most dangerous job in the military in WW1 (message runner). Literally all his surviving comrades praising his bravery (though some did find his patriotic obsession weird. Although the opposite number were not shocked by it -after all it was nothing out of the ordinary in the trenches of WW1-).
During the so called kampfzeit (early Nazi electoral period) he was also a ruthless leader of men who rose to the top of the Nazi party, not exactly a feat requiring feminine features in an environment dominated by violent virile men. He made speeches, was a rabble rouser in beer cellars, led the SA in battles against the communists brawlers, etc.
During WW2 he did pretty insane acts for a state leader....Like going to Paris I believe one day after France had surrendered, and going sightseeing with barely an escort. Any Frenchmen could have killed him in the streets. Or visiting the frontline in Poland & Russia, not far from where live firing was still going on.
Finally dying in his Bunker in Berlin 1945, instead of doing what any sane man would do and run away to save yourself.
So this idea Hitler was a coward I think can be put to rest.
'
My opinion about killings by Hitler:
- Hitler most likely killed people during WW1 since he participated in infantry/trench assaults.
He just didn't publicise his killings, like many soldiers who talk about the war. He probably just didn't find it appealing to open up at a dinner and say "I plunged my bayonet into an Englishman's neck and saw him dying vomitting all his blood".

This brings me to the next point:
Alot of what we dont know about Hitler was covered up very carefully I believe either by Bormann or the SS.
This is because when he was campaigning for chancellor of Germany, like any politician he did not want compromising information to get out. It is my honest opinion that murders (even during WW1 these are murders) he might have committed have been suppressed by loyalists.

Finally Hitler was not a man who liked killing if he didn't have to. He wasn't a man who enjoyed the act of killing.
Some people might laugh at this declaration, but you have to differentiate between enjoying killing and making decisions as a head of state. For example I don't think Obama or Bush Jr can personally enjoy killing someone, yet they both started wars (Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia) in which millions died (much less obviously for the Lybia intervention but still significantly).

Hitler was a head of state and as such whatever action involving killing (war, etc) was left to the appropriate people, not a head of state.

I also hear that people say that the night of the long knives was somehow Hitler orchestrating killings.
I think sources point out that whilst Hitler condoned putting down the SA, much of the killings were unknown to him and orchestrated by Nazis (like Bormann, Himmler, etc) who wanted to kill other Nazis for reasons of personal vendetta & power struggles. For example Roehm was considered by Hitler as one of his most personal friends, and I think until the end of his life he hated whoever killed Roehm. Roehm was presented as being a threat to the state, but this was probably a lie by Himmler clique to justify his killing to Hitler, who just rubberstamped the decision.
Hitler in that regard until his death was an extremely naive man about who was really loyal to him (he was very surprised about Himmler's betrayal in 1945 for instance).

There are some sources saying that Hitler was a pervert & pedophile, and also that he was vicious (IE: enjoying watching "enemies of the state" getting killed slowly and then watching tapes of that), but I just dont know if these are facts or fantasy assertions by "Allied psychologists" or post war sensationalists. Lets be honest there is alot of nonsense spread by anti-nazi people, and it just messes up the clear picture of history (for example I am still not sure if Hitler missed a testicle or if this is a fantasy, and so on).

[keith A]

From my reading he never saw action in the front line other than as a runner. A position that allowed him to garner medals without facing the enemy other than by shellfire. Throughout his life he was able to avoid actual physical involvement in personal combat. There are no instances of him fighting in any personal way, even pre-WW1. Himmler was supposed to have executed a Jewish prisoner but immediately was sick... in fact very few of the Nazi hierarchy were combat veterans (Roehm excepted). Heydrich apparently did fly in combat but during the Polish and Norwegian campaigns when aerial combat was limited.

[Sarge3525]

From my reading he never saw action in the front line other than as a runner.

He was an infantryman, 1st company, during one of the most violent battles of WW1 (Ypres), in which 40,000 newly enlisted German infantrymen died in 20 days. I quote:

Hitler's regiment entered the battle with 3,600 men and at its end mustered 611.[5] The regimental commander was killed and thereafter they were known as the Regiment List in his honor. By December Hitler's own company of 250 was reduced to 42. Biographer John Keegan claims that this experience drove Hitler to become aloof and withdrawn for the remaining years of war.[6] After the battle Hitler was promoted from Schütze (Private) to Gefreiter (Lance Corporal) and assigned to be a regimental message runner.

If that sounds to you like a peaceful non-combat experience, then your interpretation must be different than mine.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

There are no instances of him fighting in any personal way, even pre-WW1. Himmler was supposed to have executed a Jewish prisoner but immediately was sick... in fact very few of the Nazi hierarchy were combat veterans (Roehm excepted). Heydrich apparently did fly in combat but during the Polish and Norwegian campaigns when aerial combat was limited.

Don't forget Göring.

[keith A]

Sarge3525, sarcasm is indeed the lowest form of wit, I refer you to the excellent "Hitlers First War" by Thomas Weber. Hitler appears to have been absent during most of the major engagements fought by the List Regiment, which was itself rarely engaged during most of the major offensives of WW1.

I did indeed forget Goring.... for which I am embarrassed

[ChristopherPerrien]

Sarge3525, sarcasm is indeed the lowest form of wit, I refer you to the excellent "Hitlers First War" by Thomas Weber. Hitler appears to have been absent during most of the major engagements fought by the List Regiment, which was itself rarely engaged during most of the major offensives of WW1.

I did indeed forget Goring.... for which I am embarrassed

We have been though Weber(with the author present) years ago. His war record from various source never established he actually engage enemy troops. Which is common. 90% of of even front line soldiers never fire at the enemy and know they killed someone(Kersaw,IIRC), Combat is simply too confused and foggy for people to be much certain of anything.. There are only so many "cold blooded killers" who do so and many of them, first time, are accidents as well. Hitler's own comments fall in line with what be expected of a dispatch runner in WWI. And his own narrations are too "honest". I think if Hitler had killed anyone if he knew for certain in WWI and been certain of it, he would had said something, if only for the PR value, of some respect. He did not just cook up "Mein Kampf" , it happened.

Yea , Goering with 22 air victories obviously killed some people and knew he did.

[ChristopherPerrien]

There are no instances of him fighting in any personal way, even pre-WW1. Himmler was supposed to have executed a Jewish prisoner but immediately was sick... in fact very few of the Nazi hierarchy were combat veterans (Roehm excepted). Heydrich apparently did fly in combat but during the Polish and Norwegian campaigns when aerial combat was limited.

Let us not muddy the waters. The story goes Himmler witnessed an execution of a Russian prisoner and became sick not that he actually pulled the trigger. Himmler was a bureaucrat and no veteran of combat in WWI. The war ended before he finished training. Though he was present at the scene of the Beer Hall Putsch, and witness to some street fighting, he was not an active "participant" in the same, along with that he became a secretary/party functionary for the NSDAP and then the SS.

Heydrich certainly had the fortitude and mind-set to kill physically people and authorized quite a few killings, so he certainly was a murderer. And as mentioned he did earn an "Observer's badge in the Luftwaffe, which is 5 missions, I don't know if those mission involved him actually shooting or bombing. He did also charge his assassins with gun in hand attempting to kill them before he collapsed from his injuries.

in fact very few of the Nazi hierarchy were combat veterans

This statement, you would have to support with hard info. For the opposite is true, IIRC. Being a WWI veteran was almost considered a requirement , barring a few exceptions ( Goebbels- disability) or being too young to have seen combat was considered (Himmler, Speer) as the fact that the NSDAP movement was considered a movement of young*. Just about all NSDAP leaders were veterans, and quite a fair percentage saw combat(+50% I would feel safe in saying). Which was a default itself really, since every male of fighting age joined or was conscripted for WWI. It was hard in Germany not to be a veteran of WWI, or not see combat, if you were old enough. And there was a high percentage of army troops in the combat zone, given the time, not 'in the rear with the gear" or out of artillery range.

*"I say, "Come over to me", and if you do, that is well, and if you do not , We have your children , so it is of no importance". To paraphase Hitler IIRC.

[keith A]

Apologies, I was not clear. I meant Himmler, Goebbels and Bormann...if I'd thought I would have remembered both Hess and Goering were combat pilots and may have killed people although I doubt they thought of it as that, and I suppose Ernst Roehm could also be considered in that group. I suspect he did kill during the first world war. Likewise Gregor Strasser. As you correctly state the first three were either too young or medically unfit, although Bormann was later convicted of the murder (with accomplices) of an unarmed political opponent.

I understood the initial enquiry to be slanted towards impressions of Hitlers bravery, and combat experience. I still am of the belief that although he may have fired a rifle at the enemy he was never in a position to meet one face-to-face. He did witness death and I believe that made him avoid situations where he could kill or be killed, hence his avoidance of promotion above the rank of senior private and desire to remain behind the lines at RHQ. As has been said absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, There are no recorded remarks by him that indicate he did kill. To do so would have forced him to accept responsibility for something and there is little in his life to show that he was other than an irresponsible, sly, bombastic clown.....a sort of German Boris Johnson

[Mauser K98k]

...I still am of the belief that although he may have fired a rifle at the enemy he was never in a position to meet one face-to-face...

I think we can be sure than AH never fought an enemy soldier in hand-to-hand combat. Otherwise, he would certainly have told the world about it
to promote his image as a warrior-king.

[fwilliam]

Gang;

How about niece Geli Rabaul in 1932 or 32?

More seriously it is hard to believe that Hitler who spent 48 of 52 months in the trenches as an infantry grunt didn't kill a British Tommy.

Eismann

[fwilliam]

Sarge;

From your title it is hard to believe that you would posit that as a runner at the front for 48 months in combat that Hitler didn't kill anyonesince a "runner" in WWI was one of the most dangerous jobs a grunt could have. Clearly, a mere corporal who received the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class didn't do something to deserve such decorations principally because the IC 1st class was almost always reserved for officers.

Hard to find anything positive about Adolf Hitler but 1) he truly loved and was devoted to his mother and 2) he was personally brave.

Eismann

[keith A]

Two points to make. He was a runner between RHQ and forward units, his front line exposure was very infrequent and his unit not often in major actions. Bavarian units were not highly-rated by the German General staff.The medals have been shown to be a reward given by HQ officers to their staff, often with little to substantiate their actions other than a rather incestuous culture of self-citation.

Also he was not a corporal. He was a senior private. A corporal is an unteroffizier not a gefreiter, two ranks above gefreiter.

In truth his medals and his rank are an example of a cynical manipulation of the system of awarding medals. To be with his regiment for four years, in the field and to fail to reach any rank of note would indicate a lack of education (which is not true) or a desire to remain inconspicuous, to receive so many medals and fail to gain promotion is almost unique. Usually low-ranking award holders are only in action briefly....and don't get promotion because they are wounded and invalided out, dead, taken prisoner or hostilities come to an end soon thereafter. Promotion on the front line was regular and frequent due to casualties. Hitler remained in the rear area throughout the war. Promotion would have led to responsibility which he did not want, and possibly realising this might force him into the front line.

On the subject of AH as man-killer he was not in the trenches very often, had poor eyesight and from the reading I have done never charged an enemy trench. I am not sure how he would be able to kill an enemy when he spent most of the war getting as far away from them as was possible. Most soldiers take part in actions but very few are able to lay claim to a dead enemy, a myopic despatch runner would have few opportunities and my feeling is that he did not want to be in killing range of anyone. I am not stating he was a coward but that he was careful for his own skin. He was a killer but the only people he killed were his wife and himself....another instance of his failure to accept reponsibility.

regards

Keith

[fwilliam]

Keith;

A well written and reasoned response. Still, the fact remains Hitler was at the front 48 out of 52 month save for occasional leave and hospitalization. A runner was most assuredly not the same as a rifleman in the trenches but the sheer scale of the slaughter that trench warfare produced makes that length of service alone an achievement. He wasn't avoiding anything and did his duty. As for the German High Command not respecting the combat effectiveness of Bavarian regiments, that couldn't possibly have resulted from inborn prejudices of the Prussian officer corps, could it? In any event, that has nothing to do with Hitler and his performance of duties.

As for "corporal Hitler, " I was merely paraphrasing Hindenburg's characterization of Hitler as "that Bohemian corporal." What is documented is that Hitler refused promotions because, as you note, he did not want added responsibilities that come with promotions and he did not wish to leave his unit.

I am not praising or singly out young Hitler (although much older than his colleagues in the trenches), just noting that even though not a German citizen, he nevertheless volunteered and served faithfully.

As for the medals, there isn't an army in the world where the awarding of decorations, especially for higher ranks, isn't frequently as political as justifiable. As in "Tail Gunner" Joe Mccarthy, etc.

Oh, and along with Eva Braun, don't forget his dog, Blondi.

Bill