Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#16

Post by ManfredV » 27 Apr 2016, 20:20

Who are "ethnic Germans"? Those who speak german as mother language? What about the german speaking swiss people? German language and descendants of old alemannis but since 1499/1648 independent from HRE. What about the Luxemburger? Their language Letzeburgish is a german dialect (mosel franconian group) and Luxemburg was part of HRE and German confederation until 1866.
What about Jews in Germany and Austria, who spoke german, had german and austrian passports, regarded themselves as Germans, and fought bravely in WWI for their fatherland?
Or does german mean: speaking german as mother language and feeling oneself as German?
Or does it mean: accepting german civilisation and society? In that case many NPD and AFD voters would fail :-)
It is not so easy to answer and we have of course different defintions of "german ethnicy".

MMTB
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: 16 Apr 2016, 09:11
Location: Australia

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#17

Post by MMTB » 28 Apr 2016, 10:15

How I look at this, is an ethnic German that is racially German, descendant of one of the many ancient German tribes, like the Alemmanis, goths(Osthrogoths and the Visigoths), Lombards, Saxons, Franks, Bavarii etc and speak German. Not quite sure how many in the formally German province of Aslace-Lorraine in France consider themselves German.


ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#18

Post by ManfredV » 28 Apr 2016, 18:39

"Racially german"? And don't mix up germanic tribes with Germans. Bavarii f.e. were established in 5./6. century when german tribes migrated into today Altbayern and Austria and mixed with celts and other who lived there. Germans are a mixture of Germanics, Celts, Slaves and others. And about Alemanni in Switzerland: Some DNS-analyses claim that originally most swisse people are of celtic origin and mixed with germanic immigrants and others. And today Dutchmen and Flemings are descendants of germanic Franks and Celts, but they don't speak German and no one would claim they are "Germans".
German language, living in german or originally frankish ruled areas, "subjects" and lieges to Carolingian, Ottonian and later other HRE-rulers, people regarding themselves as german etc. - maybe it is a mixture of several origins and ideas.
Well, not so easy for us Germans :-)

MMTB
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: 16 Apr 2016, 09:11
Location: Australia

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#19

Post by MMTB » 29 Apr 2016, 06:05

FYI

Here is an extensive history of the Volksdeutsch in Slovenia.

http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/handl ... sequence=1

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#20

Post by Futurist » 29 Apr 2016, 06:27

MMTB wrote:FYI

Here is an extensive history of the Volksdeutsch in Slovenia.

http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/handl ... sequence=1
Merci beaucoup! :D

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#21

Post by Marcus » 20 Aug 2016, 20:55

A number of posts primarily discussing the pre 20th century peoples in present day Poland were moved to the existing discussion at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&t=171743

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#22

Post by michael mills » 08 Sep 2016, 13:57

Poland: 0.148 million
The "ethnic Germans" who are a recognised minority in Poland today, mostly living in Upper Silesia, are the descendants of German citizens who after 1945 were "verified" as "autochthones", that is, persons of Polish origin.

So some of those persons who after 1945 claimed to be ethnically Polish are today claiming to be ethnically German. I guess their ethnic identity depends on what is most convenient at a particular time.

Last month I made my second visit to Poland, this time visiting the north as well, Torun, Malbork and Gdansk. I noticed that the former German presence is very much in evidence there, for example inscriptions and gravestones in churches. there appears to be no attempt to conceal that presence, which is played up in the presentations made by guides to tourists.

The once despised Teutonic Knights seem to have become a tourist attraction. In Torun and Malbork one can see guys dressed up as Teutonic Knights, and one can buy reproductions of Teutonic flags, surcoats, shields and helmets.

CroGer
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: 27 Oct 2017, 20:27
Location: Germany/Croatia

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#23

Post by CroGer » 30 Oct 2017, 05:10

Hi

I've been working on demographics studies for quite some time.
Here is the number of ethnic germans outside of Germany. But they are for the year 1939-1940.


Former Austrians

Hungary: 477.153 (1930, didn't seem to increase, compared to Hungary in 1941)
Annexed part of "Tschechei": 3.408.449 (193.793 czech became german citizens though, so before that the number was 3,254.656)
Germans withing "Protectorat of Bohemia and Moravia": 225.000
Germans withing Slovakia and Carpato-Ukraine: 128.000 (Karpatendeutsche)

Now the tricky part.

Germans in Yugoslavia:
Banovina Croatia: 105.000
Banovina Drava (Slovenia): 50.448
Danuvska Banovina (today Vojvodina): 439.885
= 595.333

This is the north of yugoslavia, that was part of austro-hungary. It is unrealistic that more that 1000-2000 of germans lived in other parts.

Romania: 786.000
South Tyrol: 196.717 (1921: 193.281, 1931: 195.117. Annual growth: 0,098618. x 8 = 100,788944%

Former Empirial Germans & Poles in Germany:

Belgium & Denmark
I have no data on how many of them emigrated after the treaty of versaille. But since they didn't live in an overly hostile or alien enviroment, one can assume that most stayed. So I'll do the usual, I'll take the middle.
Eupen-Malmedy: 49.000 (1920). 1939 + belgian population growth = 54.638 . Middle: 51.820
Süd-Schleswig: 40.020 (1920)- 1940 + danish birthrate = 46.557. Middle: 43.290

Alsace-Lorraine: 1.634.000 (population after the conquest was 1.874.000, 240.000 were resetted to France as frenchmen. So I assume the rest counted as ethnic germans to the government)

Poland: 783.748 (716.129 in german sector, 67.619 "Galiziendeutsche" in sowjet sector)

Ethnic Germans in the USSR & Baltic Countries

Germans in the USSR:
1926: 1.238.549 (total soviet population: 147.926.015)
1937: Soviet Census. No Nationalities were recorded. But the population increased to 162.000.000. So apply the population-increase of 10,2% you've had 1.364.932

The population grew by 0,92764378% per years.
So in 1939 you would have had 1.390.255

Baltic Countries:
Estonia (1934): 16.346 (there was no substential population growth in estonia, and some germans emigrated, so I assume that in 1939 the population remained the same)
Latvia: 62.144
Lithuania: 88.568 (although you also have 34.337 "Memels", whoever they were...)
Overall: 167.058




Conclusion:


Czechoslovakia: 3.567.665
Hungary: 477.153
Romania: 748.000
Yugoslavia: 595.333
South Tyrol: 196.717
(5.584.706 "austrians")
France: 1.634.000
Belgium: 51.820
Denmark: 43.290
Poland: 783.748
Baltic Countries: 167.058
USSR: 1.364.932

= 9.629.716

Germans outside germany now???

The german minorities in eastern europe were nearly wiped out.
The only countrys where they stayed in substantial numbers were Romania and the Soviet Union, but as 3rd class citizens.
Allegedly Poland allowed 1 million and czechoslovakia 200.000 germans to stay, but I assume that these were mainly ethnic poles/czechs that allowed themselves to be "germanized" during the occupation.

Currently, 3 million "Spätaussiedler" live in Germany, so people of german heritage from eastern europe that claim german heritage or "Reichs-citizenship".
One can assume that a lot of "Spätaussiedler" from Poland that came to Germany during the 90's are Silesians that enlisted in the "Volksliste". Aproximately 1,27 million ethic poles became "Volksliste"-germans during WW2, especially kashubians and silesians.

In Hungary a lot of germans were magyarized. They had to change their name and just forget that they were germans. One of my former girlfriends was only told in her twenties that her family was german before 1945 and had a different - very german - surname. So in some countries german ethnicity became a secret that some didn't even tell their own children.
Noone really knows how many of the ethnic germans of the east stayed. Countries that were allies of germany were usually more sympathetic.


But every year a lot of germans emigrate from germany for economic reasons. Their targets are primarily Switzerland, Austria, Scandinavia, Kanada, Australia and the USA. Add pensioneers and millionairs that move out of gemany and you've got about 2 million that have left the country. Over 220.000 Germans live in switzerland alone, especially so called "High potentials".

While Merkel is doing her "thing", Germany has been experiencing a "brain drain" for over a decade, and the government interestingly does nothing to motivate these people to move back.
Sperg

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#24

Post by ManfredV » 30 Oct 2017, 15:18

"While Merkel is doing her "thing", Germany has been experiencing a "brain drain" for over a decade, and the government interestingly does nothing to motivate these people to move back." Really? There's no brain drain, only some "very top scientists" went to USA. German "high potentials" work in other european countries and even overseas, but people from there work in Germany. Thats usual in modern Europe and a modern western world. Many germans live in Switzerland because Switzerland needs working people of all qualifiactions and pays high wages. But also many swiss people live in Germany. But not only "high potentials" go to Switzerland. Many people from german Bodensee region and Southern Baden work in Switzerland, but swiss (and austrian) gastronomy also has many waitresses and cooks from all over Germany.
And many french people from Alsace and Lorraine cross the border for working in Germany.
You'll find a german doctor in Zurich, but a swiss engineer in Stuttgart, a waitress from Saxony in a swiss restaurant but an austrian cook in a Munich restaurant, a german teacher in Nancy but a labourer from Forbach working in a Saarbrücken factory.
That's no "brain drain" or "false politics" of Merkel. Thats Europe.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#25

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Oct 2017, 19:50

You can count like almost 80 millions of germans ("volkdeutsche") in 1939 in Europe. Germany itself was ~70 millions, and abroad you could count like 10.
By now, like 70 millions ? I dont know the part of turkish and other immigrated people in Germany today.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#26

Post by ManfredV » 30 Oct 2017, 21:05

Data from "Statistisches Bundesamt":
Germans and non Germans: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten ... bev02.html
Foreigners in Germany: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten ... ation.html
German authorities have no exact data how many german citizens live abroad (permant and temporary) at all, but 1.14 million live in European Union and Switzerland.
And there are small german speaking minorities in Belgium (76 000) and Danemark (15 - 20 000) who are of course citizens of these countries. German speaking french citizens in Alsace-Lorraine are not considers as "germans".

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#27

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Oct 2017, 22:43

Thanks for the site Manfred !
Here https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten ... lecht.html
we can see that almost 20 millions of Germans are not "fully german-blood" ! So indeed like 60 millions of "volkdeutsche" now in Germany. Less than i thought indeed.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#28

Post by ManfredV » 31 Oct 2017, 00:54

It means: 10 million foreign people without german passport and more than 8 million german citizens with "migration background". This means they semselves or one or both parents were not born as german citizens. Children of "mixed marriages" (between a german and a foreigner) and those who were naturalised (f.e. Turks born in Germany). But this number also includes "german ethnic" imigrants from eastern europe and USSR, so called "Spätaussiedler". The other 60 millions are those who were born as germans and their parents had german passports too.
And of course there's neither a "german blood" nor a "german race". Historically germans are a mixture of germanics, celts, slaves and others. "German"
was s.o. who spoke german as mother language, lived in Germany, was subject of a german king or prince or belonged to german culture.
German and middle european history is not so easy. And strange enough: "German citizenship" was founded 1913. Before people were citizens of Prussia, Bavaria, Badenia, Oldenburg, Hessen-Darmstadt etc.

CroGer
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: 27 Oct 2017, 20:27
Location: Germany/Croatia

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#29

Post by CroGer » 31 Oct 2017, 02:34

DavidFrankenberg wrote:You can count like almost 80 millions of germans ("volkdeutsche") in 1939 in Europe. Germany itself was ~70 millions, and abroad you could count like 10.
By now, like 70 millions ? I dont know the part of turkish and other immigrated people in Germany today.

The Population of the state of Germany 1937 was 69.316.526
The Population of Austria was 6.650.306
So combined 75.966.832
That number is for 1939.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksz%C3 ... Reich_1939

To include all people of german ethnicity I repeat:
Czechoslovakia: 3.567.665
Hungary: 477.153
Romania: 748.000 (later 214.000 transferred to Wartheland*)
Yugoslavia: 595.333
South Tyrol: 196.717 (later 83.000 transferred to Wartheland*)
(5.584.706 "austrians")
France: 1.634.000
Belgium: 51.820
Denmark: 43.290
Poland: 783.748 (all but 13.524 became part of "Großdeutschland" by 1940*)
Baltic Countries: 167.058 (later 123.000 transferred to Wartheland*)
USSR: 1.364.932 (later 250.000 transferred to Wartheland*)

= 9.629.716
= 85.596.548

*See "Heim Ins Reich-programm

I forget the Luxembourgers. I doesn't matter how Luxembourgers consider themselves now. Luxembourg was a part of the German Federation until the Luxembourg-crisis in 1867, where Luxembourg was seperated from the German Federation in an attempt to solve the conflict between France and Prussia after the Austro-Prussian war.
For the Nazis, the Luxembourgers were ethnic germans.They served both in the Wehrmacht, as well as the SS, despite not in high numbers.


It is self explanatory that after WW2 nobody wanted to be "german" as associated with the state. Even the austrians called themselves "victims" even though Hitler was austrian, the Anschluß was greeted with imense support, and 13% of the SS was austrian, of those 40% were KZ-staff and 75% KZ-commanders. After 1945, everybody who could tried to disavowe any sympathy for Germany, and these sentiments have become part of national idenities in the following 72 years.

So add 297.000 for Luxembourg

So Germans in the "Großdeutsche Reich": 83.036.821
Germans living in 1940 allied or occupied europe: 1.684.203
Germans withing german occupied or allied europe: 84.721.024

Germans living in the USSR in 1941: 1.172.514


You might also include the swiss germans, even though the national socials never managed to gain a foothold in switzerland.
Switzerlands Population was 4.2 Million at that time. 73% of the swiss population is german. So 3.066.000

Germans in europe in total: 88.959.548


-----------

Topic: Today's Germany and the "migration background".

Situation in 2013 in the Federal Republic of Germany.

Partially taken from the study
"Bevölkerung mit Migrationshintergrund– Ergebnisse des Mikrozensus 2013 –" from destais, available on the Internet.
Note that I consider statistics before 2013 as much more reliable than statistics released after 2013. For example until 2015 german politicians claimed that the muslim population i Germany was "only 4 Million", even though a study in 2009, "Muslimisches Leben in NRW ( http://www.cig-bockum-hoevel.de/downloa ... en_nrw.pdf ) concluded that between 1.269.012 to 1.485.344 muslims live in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia alone, and that this is 33,1% of the muslim population of Germany. So according to this study, you had 3.833.873 to 4.487.444 muslims in 2009.
Considering the immigration from islamic countries and the birthrate, I highly doubt that the number was "just 4 million" like most politicians claimed. So I assume that the german government has started to purposely misinform the german public.


FRG 2013: 80.244.000

Ethnic Germans (both parents of german ethnicity): ~ 64.000.000 (79.76%)
"Spätaussiedler" (immigrants of german ethnicity that immigrated since 1990): 3.016.000
So ethnic german citizens: ~ 67.000.000 in 2013 (83,5%).
Note that every year about 200.000-300.000 more ethnic germans die than are born.

"Germans with migration background". (Can be a german with one non-german parent)
Partly ethnically (or linguistically, FFS) german:
Austrian: 346.000
Luxembourgians: 24.000
Swiss: 77.000

(Culturally) Western/Northern europeans:
Dutch: ~ 350.000
French: ~ 185.000
Belgian: 23.000
Skandinavians: 51.000
UK & Ireland: 184.000
North American: 171.000
"British Comonwealth": 24.0000
Estonians&Latvians: 34.000
Finns: 14.000
Italians: 783.000
Spanish: 170.000
Portuguese: 130.000

Western/Northern europeans in FRG 2013 = 2.566.000 (3,2%)

Eastern Europeans

Poles: 1.041.000
Hungarians/Czechs/Slovaks: 302.000
Croatians & Bosniaks: 494.000
Russian & Ukrainian: 1.483.000
Serbs: 607.000
Romanians/Bulgarians: 700.000
Greeks: 761.000

Eastern Eeuropeans in FRG 2013: 5.388.000 (6,7%)

Non-europeans in FRG 2013: 5.290.000 (6,6%)

= 80.244.000
-----------

Some numbers of german citizens (not membes of minorities) living abroad:

Belgium: 20.000
Luxembourg: 13.000
Switzerland: 298.000
Austria: 218.000
Denmark: 25.000
Finnland: 6.000
Sweden: 70.000
Norway: 25.000
Alsace-Lorraine: 67.000

= 742.000 german citizens living in these countries alone.
If I would include german citizens living in france, italy, spain, and the english speaking countries, the number would be about 2 million.
These germans citizens go there not to work as waitresses, but because wages and working conditions are way better there then in their home country.
Especially doctors, engineers and scientists often leave Germany. Germany IS suffereing a brain drain and there are countless articles about it.

btw.
I collected this data in 2013, so I can't give you the sources to all these numbers. But you can find everything by doing your own research on the internet.
Last edited by CroGer on 31 Oct 2017, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
Sperg

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

#30

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 31 Oct 2017, 03:19

CroGer wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:You can count like almost 80 millions of germans ("volkdeutsche") in 1939 in Europe. Germany itself was ~70 millions, and abroad you could count like 10.
By now, like 70 millions ? I dont know the part of turkish and other immigrated people in Germany today.

The Population of the state of Germany 1937 was 69.316.526
The Population of Austria was 6.650.306
So combined 75.966.832
That number is for 1939.
Thank you. I agree with your post. Indeed i already calculated (years ago) the total german population in Europe for 1939 at 90 millions ; but i dont know why, i just checked on internet and found the 70 million figure which only concerns Germany without Austria and stupidly copied it there...
Note that I consider statistics before 2013 as much more reliable than statistics released after 2013. For example until 2015 german politicians claimed that the muslim population i Germany was "only 4 Million", even though a study in 2009, "Muslimisches Leben in NRW ( http://www.cig-bockum-hoevel.de/downloa ... en_nrw.pdf ) concluded that between 1.269.012 to 1.485.344 muslims live in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia alone, and that this is 33,1% of the muslim population of Germany. So according to this study, you had 3.833.873 to 4.487.444 muslims in 2009.
Considering the immigration from islamic countries and the birthrate, I highly doubt that the number was "just 4 million" like most politicians claimed. So I assume that the german government has started to purposely misinform the german public.
Nazi government was hiding his jewish genocide ; i guess actual government is hiding his european genocide.

Post Reply

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”