Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

[David Thompson]

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[CroGer]

The Population of the state of Germany 1937 was 69.316.526
The Population of Austria was 6.650.306
So combined 75.966.832
That number is for 1939.

[...]
Czechoslovakia: 3.567.665
Hungary: 477.153
Romania: 748.000 (later 214.000 transferred to Wartheland*)
Yugoslavia: 595.333
South Tyrol: 196.717 (later 83.000 transferred to Wartheland*)
France: 1.634.000
Belgium: 51.820
Denmark: 43.290
Poland: 783.748 (all but 13.524 became part of "Großdeutschland" by 1940*)
Luxembourg: 297.000
Danzig: 415.000
= 8.809.726

Germans in occupied or allied europe: 85.136.034
Germans in the USSR: 1.172.514

Germans in war zone: 86.308.538

Germans in switzerland: 3.066.000

= 89.374.548


-----------

Sorry, I forgot the 415.000 germans in Danzig.
The numbers above are now more accurate.

[DavidFrankenberg]

It is very close to 90 millions. Thank you very much for your work Groger.

[history1]

[...] Sorry, I forgot the 415.000 germans in Danzig.
The numbers above are now more accurate.

Where from did you get this number?
This tables are telling something different:

1939: 250 000 inhabitants

Sources:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk#Demografia
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludno%C5% ... a%C5%84ska

[CroGer]

German version

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_Stadt_Danzig

1939: 415.000

english version

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

1923 est. 366,730

polish version
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolne_Miasto_Gda%C5%84sk

Liczba ludności (1934): 408 000

Danzig was more than just a city. It was a city state with a territory of 1914 km². As a comparism: the city of Berlin is only 892 km² big

[history1]

Thanks for the reply, CroGer, but in future be more specific what you´re talking about.
Danzig ≠ Freie Stadt Danzig!
You wrote "Sorry, I forgot the 415.000 germans in Danzig."

[Knouterer]

I don't think the whole concept of "ethnic Germans" made much sense in 1937, and I'm certain it's practically meaningless today. I'm Dutch, my wife is German, is our daughter still an "ethnic German"? Who knows?

More to the point, who cares?

As somebody has rightly said, civilization is the process whereby the category of people considered as "us" grows ever bigger and the group of people considered as "them" grows ever smaller, until there is no one left in the latter category.

[ManfredV]

Switzerland separated from Holy Roman Empire de facto 1499 and de jure 1648. And Switzerland has of course four languages, not only german. The Netherlands separated 1648. Austria´s segregation was a process for several decades or even centuries, they were "kicked out" 1866.
So: german speaking Swiss, Luxemburgers, Austrians, Liechtensteiners and Dutch - "ethnic Germans"? Does someone claim that french speaking swiss people are "French living outside France"? When German Kaiserreich occupied Alsace-Lorraine, they were surprised that many people were german native speakers but felt as french citoyens and disliked Kaiserreich.
Holy Roman Empire was larger than german speaking area. And german speaking areas segregated or came under controll of other states. Switzerland is a nation of four mother languages. Germany has it's Sorbs and Danes, Austria has Slovenes and many Austrians esp. in Vienna have also Czech ancestors.
So lets better talk about German citizens, german native tongue speaking areas (Deutscher Sprachraum) and cultural identy (feeling german and regarding one self as german).
Today, many german citizens live in Switzerland and European Union and even all over the world, temporalily and permanent, but much more foreigners live also temporalily or permanent in Germany. EU-citizens and Turks f.e. for working, refugees from Syria, and so on.
Thats a modern world and I'm glad to be citizen of Germany and EU.
Cem Özdemir ( politician) and Mezut Özil (footballer): both sons of turkish imigrants but german citizens, Özil plays for german national team and Özdemir might be a minister soon.
Sarah Wagenknecht ( politician) born in Germay, german mother and iranian father.
Roberto Hilbert (footballer), german married with an eritriean wife, their children are germans and german citizens.
And so on.

[CroGer]

Switzerland separated from Holy Roman Empire de facto 1499 and de jure 1648. And Switzerland has of course four languages, not only german. The Netherlands separated 1648. Austria´s segregation was a process for several decades or even centuries, they were "kicked out" 1866.
So: german speaking Swiss, Luxemburgers, Austrians, Liechtensteiners and Dutch - "ethnic Germans"? Does someone claim that french speaking swiss people are "French living outside France"? When German Kaiserreich occupied Alsace-Lorraine, they were surprised that many people were german native speakers but felt as french citoyens and disliked Kaiserreich.
Holy Roman Empire was larger than german speaking area. And german speaking areas segregated or came under controll of other states. Switzerland is a nation of four mother languages. Germany has it's Sorbs and Danes, Austria has Slovenes and many Austrians esp. in Vienna have also Czech ancestors.
So lets better talk about German citizens, german native tongue speaking areas (Deutscher Sprachraum) and cultural identy (feeling german and regarding one self as german).
Today, many german citizens live in Switzerland and European Union and even all over the world, temporalily and permanent, but much more foreigners live also temporalily or permanent in Germany. EU-citizens and Turks f.e. for working, refugees from Syria, and so on.
Thats a modern world and I'm glad to be citizen of Germany and EU.
Cem Özdemir ( politician) and Mezut Özil (footballer): both sons of turkish imigrants but german citizens, Özil plays for german national team and Özdemir might be a minister soon.
Sarah Wagenknecht ( politician) born in Germay, german mother and iranian father.
Roberto Hilbert (footballer), german married with an eritriean wife, their children are germans and german citizens.
And so on.

There's another one who doesn't understand the difference between "german ethnicity" and "state of germany". If somebody has a problem with the term "german ethnicity", since sympathy for Germany in smaller german-speaking nations has basically been put under a taboo since WW2, you can exchange that with "liguistically german".


I haven't read your entire article, since it is apparently worthless. I just saw you talk about Mesut Özil, which is totally unrelated to WW2. This forum is about WW2, specifically the axis.
What's important is who the Nazis considered german, they did not consider dutch or flemish people german, hence they didn't implement conscription in those counties.

[Sheldrake]

These are the figures from the Lingodata website.

Officially, there are six German speaking countries in Europe:
Germany - with more than 80 million speakers
Austria - 8 million
Switzerland - 4.6 million
Belgium - 75.000 people
Luxembourg - 390.000people
Liechtenstein - 35,000 people
In addition, German has official status and is a recognised minority language in the following countries:

Italy (Bolzano/Südtirol)
France (Alsatian)
Czech Republic
Hungary
Denmark
Poland (Silesia)
Russia
Romania
Slovakia
Vatican City

Approximately 16 per cent of the European Union's population speak German.

However, the question was phrased in terms of ethnicity - which is a phrase more suited to the 1930s than the 21st century. The Nazis believed that being German was a matter of descent not culture. Arguably the most assimilated jewish population in Europe could not be German. The modern world takes a more individually oriented approach to identity, whether cultural or national identity or even gender.

Germany has been a member of the EEC and EU for over half a century, which has had a commitment to ensure freedom of movement between member states.

What proportion of the Germans living in Poland have parents of mixed cultures or genetic background? The Polish guide who took me around the fortress Kustrin had a German grandparent. Does that disqualify her as being Polish? Or the some 50,000 children born to the British servicemen and women who married Germans during the occupation and Cold war?

Mehmet Ozil is German who represents his country at the highest level in his sport. A third generation German of Turkish descendent. Which statistic applies to him?

Alscace has a substantial German speaking populations, but there is no appetite to be German and most of individual Alscatians see themselves as French.

[Knouterer]

There's another one who doesn't understand the difference between "german ethnicity" and "state of germany".

.

What you don't seem to understand is that the term "ethnic Germans" is essentially meaningless. The Nazis considered certain people to be "Germans" and others not, but their criteria were haphazard, imprecise and far from scientific.

They also included a lot of people who did NOT want to be Germans, like the Luxembourgers, who in 1941 boycotted a census designed to trick them into admitting that they were. In fact the Nazis theselves were clearly not too sure of the German roots of the Luxembourgers, because they found it necessary to force people with French-sounding names to "Germanize" them and to impose fines for saying "merci".

Today, of course, it would be absurd to tell the tens of thousands of Luxembourgers with one or more Portuguese or Italian grandparents that they are "ethnic Germans" descending from some "Germanic tribe". Even if they speak fluent German.

[CroGer]

There's another one who doesn't understand the difference between "german ethnicity" and "state of germany".

.

What you don't seem to understand is that the term "ethnic Germans" is essentially meaningless. The Nazis considered certain people to be "Germans" and others not, but their criteria were haphazard, imprecise and far from scientific.

They also included a lot of people who did NOT want to be Germans, like the Luxembourgers, who in 1941 boycotted a census designed to trick them into admitting that they were. In fact the Nazis theselves were clearly not too sure of the German roots of the Luxembourgers, because they found it necessary to force people with French-sounding names to "Germanize" them and to impose fines for saying "merci".

Today, of course, it would be absurd to tell the tens of thousands of Luxembourgers with one or more Portuguese or Italian grandparents that they are "ethnic Germans" descending from some "Germanic tribe". Even if they speak fluent German.

"Ethnically german" is meaningless. Ethnical italian, too? Ethnical croatian as well?
In case you haven't heard bout it, the entire 19th and 20th century had wars that were fought over "ethnicities". Many countries were on the verge of civil wars because of "ethnicities". The Habsburg Empire & a lone gunmen started WW1 because of ethnicities.
The question of "Ethnicity" is one of the most important of the 19th and 20th century. And no, the germans are not the only ethnicity that got "mixed" with others over the centuries.

Try to argue with a croatian nationalist and a serbian nationalists about who the bosniaks are....

So how is "ethnically german" essentially meaningless?


Many germans from germany also tried to advoid the military conscription and fled to different countrys. So?

I don't want to repeat myself all over again. You apparently read my post, and still wrote this reply, so it apparently fell on deaf ears.

"Today" - didn't I say that this forum is not about "today"?

In fact the Nazis theselves were clearly not too sure of the German roots of the Luxembourgers, because they found it necessary to force people with French-sounding names to "Germanize" them and to impose fines for saying "merci".

They also found it necessary for germans with slavic names to germanize them - or not. One of the worst war criminals of the Nazis: "Odilo Globocnik". Austrian.
Then again Angela Merkel's grandfather changed his name from "Kazmierczak" zu "Merkel".

The one thing that you might have missed is that the Nazis had a revisionist approach to forming their new germany. It is expressed several times in their speeches and writings that a unification of a german national state had been blocked after the 30y war. Because of the fact that for 300 years "Germany" had been split apart into small states that were effectiely puppet states, many "ethnic germans" have been alienated from their culture, and in some cases didn't even speak german.
Which is one of the reason for the "Volksliste".

The approach of the Nazi government to who is german and who isn't, effectively meaning who is supposed to serve in the conscrition military, seems arbitrary. But it isn't. The reason why it seems arbitrary is that the Nazis tried to do too many things at the same time:

a) form new german nation
b) get rid of the jews
c) gain Lebensraum
d) win the war

In a time span that was too short. The occupation of europe by Nazis Germany only lasted 5-2 years, before everything errupted into chaos (which basically happened in 1943).

Is everybody aware of the fact that 1940 - the year germany occupied whole western and north eastern europe - , 1941, the year Operation Barbarossa started, and 1943 - the year the sh*** hit the fan in the east - is a very short time?

Now I don't want to go in depth about counter-propaganda by the western allies. But even in WW1 did the western allies drop pamphlets to make the bavarians bail out of the "prussian war". They certainly supported resistance in every part of the german occupied europe.
The reluctance of many Luxembourgers to feel loyal to the government in Berlin can also been seen as something very rational - they didn't want to fight & die in the war.

And I certainly don't want to go in depth about post WW2-narratives.


If the Nazi empire would have lasted longer, some parts of the population in the occupied territories would have been subject to reeducation, or in other words germanization. Which sounds horrible, but many nations back then did this to their ethnically/linguistically different parts of the population - forbid them to use their language in public, or have public schooling in only one language.

[Sheldrake]

The Nazis' didn't start the argument. Here are the words of Ernst Moritz Arndt (1813) to the music of Gustav Reichart (1825) - a song expressing explosive nationalist sentiments, and banned in most German states until 1870.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHHxc5x6PjY

[ManfredV]

At that time national consciousness and also nationalism/chauvinism came up all over Europe. HRE and absolutism were gone, french revolution brought new ideas, Germans rised up against Napoleon, but they didn't get an united Germany but German Confederation. This german national consciousness was often connected with a yearning for democracy and an united fatherland. Arndt and "Turnvater" Jahn were those chauvinistic "right wingers", but f.e. August Hoffmann von Fallersleben was on e of those who yearned for democracy. His "Deutschland,Deutschland über alles" was not nationalistic,it was his dream of an united free Germany.
Later in Kaiserreich chauvinism grew and at least Nazi ideas were a pervesion of national idea.
Each epoch had it's ideas and concepts and they must be seen in their historical context. You'll find many examples of natioanalism in nearly all european states of 19th and 20th century. Even the well-behaved Swiss nearly started wars against Baden or France, but fortunately reasonable people kept controll.
But it shows: it isn't easy to understand german history.

[CroGer]

The Nazis' didn't start the argument. Here are the words of Ernst Moritz Arndt (1813) to the music of Gustav Reichart (1825) - a song expressing explosive nationalist sentiments, and banned in most German states until 1870.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHHxc5x6PjY

Oh no, you opened up the box of Pandorra!

Now we have a problem with disagreements between "hobby"-historians, some of them might religiously follow the post WW2-narrative.

The House of Luxemburg was one of the most important of what is now colloquially called the "Holy Roman Empire", or, in Nazi-terms, the first empire. It was basically Germany + some non-german parts.
The Luxemburgians were kings between 1308-1437. The male line of the House of Luxemburg died out and was taken over by the House of Habsburg.

Luxemburg has been part of the Holy Roman Emopire until it's end. After that it was part of France, then part of the German Federation, until the GF endet following the austro-prussian war. Luxemburg was made a "neutral state", because the Habsburgs had promised France a dissection of prussia after their victory, and France controll over the rhineland. After Austria lost, France threw a hissy fit, and to prevent another war, Luxemburg was made a "neutral state" as a concession.

Important here is the balance of power. Balance of Power is seen as a entirely british thing, but that is wrong. Russians, French, Habsburgs and Hoohenzollern also played a part in that. The congress of vienna did not bother with eastern european national sentiments.
It was all about creating a new balanced europe.
The song linked above is from the german "liberation wars" against Napoleon's France. After 1815, the germans wanted a national state, similar to that of the french and english. But they didn't get one, instead they got a federation where prussia and austria would balance each other out.


France's role here is important to mention:

Especially since the advent of french "irredentism" the french were hell bent on swallowing everything west of the rhine into france, since they considered it their natural borders, and the fact that people there didn't speak french was considered one of those mistakes in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism

Just like the germans considered it a mistake of history that the czechs spoke czech and the upper silesians spoke polish in the early 20th century.

Between 1795 and 1813 today's dutch region was made a french puppet state and a bigger part of western Germany, including Luxembourg, were part of France. Through compulsory schooling the people in the "batavian republic" aka "Netherlands" were convinced that they were not german at all, and that France rocks.

An example of what effect the Napoelonic policies had: before 1816 the dutch reformed church called itself "nederduitse gereformeerde kerk", but renamed themselves in "nederlandse hervormde kerk".

Most national languages spoken today have been spread by compulsory schooling. In the late 18th century, a german from Kleve would have had less trouble understanding a dutchmen from Limburg, than a bavarian.

But that is a long and complicated topic and I already see hundreds of people with very large feet and sensitive toes. Excuse me if I stepped on one of your toes. I am interested in history. And no, I don't want to create a Großdeutschland or make Adolf Hitler look like Ghandi. Thank you.


How german ethnicity was defined in the 20th century was by language, and history. "Culture" is difficult since cultures mixed. So Sauerkraut wasn't a factor, since the poles also eat Sauerkraut, but call it Bigos.
But there were historical maps that were more important:

German history went back to the 5 pre-christian tribes: the franks (Rhein-Main-Land), the Saxons (Northwest), the bavarians (south-eastern & alpine) and svabian/allemannic (south-western), and thyringian (eastern). Often the distinguishment was also "Oberdeutsch" (Southern Germans) and Niederdeutsch (northern germans).

So a black namibian who spoke german fluently was not considered german, since none of these german tribes ever went to Namibia.

In that context, Luxembugers are clearly frankish. You can also call it "Rhein-Model-Länder"

Of course today we live in the times of either no nationalism or civic nationalism, the old school of thought has been lost in western europe, and eveything which sounds like "you make ze Nazis sound like they haven't made everything up from science fiction-novels" is almost a death sentence. Or "he wants the Anschluß". No. I would advise the germans to do the opposite. Dissolve Germany into small states. Germany is too big and as long as it exists it will always be under international influence. Look at austria as a example of a smaller german state. It is much more free than the Federal Republic of Germany. But who am I? It is not up to me to decide.

But that was why the Nazis considered the Luxemburgers.... ethnic germans.