Those sneaky, underhanded Germans

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Davey Boy
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Those sneaky, underhanded Germans

#1

Post by Davey Boy » 14 Mar 2002, 12:49

I found this post on the http://www.feldgrau.net forum. A good read indeed:

The polish territories occupied by the Wehrmacht in september 1939 were partly annected to the Reich (Eingegliederte Ostgebiete), the remaining part became the General-Gouvernement. The purpose of the Nazis was to fully germanise the incorporated eastern territories by execution or deportation (to the GG) of all non-german elements. The plan was started in the early days of september 1939. The Gauleiter and the SS were leading this operation.

Now it is important to know that 80 % of the annected territories considered themselves as being non-german (7.8 million on a total of 9.7 milion). These are figures of the nazi administration (in december 1939 the Nazis had the entire population registered). In Danzig Westpreussen f.i. only 16,3 % declared the mother tongue to be german (71 % polish an 12 % kassubish).

Soon it appeared to be almost impossible to germanise those territories by execution, deportation and immigration of Batic Volksdeutsche. Different reasons can be listed:
- given the scale of the operation, it becomes clear that the germanisation could not be finished in weeks are even months.
- as in spring 1941 the operation Barbarossa is getting prepared, all means of transport are reserved for military purposes. The deportation of non-german population to the GG is a problem.
- as the occupied territories are getting "emty", the economy stucks. The Wehrwirtschafts- und Ruestungsamt des OKW, the Arbeitsministerium and the Amt fuer den Vierjahresplan are asking to keep cheap labour in the territories. At the same time the quality of the immigrating Volksdeutsche(from the Baltic area, etc) is often considered as poor. Forster, f.i. (Westpreusen), refuses incoming transports of these Volksdeutsche.

How did the Gauleiter face this problems without loosing their face? Forster (Danzig Westpreussen) and Wagner (Schlesien) choose the easiest way: when you cannot germanise the territories by deportating of exterminating the Poles, well, let's make Germans out of them!!!!

It may sound silly but this is what happened. You cannot understand this properly without the notion of "Deutsche Volksliste", which was a typical nazi-invention and introduced in the eastern teritories in march 1941. Simplyfying the whole, the purpose of this DVL was to make a distinction between very good germans, good germans, less good germans and bad germans (but germans anyway). Anyway, the germans had to be registered into 4 categories:
1. active Germans (who always claimed in public to be German. They could be member of the NSDAP).
2. passive Germans (who did not use to show sympathy for Germany in the past. Therefor, they cannot become member of the party).
3. Germans who suffered from Polish influences in the past, but who have sufficient cultural German background to re-become good Germans. (wiedereindeutschungsfaehigen).
4. persons of German origin who become completely Polish but who are sorry now (Renegaten).

Persons of categorie 1 and 2 became German citizens. Persons of groupe 3 got a temporary German citizenship (Deutsche auf Widerruf), had less rights but of course all the duties: one of them was mititary service!!!!

You can imagine that this system could be interpretated in more than one way. Gauleiter Greiser (Wartheland) continued to check the person's past before registering them on the DVL. Wagner (Schlesien) and Forster (Danzig Westpreussen) registered first, that would check after the war if the registration was justified. They used the DVL as a artificial way to show Hitler that their Gau was fully germanised. This competition among the Gauleiter and the revenge on the SS (Forster was histerical that Himmler was in charge of the "Festigung des deutschen Volkstums") made that Forster and Wagner started to registrer massively Poles on the DVL, mainly in group 3. (see Norman Davies, page 446).

Forster even started a compaign (Aufruf of February, 22nd, 1942) against Poles who had not decided yet to register themselves on the DVL. Every person who refused to register before March, 31, 1942 would be persecuted. Sometimes he ordered to register a whole village at once (a village that before the war was considered at 80% as being Polish).

Whatever may be the reason, fact is that a overwelming part of the pre-war Poles living in the eastern incorporated territories are registered in groupe 3 of the DVL. I should check for detailed figures (but in Torun f.i., a town in Westpreussen, 91.8 % of the population is registered in groupe 3 of the DVL!!!).

Kriegsraeson geht for Kriegmanier. In spite of the convention of Geneva and den Haag, the Wehrmacht forced foreigners to military service in the Wehrmacht. But in Poland at least, the DVL created a formal legimitation. The number of Poles serving in the Werhmacht is estimated at 200000 (some speak of 250000). Literature is giving a list of cases of rebellion (singing polish songs while leaving the station, refusing to be registered on the DVL, refusing to swear, etc.) and punishments (prison, concentration camp, etc).

On the western front, some 89300 persons of Polish origin are captured by the Allies. 50000 of them joined the British forces.

On the eastern front they were considered as traitors and transferred to the Tambov camp where a lot of them died. :(

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Zapfenstreich
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Germanizing the Poles.

#2

Post by Zapfenstreich » 14 Mar 2002, 18:53

General Anders

Himmler even started a program where selection units would go through Poland and pick out young children who fit the Nazi physical standards for the "Aryan" race. These children were kidnapped and placed in German homes where, it was hoped, they would grow up to be "good Germans". Himmler, himself, saw one Jewish child who had the appearance of a perfect Aryan. He tried to find something in the child's ancestry to justify placing him in a German home. Unfortunately, the child's ancestry was completely Jewish and Himmler reluctantly let him be taken to the camps.

Policy is policy, I guess.

Z


Davey Boy
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#3

Post by Davey Boy » 15 Mar 2002, 05:51

Zepfenstreich

Yes, I'm aware of the Nazi efforts to Germanize Polish children. They mostly took orphans, but some kids were indeed taken from their parents, especially in the Zamosc area. Estimates vary on how many children were taken from Poland, but about 25,000 were returned. I know a couple of families who were affected by this.

Some members on the Third Reich board, however, have claimed that such stories were mostly allied propaganda. Apparently, even German politicians have recently claimed that the stories of Nazis kidnapping Polish children were exagerrated. I'd like to hear someone here show me a bit of proof to back up such a position. I've requested that in the past, but no one answered.

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#4

Post by Davey Boy » 16 Mar 2002, 09:42

So, I see no one has produced any evidence to debunk the claims that Nazis kidnapped "Aryan" children from Poland. :roll:

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#5

Post by Thorfinn » 16 Mar 2002, 11:08

First of all, your statistics are crap. I do not want to waste my time by correcting all of your many errors. You said that in "Danzig Westpreussen f.i. only 16,3 % declared the mother tongue to be german", and that is the biggest bunch of crap that I have ever read. Cite any source please.

The Third Reich is not unique in that they wanted "to fully germanise the incorporated eastern territories by execution or deportation (to the GG) of all non-german elements". This never happened, but what did happen, was that Germans were removed from the East German Lands by the Poles/Russians/Soviets/Allies. I do not see you crying about that.

Finally, are you completely insane? I always thought that the accuser had to present evidence that a crime did happen. It is crazy to request evidence that proves an innocence of an accused, without showing evidence to the contrary. I see that we Germans are still guilty untill proven innocent. It would make more sense to demonstrate evidence that it did happen, but I guess that you are lacking in sense to begin with.

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#6

Post by Davey Boy » 16 Mar 2002, 11:17

Thorfinn,

Those figures are not mine, they were posted on the Feldgrau forum. Whoever wrote the post said the figures were compiled by the Nazis themsleves. I once saw similar, if not identical, figures in a book by Norman Davies.

Secondly, I have provided proof on the predecessor to this forum that Germans attempted to Germanize Polish children whose parents were killed or deported to concentration camps. I guess you must have missed that. No one has yet provided anything to counter that.

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#7

Post by Thorfinn » 16 Mar 2002, 11:48

I do not think that anybody will try to disprove that. The scale of organised operations is what is wrong with these type of accusations. Of course some "Germans attempted to Germanize Polish children whose parents were killed or deported". Who are you calling Polish though? Would a Danziger be considered Polish in these type of accusations? Would all Germans to the East of the Rivers be considered Polish? These people would want their children to be raised German.

I think that this is mostly myth, with a strong factual basis. An isolated, and seldom thing is now said to have been massive. Again, let me state that the same thing happened to Germans stuck in the East after the War. Until recently, there were no rights for Germans to live as Germans in Poland, CzechoSlovakia, ect., yet onesided individuals fail to mention these facts. It is natural for a nation to want homogeneity, so I feel that these events are human nature, and I do not fault the accused.

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#8

Post by Davey Boy » 16 Mar 2002, 16:15

Thorfinn, what the hell are you on about? Polish as in POLISH, like me. There are many well documented cases of this. I know someone who was a victim. Books have been written by some of these people. Do some basic reading, then we'll talk.

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Zapfenstreich
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WER IST WER IN DEUTSCHLAND

#9

Post by Zapfenstreich » 16 Mar 2002, 17:24

"I see that we Germans are still guilty untill proven innocent."

I believe if you review my posts on this forum, you will find that I have always differentiated between the Nazis and the German People as a whole.

I have always been completely enamored of the German people and the German culture and have always considered Die Hitlerzeit to be a complete aberration from what "wirklich Deutsch ist".

Respectfully
Z

P.S. Ich habe eine deutsche Nachname.
Last edited by Zapfenstreich on 16 Mar 2002, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

Martin Månsson
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!!

#10

Post by Martin Månsson » 16 Mar 2002, 19:16

Please calm down and watch your language!!

Martin
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Lady From Hell
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Re: !!Calm Down

#11

Post by Lady From Hell » 16 Mar 2002, 19:46

Martin Mansson wrote:Please calm down and watch your language!!

Martin
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:arrow: :D


I agree lets not lose our cool when discussing touchy subjects. To disagre is no shame as it is one of our Freedoms . So just your opinion is what you should stand on .Losing ones temper will never solve anything so we dis agree to agree. :P

L.F.H. :wink:

Davey Boy
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#12

Post by Davey Boy » 17 Mar 2002, 09:00

P.S. Thorfinn

If you want to talk about ethnic German rights in communist Poland then start your own thread.

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