Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

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history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 04 Nov 2018 16:47

Volyn, AFAIK, no "Afrika" cufftitle. At least all photos in uniform after his Afrika-engagement show the uniform without it. Nor any other evidence about it.
The Infantry Assault Badge was also for Gebirgsjäger. Wikipedia states "It could be awarded to members of non-motorized Infantry units and units of the GEBIRGSJÄGER that had participated in infantry assaults, with light infantry weapons,[...]" and this info is correct as I re-checked it with "Auszeichnungen des Dt. Reiches 1939-45". I don´t think that he was an infantrymen but when his power/help was needed I´m sure he had to fight in this function too. All soldiers get basic training, including sappers, signal men, medics, etc..
I doubt that such correction reg. medals/badges/orders is possible due to following reasons:
1. The country (Nazi Germany) for whom he fought as soldier doesn´t exist since May 1945. So whom do you ask for such correction?
2. I doubt that such personal "problems" can be dealed/cared for by family members. The military doesn´t play the role here which they do in the USA.
3. Such activity might be considered "Glorification of NS Germany" what is prohibited by law.

@wbfamily: From Volyn´s link we know that it were the British who made comming home difficulty for POW. They were under British custody. See also viewtopic.php?p=2166816#p2166816
Both is of course possible, that he had to surrender them to the British when becoming a POW or to hand out them to the Americans. But I´m sure he had proper papers for his release and in 1947 the US authorities didn´t have a reason to get them handed over. The war was long over, their anger towards the former enemy settled. Contrary to activities during WWII were mistreading, killings and other violations , eg. taking personal belongings and awards/medals, happened also on allied side (remember the Dachau liberation massacre, US soldiers did murder their German POW and allowing former inmates to torture and to kill them even while they were in US custody!).
IMHO it were the British who requested them. Remember that my entire family and relatives thought for more than 60 years that my grandfather fought the Americans in Africa while it were the British. Including himself! Common folk didn´t have any knowledge of English either, and many had very simple education [Eastern Austria, where I live, was until 1921 western Hungary and of course Hungarian used as official language, so all the people born before had to learn German at first, that´s visible in the letters].
Of course we do NOT know what is correct/really happened, but this variant is more likely, IMHO.

And I agree, as long as we don´t have any evidence as entry in his Wehrpass or from photos, resp. information from WAst. we can only guess what the marksmanship badge might have been.

Volyn, to be specific, the Waffenfarbe is "hochrot" not only red ;-) Translated "very red" or sometimes as "purple red". Valid for artillery units, artillery/Feuerwerker schools, generals, artillery NCO schools etc.
There´s also "karminrot" , also called "Karmesin" or "carmine red" which was used by OKW/OKH officers, war college/academy and veterinary units.
Samples:
karmesin: https://www.ralfarbpalette.de/ral-class ... -karminrot
hochrot: https://www.bauhaus.info/leinwaende-zei ... p/20259156
Hence I think that your sample for Oberfeldwebel and Artillery is correct.

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 04 Nov 2018 16:59

history1 wrote:
04 Nov 2018 16:47
Volyn, to be specific, the Waffenfarbe is "hochrot" not only red ;-) Translated "very red" or sometimes as "purple red". Valid for artillery units, artillery/Feuerwerker schools, generals, artillery NCO schools etc.
There´s also "karminrot" , also called "Karmesin" or "carmine red" which was used by OKW/OKH officers, war college/academy and veterinary units.
Samples:
karmesin: https://www.ralfarbpalette.de/ral-class ... -karminrot
hochrot: https://www.bauhaus.info/leinwaende-zei ... p/20259156
Hence I think that your sample for Oberfeldwebel and Artillery is correct.
Great information, I wonder how the regular German officer or soldier could identify correctly all of the variations for each color, badge, patch, etc. It seems this would cause logistical issues to create so many unique and detailed uniform apparel items.
history1 wrote:
04 Nov 2018 16:47
The Infantry Assault Badge was also for Gebirgsjäger. Wikipedia states "It could be awarded to members of non-motorized Infantry units and units of the GEBIRGSJÄGER that had participated in infantry assaults, with light infantry weapons,[...]" and this info is correct as I re-checked it with "Auszeichnungen des Dt. Reiches 1939-45". I don´t think that he was an infantrymen but when his power/help was needed I´m sure he had to fight in this function too. All soldiers get basic training, including sappers, signal men, medics, etc..
I did not know that a non-infantryman could earn this badge; could he have been awarded both the Infantry Assault Badge and the General Assault Badge to wear on his uniform?

Also, I think I have identified the Spade Sleeve Badge for Leaders on Walter's RAD uniform. He seems to be from Division 42 or 47 can someone confirm if this is accurate?

This photo would have been taken in 1938
RAD Badge.jpg
It would look like this 3/45 badge except it would be a 42 or 47.
RAD Spade Sleeve Badge - Example.jpg
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Last edited by Volyn on 04 Nov 2018 17:41, edited 2 times in total.

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 04 Nov 2018 17:23

The General Assault Badge was created for soldiers not able to obtain the Infantry Assault Badge.
As Infantry and Gebirgsjäger units were qualified for the latter, no, there was no possibility to get both. At least not in my understanding.
Reg. RAD - unit see my response in your separate thread.


PS.: Typo corrected
Last edited by history1 on 05 Nov 2018 10:50, edited 1 time in total.

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 04 Nov 2018 17:37

RAD-Abt. 4/42 Bütow 01.10.1935, 1936, Amern (W 10) Ofm. Wangler (as of 08.07.1938) "Yorck" (FDW)

RAD Bezirk IV - Mark Brandenburg (Berlin)
RAD Gruppe 42 - Berlin:

4/42 Hohennauen-Nordend - we might be inaccurate, it seems that this was a RAD-Lager for women, can it be confirmed? To me it looks like 47 but what is the number below it?

RAD-Lager-Gruppe 47 Lübbenau
RADwJ-bearing 1/47 Gollmitz
RAD-Abt. K6 / 47 Lenzen
RAD-Abt. 8/47 Lenzen
RADwJ-Lager 10/47 Schlepzig
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=238330&p=2167356#p2167356
RAD Sleeve Badge.jpg
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Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 05 Nov 2018 01:17

history1 wrote:
04 Nov 2018 17:23
The General Assault badge was created for soldiers not able to obtain the Infantry Assault badge.
As Infantry and Gebirgsjäger units were qualified for the latter, no, there was no possibility to get both. At least not in my understanding.
I noticed something about this photo -

In this image he is a Gefrieter, and he has the Edelweiss badge on his upper right sleeve, but he does not have the Feuerwerker badge on the lower right sleeve.

However, we have a photo of him in Greece in May 1941 and he has the Feuerwerker badge on his lower right sleeve. What can explain this discrepancy?

How could he have attended the school in-between all of his campaigns in Poland, France and Greece unless he was allowed to leave and then return?

If this was the case did he switch professions from infantry to pyrotechnic?
Gefrieter Beynun.jpg
Saloniki, Greece 12.05.1941.jpg
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history1
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Re:Unidentified RAD badge

Post by history1 » 05 Nov 2018 10:52

Volyn wrote:
04 Nov 2018 17:37
RAD-Abt. 4/42 Bütow 01.10.1935, 1936, Amern (W 10) Ofm. Wangler (as of 08.07.1938) "Yorck" (FDW)[...]
It doesn´t make sense to discuss this matter in more than one thread. Let´s stick to the thread you opened for this specific question.

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 05 Nov 2018 21:37

4/42 Hohennauen-Nordend has to be the correct RAD group.
RAD Sleeve Badge.jpg
We can see that it is most likely Walter Beynun's sleeve badge says 42 over 4. Notice the difference in the German 2 and 7 on these other RAD badges.
4.jpg
dsc_0217-_2_.jpg
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Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 06 Nov 2018 03:26

Here are two documents that wbfamily needed help to upload -

They show Walter Beynun's service dates with RAD are from April 1938 - October 1938 (6 months) and he served in the Heer October 1938 - 8 MAY 1945 (6.5 years). His final rank was Oberfeldwebel, which is the equivalent of a Staff Sergeant E-6 in the US Army.

RAD and First Wehrmacht Service Dates.jpg
Continued Wehrmacht Service Dates and Final Rank.jpg
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Last edited by Volyn on 06 Nov 2018 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

wbfamily
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by wbfamily » 06 Nov 2018 16:40

Volyn wrote:
05 Nov 2018 21:37
4/42 Hohennauen-Nordend has to be the correct RAD group. RAD Sleeve Badge.jpg We can see that it is most likely Walter Beynun's sleeve badge says 42 over 4. Notice the difference in the German 2 and 7 on these other RAD badges. 4.jpgdsc_0217-_2_.jpg
Great observation! :thumbsup:

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 08 Nov 2018 15:04

Volyn wrote:
05 Nov 2018 21:37
4/42 Hohennauen-Nordend has to be the correct RAD group.
After further research the numbering of the RAD-Gruppe 42 can only mean a group located in the Bütow area (modern Bytów, Poland). Therefore, 4/42 Bütow would be the correct unit, not Hohennauen-Nordend.

I found there were two main camps for the battalions in the Bütow RAD-Gruppe, one in the village of Trzebiatkowa and one more in the village of Kawcze (which used to be the German village of Kaffzig). I have a map of the location for Kaffzig, but it will not upload due to the file size.

I also learned that male RAD camps usually held around 180-220 people.

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 08 Nov 2018 15:24

A simple question: Why should a young man from Berlin join a RAD unit which is 400 km = 250 ml away from his home?

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 08 Nov 2018 16:17

history1 wrote:
08 Nov 2018 15:24
A simple question: Why should a young man from Berlin join a RAD unit which is 400 km = 250 ml away from his home?
That is a question I cannot answer, but according to his badge this would be the correct Gruppe.

How were people assigned to a RAD-Gruppe? Was it strictly based on local units or could they be assigned far away?

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 10 Nov 2018 20:47

I found two more badges that he qualified for -

#11 Nahkampfspange in Bronze (Close Combat Clasp in Bronze):
Close Combat Clasp in Bronze - Example.jpg
Bronze class for 15 combat days
Silver class for 30 combat days
Gold class for 50 combat days

https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_ba ... at_bar.htm
The initial combat days were established taking in count the uninterrupted time of engagement on the Eastern front since June 22 of 1941:

15 months = 15 combat days

12 months = 10 combat days

8 months = 5 combat days
We know he was in Russia at least until August of 1942, and he was part of the initial invasion of the USSR in June 1941 - Southern Ukraine with 1. Geb-Div. This combat time would continue to count during his involvement in the Caucasus and Kuban Bridgehead until March 1943 when his Division left the USSR; a total of 21 or 22 months depending on when the first month is counted. Therefore, he would have easily qualified for the CCC-Bronze grade award based on the time qualifications alone.

We also need to take into account how many combat months would be added during his anti-partisan activities when his Division re-deployed to the Balkans and Greece.

We know that he spent some amount of time at the MUNA plant, but we do not know the dates that he was there. Could this have been something temporary or was it permanent?

Previously wbfamily stated that he surrendered in May 1945, which would have been at Ostmark, Austria if he was still fighting with 1. Geb.
Understanding his Division's combat/anti-partisan record from June 1941 - May 1945 it is theoretically possible that he could have accumulated 15-20 individual battles without too much difficulty. At least we can say for sure that he technically qualified for the CCC-Bronze, with a very real possibility that he could have qualified for the CCC-Silver.
Close Combat Clasp in Silver - Example.jpg


Also, to add another twist - he actually qualified for at least the Allgemeines Sturmabzeichen "25"
General Assualt Badge 25 - Perfect Example.jpg
https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_ba ... ssault.htm
Award Criteria
The numbered awards had the same criteria as the single badge, and was presented in progressive order as the veterans gained more experience. There was retrospective credit given for service in Russia accumulated as follows,

Eight months service equaled 10 actions.

Twelve months service equaled 15 actions.

Fifteen months service equaled 25 actions.
List of "Qualified" Awards, Badges and Patches:

1. War Merit Cross 2nd Class with Swords - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Merit_Cross
2. Eastern Front Medal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_Medal
3. Wehrmacht Long Service Medal 4th Class with Hoheitszeichen - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht ... vice_Award
4. Crusade Against Communism Medal with "Azov" bronze clasp and "Donet" and "Caucaz" silver clasps - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_A ... nism_Medal
5. Feuerwerker Patch - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feuerwerker
6. Edelweiss Patch -
7. Allgemeines Sturmabzeichen "25" (General Assault Badge "25") - https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_ba ... ssault.htm
8. Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz (Wound Badge in Black) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_Badge
9. Ärmelschild Kuban (Kuban Shield) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Shield
10. Bandenkampfabzeichen (Bandit-warfare Badge) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandit-warfare_Badge
11. Nahkampfspange in Bronze (Close Combat Clasp in Bronze) - https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_ba ... at_bar.htm
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Last edited by Volyn on 11 Nov 2018 15:18, edited 5 times in total.

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 10 Nov 2018 22:06

The "Feuerwerker"-badge is NOT an award, the "Edelweiß"-badge of the Gebirgsjäger (mountain infantry) neither. And instead the Infantry Assault Badge you suggested the General Assault Badge even after my explanation in #138.
And I don´t understand why you call this list "Total List of Awards Identified". Where did you identify all this awards and badges on his uniform? Or do you mean "suggest awards"? Then you might add also EK I and EK II, etc...

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 11 Nov 2018 00:18

history1 wrote:
10 Nov 2018 22:06
The "Feuerwerker"-badge is NOT an award, the "Edelweiß"-badge of the Gebirgsjäger (mountain infantry) neither.
You are correct, I changed the title to 'List of "Qualified" Awards, Badges and Patches', hopefully this will clarify what the list is for.
history1 wrote:
10 Nov 2018 22:06
And instead the Infantry Assault Badge you suggested the General Assault Badge even after my explanation in #138.
This is a mystery because he does not wear the IAB in any photos, and I do not believe he was awarded the IAB based on the criteria for that award. If you go back to my post #140 maybe there is a clue that can help to explain this?

The GAB was created to award soldiers like him who would not have received the IAB even though he was fighting in Gebirgsjäger units.

GAB Award Criteria:
The General Assault badge was presented to engineers (who it was originally designed for), as well as members of the artillery, anti-tank, and anti-aircraft units that served along with the infantry in the conduct of an assault.
https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_ba ... ssault.htm

We know he was a Feuerwerker which was part of the artillery branch, therefore, unless we know for certain that everyone assigned to the Gebirgsjäger unit is awarded the IAB (including all non-infantry personnel) - the only other badge he would have truly qualified for is the GAB. As I have shown in the previous post, the CCC and GAB only needed to meet the necessary time criteria in order to "qualify" for both of the those awards.
history1 wrote:
10 Nov 2018 22:06
And I don´t understand why you call this list "Total List of Awards Identified". Where did you identify all this awards and badges on his uniform? Or do you mean "suggest awards"? Then you might add also EK I and EK II, etc...
We are attempting to identify every award, badge and patch that he technically "qualifies" for - or that we already know he was awarded. As for the EK I and EK II, etc. those awards were related to personal acts of bravery; currently we have no evidence of his battlefield activities to compare and identify which bravery awards he could have qualified for. Unless further evidence comes to light, we are limited to review only what he could have received based on the regulations for each award, badge, patch, etc.
Last edited by Volyn on 11 Nov 2018 15:29, edited 1 time in total.

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