Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

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history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 11 Nov 2018 09:51

After reading the ciiterias in the book "Auszeichnungen des Deutschen Reiches, p.110, by Kurt -G. Klietmann", I need to agree with you, it´s the GAB which he might have qualified for.

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 21 Nov 2018 17:43

I found one more patch and what must be a temporary battlefield award called the "Grüner Bruch" that Walter would have been eligible to wear due to his participation in the Battle of Uman (1941).

I discovered the existence of the "Grüner Bruch" only from the XXXXIX. Geb-Corps commander General der Gebirgstruppe Ludwig Kübler, after the Battle of Uman. All 4 divisions of the XXXXIX Geb-Corps received permission to wear it - "In recognition of the merits on the battlefield, I allow the Corps of my body to wear the Grüner Bruch."

What I have learned is that Grüner Bruch are pieces of green twigs or leaves placed on hats after a successful hunt.

Can someone confirm if this information is correct and help provide a decent photo for #1?

1. "Grüner Bruch" - worn on the Gebirgsjäger Bergmütze to the left of the Mützenabzeichen an Bergmützen (Edelweiss patch).

2. Ärmelabzeichen Jäger - worn on the right sleeve. After the Battle of Podwysokokoje (near Uman) all 4 divisions of the XXXXIX. Geb-Corps received permission to wear this patch. However, I am not sure which patch (Ärmeledelweiss or Ärmelabzeichen Jäger) took precedence for the soldier who was authorized to wear both; I believe you could only wear one of the badges at a time?
Ärmelabzeichen der Jägertruppen - Right Sleeve.jpg
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wbfamily
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by wbfamily » 18 Jan 2019 23:34

In case anyone is still following, I thought I would share the original medals i've acquired so far for my grandfather. Thanks to Volyn, for pointing me in all of the right directions! You can certainly tell which of the 2 were purchased without assistance, haha! I will be replacing the GAB and Wound Medal with better, more accurate medals.
Screenshot_20190118-152646_Gallery.jpg
20190118_153307.jpg
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history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 19 Jan 2019 20:57

Doesn´t make any sense to me, but it´s your grandfather and your orders. Would understand it when he would have become awarded them and they got lost, but so?

wbfamily
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by wbfamily » 20 Jan 2019 06:27

history1 wrote:
19 Jan 2019 20:57
Doesn´t make any sense to me, but it´s your grandfather and your orders. Would understand it when he would have become awarded them and they got lost, but so?
He was taken prisoner at the end of the war and had to surrender his medals either at that time, or when he emigrated to Canada or the United States. We aren't sure what the exact circumstances were. Is this what you were asking?

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 20 Jan 2019 19:36

Not exactly. My point was that he did not have to get every award as suggested by Volyn even while he might be fullfilled the requested duty/action. Being there is one thing, getting the award certificate and the award is another.

wbfamily
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by wbfamily » 20 Jan 2019 20:44

history1 wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:36
Not exactly. My point was that he did not have to get every award as suggested by Volyn even while he might be fullfilled the requested duty/action. Being there is one thing, getting the award certificate and the award is another.
True. But given the information we do have and knowing that he was going to be given the iron cross but was passed up last minute, we know that he should have been awarded them. That is the best we can do. I want to commemorate his career the best way I can, and by accumulating all of these, we can tell his entire story to family generations to come, in a single display. Even if I am not around to tell it. Hopefully, we will come across more info later, but until then..

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 21 Jan 2019 11:48

Do as you like/wish. But add for the future generations that this are the awards he might have been awarded (except the ones we can see in the photos where one can be sure about that he got them awarded).

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 22 Jan 2019 14:48

history1 wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:36
My point was that he did not have to get every award as suggested by Volyn even while he might be fullfilled the requested duty/action. Being there is one thing, getting the award certificate and the award is another.
history1 wrote:
21 Jan 2019 11:48
Do as you like/wish. But add for the future generations that this are the awards he might have been awarded (except the ones we can see in the photos where one can be sure about that he got them awarded).
history1 - As you correctly point out, this is what Walter would have only "qualified" for during his career with 1. Geb-Div.

Circumstances such as these require careful insight into what the regulations and criteria were, in order to earn each award. Some medals he obviously earned like the Dienstauszeichnung der Wehrmacht 4 Jahre, because he served for 6.5 years.https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dienstaus ... Wehrmacht)

However, none of the awards presented in this thread were based on his individual battle activities, because we had none to review.

In any nation's military, most of the awards are given after the conflict has actually ended and the individual soldier can focus on getting their records correctly updated (if he is still alive). There are many verifiable stories about German POWs and emigres, who were forced to surrender all of their awards, and since there is no possible way to officially re-dress these issues, this is the best that can be done.

One award not listed so far in this thread that he easily qualified for was the Deutsches Schutzwall-Ehrenzeichen (West Wall Medal) - see the criteria for awarding here http://antique-photos.com/en/awardsdata ... medal.html
The Westwall Medal was also awarded to military personnel who were stationed on these fortifications prior to May 1940 for at least three weeks.
1. Geb-Div was moved into position in early 1940, around January or February if I am not mistaken. Basically the West Wall Medal became the unofficial "French Campaign Medal".
4. West Wall Medal.jpg
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Last edited by Volyn on 22 Jan 2019 18:48, edited 1 time in total.

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 22 Jan 2019 18:47

Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 14:48
[...]
In any nation's military, most of the awards are given after the conflict has actually ended and the individual soldier can focus on getting their records correctly updated (if he is still alive). There are many verifiable stories about German POWs and emigres, who were forced to surrender all of their awards, and since there is no possible way to officially re-dress these issues, this is the best that can be done.
[...]
Volyn, no one gives/gave a damn about awards after WWII. During WWII they were important because they did promote ones reputation but afterwards they weren´t worth a penny. Right the contrary, the more awards the more Nazi and the more troubles (including occupational ban! That´s what the Nazis to the Jews did to make their life hard before the Endlösung. Good luck feeding your family with such ban! ) People had more serious problems than running after a piece of metal!
[This is not the USA where people celebrate former soldiers as heroes for no reason. No one cares if John Doe fought in Korea, Vietnam or was involved by invading the Iraq or Afghanistan,etc. and if he has two awards, ten of them or none.]
And I´ve never seen an award certificate issued after WWII! Who would have awarded the requested award from a not - existing country? The Americans? "Please, Sir, here you go. Congratulation to your award from a country which doesn´t exist yet. But please don´t forget to scratch out the swastika on it, otherwise we must consider it as glorification of the Nazi system and imprison you!". What a joke!
The best one can do is to stick to the truth and not ending up in a phantasy. A award not granted is not his, and when you state hundred times "but he was qualified for".
I don´t have nothing against the one we can verify in the photos, but the rest? Call it bad luck and blame those who did violate the Geneve conventions and rob him from his awards and private possession. I don´t have nothing against those we can verify in the photos, but the rest? Or separate them in those verified and those he could/should have handed over.

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 22 Jan 2019 19:56

history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:47
Volyn, no one gives/gave a damn about awards after WWII. During WWII they were important because they did promote ones reputation but afterwards they weren´t worth a penny. People had more serious problems than running after a piece of metal!
history1 why the emotional hostility? Who is no one? These awards are worth more than money, they are a legacy of someone's actions during their military career. If a family wants to remember their ancestor's past, who are you to say otherwise?

You are also very wrong about how people felt about awards, medals, etc. - many people cared about them back then, and they still care about them now; this is true in many nations, even in Germany.

Perhaps it would be more accurate for you to say that you do not care about the medals?
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:47
And I´ve never seen an award certificate issued after WWII! Who would have awarded the requested award from a not - existing country? The Americans?
I have read German documents awarding Kriegsmarine medals to U-Boat crews in late-May 1945 after the war was over. This is besides the point, we openly acknowledge that there was no official way to ensure a German soldier could make their award records accurate.

How did the West German government award '57 medals/badges to their soldiers, did they have to show the award documents for each item or was there another process? This is the closest example I can think of where former NS German soldiers were able to confirm and update their awards.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:47
The best one can do is to stick to the truth and not ending up in a phantasy. A award not granted is not his, and when you state hundred times "but he was qualified for".

What is fantasy here? In order to earn any award you first have to qualify for it, all we have done is establish that the qualifications were met for each item. We do not say that he earned badges, shields, medals, that were not relevant to his situation.

We can see from the posted photos that he is present for each fight (Poland, France, Greece, USSR) and we have no evidence that he was removed from his division. We do not say that he should be awarded the Iron Cross, only the badges and medals that he actually qualified for.

Is your version of "truth" only what is written on an award document or in a Soldbuch? See the photos for yourself, you cannot argue that he was not present in these locations, and we know his job is a Feuerwerker so he would have to be at the front quite often. His photos show that this is true; he did not sit behind a desk in Berlin or HQ.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:47
I don´t have nothing against those we can verify in the photos, but the rest? Or separate them in those verified and those he could/should have handed over.
How did you become the referee to decide which medals his family can replace or not?

Call it an absence of photos, nothing more. Simply because you did not see his awards while he was still in possession of them does not mean he did not receive them. We did not fabricate anything, we simply proceed with the evidence in-hand, if you have other official evidence from the regulations that show something cannot be given, then please share it with all of us.

It is bad luck that they were lost and it was a violation of the Geneva Convention that they were taken. However, there is nothing wrong with re-grouping a soldier's lost awards, he deserves them if he earned them - that is all.

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 22 Jan 2019 21:32

Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
[...] history1 why the emotional hostility? Who is no one? These awards are worth more than money, they are a legacy of someone's actions during their military career.
There´s no hostility. No one is everyone in my country. This awards are replacements, bought maybe for good money. And for the most of them there is no proof that he got them awarded. Like it or not.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
If a family wants to remember their ancestor's past, who are you to say otherwise?
There´s nothing against remembrance and neither I say they should not remember him. But who are you to suggest that he MUST become all them awarded? Even when he qualified it means nothing, provide a document or a photo which PROOFS that he got it awarded and I will agree with you.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
You are also very wrong about how people felt about awards, medals, etc. - many people cared about them back then, and they still care about them now; this is true in many nations, even in Germany.
They still care about them now? I see it, when they sell them for a couple Euros to souvenir shops. Or hwhen thrown away after the bearer died. Alone in my family ~40 different (various models and different persons) were thrown into the plunder! That´s how much people after WWII cared for them.
BTW, with how many former Wehrmacht soldiers or SS men has you spoken about their experiences and how they felt after war? I spoke with a handicapped soldier who survived Stalingrad and POW camps and he didn´t regret that he got stripped of his awards by the Soviets but that he lost his left arm.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
[...]
In other nations it can take years to clear the backlogs of awards that need to be issued (especially in the US and USSR), and I have yet to read a single soldier's records that was not missing something they had earned.

I know that they need to provide evidence for their claims. And your US soldiers also live in a country which still exists.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
[...]
What is fantasy here? In order to earn any award you first have to qualify for it, all we have done is establish that the qualifications were met for each item.

Whom you want to impress which your award which he got not awarded? The school boys on the street? Go, bring the proper award certificates from the authorities for this man´s awards for which he qualified but which he didn´t receive.
That´s like missing free beer in your bar and later complaining: "Hey, I´m one of your regular guests, I must get one now!" And no, YOU suggest that they should buy those awards which he didn´t receive because he did qualify for.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
We can see from the posted photos that he is present for each fight (Poland, France, Greece, USSR) and we have no evidence that he was removed from his division. We do not say that he should be awarded the Iron Cross, only the badges and medals that he actually qualified for.
Guess how many thousands did not get what they qualified for? You don´t seriously think they had a way to enforce the awarding of any medal/award by their authorities even when they qualified.
My grandfather is rolling in his grave sure, he was wounded 3 times and served for a couple years and though got only the black wound medal. I wonder why he didn´t simply buy the silver one or request such one from the authorities after WWII, at least he had proof in his paybook that he was injured.
Ooops, I forgot that there was no one where he could enforce his claim. The country which issued them was/is gone.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
Is your version of "truth" only what is written on an award document or in a Soldbuch? See the photos for yourself, you cannot argue that he was not present in these locations, and we know his job is a Feuerwerker so he would have to be at the front quite often. His photos show that this is true;[...]
Correct, no entry in the pay book nor certficate nor photo with the award = no entitlement for the award. And no, this is not only my view.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:47
I don´t have nothing against those we can verify in the photos, but the rest? Or separate them in those verified and those he could/should have handed over.
Call it an absence of photos, nothing more. Simply because you did not see his awards while he was still in possession of them does not mean he did not receive them.
ROFL
You didn´t see them either nor do you or anyone have proof that he received them. But you suggest thaat he did possess them!? How do you know? Do you suggest that he did polish them and hide them in a shoe box instead to wear?

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 22 Jan 2019 21:46

Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
We did not fabricate anything, we simply proceed with the evidence in-hand,
The evidence is only that he was on those locations, not that he got them awarded.
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
How did you become the referee to decide which medals his family can replace or not?
How did you become the referee to claim which medals this man got/became awarded while you have absolutely no proof for them? I need to repeat myself:" being there is one thing, getting an award another one".
Volyn wrote:
22 Jan 2019 19:56
It is bad luck that they were lost and it was a violation of the Geneva Convention that they were taken. However, there is nothing wrong with re-grouping a soldier's lost awards, he deserves them if he earned them - that is all.,
He didn´t earn what he didn´t became awarded (except those one the photos). And neither he can loose what was not his possession. Or can you loose money which you could have earned but which you did not earn? That´s all.

history1
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by history1 » 22 Jan 2019 22:27

Maybe this discussion is only because our countries and cultures are too different? We don´t have blue ISIS here which kills unarmed citizens or wound them and let them bleed to death, staying around their victim and looking on one´s agony instead to render first aid. Neither do we have cops endangering innocent citizens with nonsense pursuits instead to visit the car holder a few hours later. We neither have people who are walking upon strangers and violating their rights and call the cops on them (happened to me in the USA twice during a 3week stay!). Nor do we have rodeos and pig wrestlings of live pigeon shoots enabled by bribed politicans and protected by bribed cops violating the US constitution.
And the only role our military plays is as help in emergencies like actually cut off villages due to snow storms and avalanges. Our military is neutral and we don´t invade other countries in Nazi style as the US does permanently since end of WWII.
Good riddance!

Volyn
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Re: Help with grandfather's photos. Any info, please!

Post by Volyn » 22 Jan 2019 22:35

history1 - we are speaking past each other, I never claimed that he was officially awarded them, only that he meets the awarding criteria.

I think it should be said this way -

If a soldier wants to be acknowledged as an official awardee for any medal or badge then he will need to have the documents to prove it.

However, this is an unofficial situation, it is only a private family who wants to remember what he did, and these are the items that he meets the criteria for. So, if the family wants to re-group the awards and tell their posterity that this is what is possible, then so be it. How common was it for a German soldier to meet the award criteria and not receive the award?
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:32
There´s no hostility. No one is everyone in my country. This awards are replacements, bought maybe for good money. And for the most of them there is no proof that he got them awarded. Like it or not.
Glad there is no hostility and we have already acknowledged several times there is no proof for these items, just regulations.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:32
There´s nothing against remembrance and neither I say they should not remember him. But who are you to suggest that he MUST become all them awarded? Even when he qualified it means nothing, provide a document or a photo which PROOFS that he got it awarded and I will agree with you.
You and I both want to be precise, I just look at this situation for what it is - a man lost his awards and his family wants to know what they could have been. We do not want to make claims that are not true, only what is possible; this should not be controversial.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:32
They still care about them now? I see it, when they sell them for a couple Euros to souvenir shops. Or when thrown away after the bearer died. Alone in my family ~40 different (various models and different persons) were thrown into the plunder! That´s how much people after WWII cared for them.
BTW, with how many former Wehrmacht soldiers or SS men has you spoken about their experiences and how they felt after war? I spoke with a handicapped soldier who survived Stalingrad and POW camps and he didn´t regret that he got stripped of his awards by the Soviets but that he lost his left arm.
You are also correct that these awards were worth very little to the people in Post-NS Germany, that is fine, nobody says that they had to cherish them.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:32
Whom you want to impress which your award which he got not awarded? The school boys on the street? Go, bring the proper award certificates from the authorities for this man´s awards for which he qualified but which he didn't receive.
I am sure the family would do so if they had these documents, but there is nobody to impress.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:32
Guess how many thousands did not get what they qualified for? You don´t seriously think they had a way to enforce the awarding of any medal/award by their authorities even when they qualified.
My grandfather is rolling in his grave sure, he was wounded 3 times and served for a couple years and though got only the black wound medal. I wonder why he didn´t simply buy the silver one or request such one from the authorities after WWII, at least he had proof in his paybook that he was injured.
Ooops, I forgot that there was no one where he could enforce his claim. The country which issued them was/is gone.
This is exactly why I do this, your grandfather like most soldiers, was aggrieved. In his case for not receiving the Ärmelband Afrika or the Verwundetenabzeichen in Silber - but we can see that he earned them according to the regulations. He was also lucky to keep his paybook, many soldiers lost theirs, but this does not mean that their activities did not occur. I look at this situation more deeply, we have the ability to research and learn more about these dynamic situations.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 21:32
Correct, no entry in the pay book nor certficate nor photo with the award = no entitlement for the award. And no, this is not only my view.
I agree if this were for an official proclamation like getting a pension, etc. However, it has been said many times, this is an unofficial list of what he could have had.
history1 wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:47
ROFL
You didn´t see them either nor do you or anyone have proof that he received them. But you suggest thaat he did possess them!? How do you know? Do you suggest that he did polish them and hide them in a shoe box instead to wear?
I never suggested he had them and I do not suggest that he did not have them, I only say what his activities qualify him for, nothing else.

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