If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

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wm
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If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 12 Sep 2020 20:47

If the Social Democrats had been a little more nationalistic,
they could have made their party the strongest in the country.
Fritz Thyssen in I Paid Hitler
True or false?

That would mean their fanatical progressivism;
I hated the growing atheistic movement, which was fostered and promoted by the Social Democrats and the Communists.
Martin Niemöller
their disregard for the feelings and beliefs of ordinary Germans was the main reason the Nazis won so easily.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 12 Sep 2020 21:22

Ah false WM. Nazis were not religious either. XD Plus you had different coalitions between social democrats and German christian democrats which were ''a bit more nationalistic'' if you put it that way and they were also allies with liberal German's people party. But i see their mistake maybe in their attacks on chancellor Bruning when he tried to solve economic crisis with tools of liberal economy approach combined with christian charity in at that time quite christian nation. However indeed war reparations were in such situation a big burden.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 13 Sep 2020 02:47

Had the Social Democrats been more nationalistic, Communists would have been even more likely to denounce the Social Democrats as being predatory bourgeois imperialists or something along those lines! :(

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 13 Sep 2020 07:47

The Communists were Stalin's puppets, subservient to Soviet political aims. As their goal was an armed rebellion, it didn't matter if their enemies were nice or not to them. They were going to get it anyway.

The Nazis weren't anti-religious; this is why people like Thyssen and Niemöller supported them.
Among all the fanaticism, the Nazis seemed to be the sane guys. In the thirties Hitler worked hard to achieve such a reputation.
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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 13 Sep 2020 10:56

@Futurist that is true, however social democrats were called fascists by communist anyway. It is just a question if in the time of economic crisis people or workers would fall more easly in communist hands if there was no marxist alternative.

@WM communists also allowed sometimes when it looked convinient to them that capitalist were financing them, financing their own demise as they said. Nazis wanted to at least subjugate the christian church. Having that goal in his mind Hitler supported so called German christians and their leader Ludwig Muller. But on the other hand classical christians were persecuted. Already in 1937 hunders of clergy men were arrested.

During the war many christian churches and figures resisted to euthanasia program and at that time they were not persecuted so strongly because Hitler and Goebbles believed that would not be good during time of war and could have negative effects on public opinion. Yet Borman was calling for stronger measures, advocating National socialism and christianity can not be in peace. But Nazis had plans for the time after the war. Some more fervent Nazis like Fritz Bildt were even calling for closure of all churches after the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Ch ... (movement)

W. Shrirer, ''Vzpon in padec Tretjega Rajha'', book 1, pages 346-355, published in Ljubljana, 1969.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 13 Sep 2020 17:26

I advise interested people in this topic also to read this article written by professor Conway of the University of British Columbia. It demonstrates very well that Roosevelt was completely right when he in October 1944 presented to USA public that National socialism is aiming to destroy christian churches inside Germany at least. It is not just about Fritz Bildt's plan for so called National church of Reich, which was passed apparently to USA government from Germany. But after the resistance concerning euthanasia program from christian churches and leaders a decision was made at the top levels of Nazi party that christianity in Germany should be destroyed at least what it was considered classical christianity, both protestant and catholic.

Already in June 1941 Martin Borman issued a secret letter to the Gauleiters saying National socialism and christianity are incompatible. At the same time Heydrich ordered Gestapo to suppress many smaller christian groups like Salvation army. Church press was totaly suppressed for the time until the end of war, christian kindergartens were closed down and the control over priests and preachers got more strict.

Finally in September 1941 Gestapo had a conference and it was decided that destruction of christianity is their final goal. But the goal could be achieved only step by step.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25019927?s ... b_contents

Here one should take in to the account that the same fate was waiting christian churches also in the territories annexed to Reich, like Austria, parts of France, Poland, Slovenia etc.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 13 Sep 2020 18:32

In the thirties and especially during the war Hitler generally avoided conflicts with Christianity and defused all emerging conflicts (as in the case of euthanasia.)
He had his plans - to be implemented after the victory but the Germans weren't aware of them.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 13 Sep 2020 18:59

As can be seen below Hitler was a more reasonable politician than German Socialists and Communists with their mandatory atheism.
He understood that people can live on atheism alone. As long as Churches didn't meddle in politics he was ok with so-called "superstitions" of simple people.

And he was thoroughly modern in his liberal beliefs, he believed in coexistence with Churches, believed in science (and its final victory,) and believed in intimate communion with nature.
As so many people believe today.

Hitler on Christianity, 14 October 1941
Trying to take a long view of things, is it conceivable that one could found anything durable on falsehood?
...
I'm convinced that any pact with the Church can offer only a provisional benefit, for sooner or later the scientific spirit will disclose the harmful character of such a compromise. Thus the State will have based its existence on a foundation that one day will collapse.
...
If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can't satisfy them with the Party's program. Time will go by until the moment when science can answer all the questions. So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches.

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.

...
When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity. Originally, religion was merely a prop for human communities. It was a means, not an end in itself. It's only gradually that it became transformed in this direction, with the object of maintaining the rule of the priests, who can live only to the detriment of society collectively.
...
It's possible to satisfy the needs of the inner life by an intimate communion with nature, or by knowledge of the past.
Only a minority, however, at the present stage of the mind's development, can feel the respect inspired by the unknown, and thus satisfy the metaphysical needs of the soul. The average human being has the same needs, but can satisfy them only by elementary means.
...
The person whose life tends to simplification is thirsty for belief, and he dimly clings to it with all his strength. Nobody has the right to deprive simple people of their childish certainties until they've acquired others that are more reasonable.
...
I envisage the future, therefore, as follows:
First of all, to each man his private creed. Superstition shall not lose its rights. The Party is sheltered from the danger of competing with the religions. These latter must simply be forbidden from interfering in future with temporal matters. From the tenderest age, education will be imparted in such a way that each child will know all that is important to the maintenance of the State.
...
We shall continue to preach the doctrine of National Socialism, and the young will no longer be taught anything but the truth.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 13 Sep 2020 20:36

This should be looked in the context that Hitler and Goebbles decided more persecution of religion will follow after the end of war, specially of christianity. Goebbles is writing about this in his diary quite a lot. He wanted that persecution would be stronger, but the time was not yet right. For example on 3.2. 1942 he wrote that a group of eleven priests from western Germany should be killed in his opinion, because they were listening English radio news. But Hitler will decide concerning the present situation...

Yet this does not mean Nazis did not also use religious feelings sometimes, for their own goals. For example Goebbles is writting in his diary on 30.1.1942 how Tatars were at first not very friendly toward Germans. But when they allowed them to sing religious songs from the minarets this changed. They were even able to organize armed units of Tartars to fight against Soviets and Goebbles's men used photos of Hitler and mufti al Huseini to boost this cooperation.

Some other things:

- It is of course very easy to interfere with politics or temporal matters in totalitarian state were everything is under control at least in public life

- On the other hand as the case of ''German christians'' is showing it was welcomed for churches to interfere with temporal matters if they were doing it on a ''right way''.

- It is interesting how it was normal at that time to call stars inhabited worlds like planet earth?! I wonder why they shine in that case?! Or this is just an example how Hitler was being ''to wise''.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 14 Sep 2020 00:50

wm wrote:
13 Sep 2020 07:47
The Communists were Stalin's puppets, subservient to Soviet political aims. As their goal was an armed rebellion, it didn't matter if their enemies were nice or not to them. They were going to get it anyway.
Why were Communists in other countries so eager to be Stalin's puppets? For funding?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 14 Sep 2020 00:51

wm wrote:
13 Sep 2020 18:32
In the thirties and especially during the war Hitler generally avoided conflicts with Christianity and defused all emerging conflicts (as in the case of euthanasia.)
He had his plans - to be implemented after the victory but the Germans weren't aware of them.
Have you heard of the book Hitler's Pope, wm? It argues that had the Catholic Church taken a strong stand against the persecution of Jews since 1933, they could have had significant success in this regard--similar to what they actually had with euthanasia in real life.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 14 Sep 2020 10:50

@Futurist let me answer you also about communists. You should not look on this from today's Point of view. Young People and students are asking many times for example how much communists who fought in Spain were paid by Moscow. Yet they were motivated by fanatical ideology and idealism not with money. On the other hand political dissent was also punished by death. In former kingdom of Yugoslavia many more communists were killed by their own organization than by official police. They could be killed in Yugoslavia or tricked and sent like on a mission to USSR and killed there.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 19:09

Ideological motives are worse.
You could make a deal with a greedy person - save your life, but not with a fanatic.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 19:16

Futurist wrote:
14 Sep 2020 00:50
wm wrote:
13 Sep 2020 07:47
The Communists were Stalin's puppets, subservient to Soviet political aims. As their goal was an armed rebellion, it didn't matter if their enemies were nice or not to them. They were going to get it anyway.
Why were Communists in other countries so eager to be Stalin's puppets? For funding?
Their ideology demanded a central ruling body, so it (Comintern) was created in Moscow, and Stalin took control of it.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 19:29

wm wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:16
Futurist wrote:
14 Sep 2020 00:50
wm wrote:
13 Sep 2020 07:47
The Communists were Stalin's puppets, subservient to Soviet political aims. As their goal was an armed rebellion, it didn't matter if their enemies were nice or not to them. They were going to get it anyway.
Why were Communists in other countries so eager to be Stalin's puppets? For funding?
Their ideology demanded a central ruling body, so it (Comintern) was created in Moscow, and Stalin took control of it.
A central ruling body for all worldwide Communist movements? Sounds like global tyranny to me! :(

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