We are Voting for Hitler!

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ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2021 13:39

I stick to my point .
Most people who voted for the Zentrum,did not do it because of religious reasons ,besides not all Zentrum voters were catholic .
Most people who voted for the Communists/Nazis were not Communists/Nazis .

Catholic Bavarians voted for a protestant Prussian ,for a Socialist, for a Communist, for an Austrian ,but still remained members of the Catholic Church .
Protestants also voted for the Zentrum, Socialists,for an Austrian, but still remained members of one of the Evangelical Churches.
People vote for a lot of reasons for party X,party Y ,party Z : they know the candidate, they like him, they dislike him, they judge that it is time to vote for someone else ,pensioners vote for party X because party X increased /promise to increase the pensions,they vote for party Y because they do not like the leaders of the other parties,or because they are increasing taxes,etc,etc.
The interventions from the church almost always failed .
In 1930 the German bishops declared that Catholics who openly supported the Nazi Party,or were candidates of this party were banned from the church .
The result was ...that in July 1932 the Nazis were the strongest party in Germany with 37 % of the votes while Z/BVP had only 15,7 .
Countless Catholics voted for Hitler,notwithstanding the threats from the church, and in January 1933 the catholic von Papen became Hitler's vice chancellor .
And the church remained silent .
In catholic Spain there were in 1931 communal elections in Madrid with as subject : pro or anti monarchy . The archbishop of Toledo cardinal Segura ( who was responsible for Madrid ) exhorted the Catholics to vote for the monarchy by voting for the catholic party .
The result ? An overwhelming vote against the monarchy and the king and Segura went in exile .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jan 2021 14:54

Hi ljadw,

You post, "1 There was already a catholic party in Italy in 1906 : the catholic electoral union ." Did anyone contend otherwise?

You post, "2 The Centre Party was not sacrificed : it had the choice : to be dissolved or to dissolve itself." That is a choice?

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jan 2021 15:13

Hi gebhk,

You post, "With respect to all, it's just as nonsensical to say that religion plays the least part of all in everyday decisions and behaviour as it does to say that all members of a religious denomination vote in the same way."

These are two different things. The first part is patently improbable as it implies that having a particular religious upbringing has no influence on anyone at all and that when presented with competing choices it is a toss up which way they will lean.

The second part is true, but I don't think anyone is claiming that all members of a religious denomination vote in the same way.

You post, "Religion is inextricably intertwined with culture and some might say is the root source of culture." Intertwined, undoubtedly, but I would only go to far as to say it was a root source of culture.

You post, "I am sure I'm not the first to have thought that the immense magnetism of movements such as Nazism and Soviet Communism was that they presented as non-theistic religions; both in their ethos: demanding blind faith in an esoteric reality and unquestioning reverent obedience to an arbitrary set of rules and in their methodology: a hierarchical structure, rites, messiahs, martyrs, places of worship, punishment of the wicked, rooting out dissent etc. In short religions are a means for moulding culture and a powerful tool for maintaining cultural conformity. To pretend this has little or no impact on people's voting patterns is naïve in the extreme."

Yup. Family, sept, tribe and race all bind people together by physical relationship, but religion allows influence over people that extends beyond these bonds and most make claims on all of humanity. Strangely, neither the Nazis nor religious Jewry seem to.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2021 15:49

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Jan 2021 14:54
Hi ljadw,

You post, "1 There was already a catholic party in Italy in 1906 : the catholic electoral union ." Did anyone contend otherwise?

You post, "2 The Centre Party was not sacrificed : it had the choice : to be dissolved or to dissolve itself." That is a choice?

Cheers,

Sid.
1 Yes : You :in post 128 : you said that the Vatican did not want catholic Italians even to vote til WWI .
This is not correct ,as before WWI there was a catholic party which was represented in parliament .
2 Yes : this was a choice and the Zentrum Party decided to dissolve itself,a choice which was much better for the Zentrum Party .
The SPD had not this choice : it could not dissolve itself : it was banned .
The consequences of being banned and voluntary dissolution are very different .
To refuse dissolution would be a suicidal act of resistance to the regime ,with as consequence for the party leaders persecution and KL.
Dissolution meant that they could hold their pension and to continue non political activities .

gebhk
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by gebhk » 08 Jan 2021 19:52

Strangely, neither the Nazis nor religious Jewry seem to.
Mmmm - debatable. Christianity after all developed out of what was originally a Judaic sect, much as Islam grew out of a very small geographical area. As for Nazism, it was self-limiting because of its 'elitist' aspirations. Despite that it still has an international following, ironically even among those whom the original Nazis would have killed out of hand.

Nevertheless, I don't think that undermines the principle. Off course, just like burger joint brands, some make it bigger than others, often for no discernible reason (why Wendy Burger failed in the UK while other inferior products thrive is a mystery to me - though I am glad to say they are planning to return). However the universality of religion, whatever form it takes, is to my mind evidence of it being genetically encoded. The belief in a higher set of values than our immediate personal benefit must be beneficial to our success as a species, otherwise evolution would not have allowed it.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021 11:39

Hi ljadw,

Once again you are inventing things that I do not have to defend.

What I said was that the Vatican was opposed to Catholilc participation in organized politics. Popes since 1870 had explicitly forbidden it. On 11 June 1905 Pius X confirmed the general prohibition against participating in elections in Il fermo proposito. It was only withdrawn by Benedict XV in 1919, something of which his successor, Pius XI, did not approve.

None of this stopped some Italians forming avowedly Catholic political parties against Papal will, nor have I, or anyone else here, ever said that it did.

Apology accepted.

Dissolution under threat of "...consequence for the party leaders persecution and KL." is hardly "voluntary" is it?

In your own words you are describing an act brought about by compulsion and yet still seem to think it voluntary!

In such a world, the victims of threatening muggers are making voluntary financial contributions to them!!!!!!

Cheers,

Sid

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021 12:00

Hi gebhk,

Wendy Burger is planning to return to the UK? What is their USP? I get "flame grilled" for Burger KIng, but what has Wendy's got to offer that MacDonalds doesn't? As a patriot, I would prefer to see Wimpey make a comeback.

To less important matters:

You post, "However the universality of religion, whatever form it takes, is to my mind evidence of it being genetically encoded. The belief in a higher set of values than our immediate personal benefit must be beneficial to our success as a species, otherwise evolution would not have allowed it."

I don't think genetic encoding has anything to do with it. I see it as a cultural phenomenon. (More meme that gene?)

I am not at sure that religion contributes to our success as a species, but it certainly seems to give some parts of our species competitive advantages over other parts of our species.

However, I agree when you write; "The belief in a higher set of values than our immediate personal benefit must be beneficial".

Intense faith and belief gives collective strength to groups, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, good or bad, and advantages them against competitors who are less certain of themselves, however virtuous the latter may be.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Posts: 11340
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2021 12:11

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Jan 2021 11:39
Hi ljadw,

Once again you are inventing things that I do not have to defend.

What I said was that the Vatican was opposed to Catholilc participation in organized politics. Popes since 1870 had explicitly forbidden it. On 11 June 1905 Pius X confirmed the general prohibition against participating in elections in Il fermo proposito. It was only withdrawn by Benedict XV in 1919, something of which his successor, Pius XI, did not approve.

None of this stopped some Italians forming avowedly Catholic political parties against Papal will, nor have I, or anyone else here, ever said that it did.

Apology accepted.

Dissolution under threat of "...consequence for the party leaders persecution and KL." is hardly "voluntary" is it?

In your own words you are describing an act brought about by compulsion and yet still seem to think it voluntary!

In such a world, the victims of threatening muggers are making voluntary financial contributions to them!!!!!!

Cheers,

Sid
No : you are wrong .
The Encyclical of 1905 was about the Catholic Action in Italy, not about Catholics participating to political life .
And ,when ONE year later ,a Catholic party was formed and Catholics were elected for parliament, Pius X did not condemn them ,which means that silently he approved them .There is no proof that this party operated against the will of the pope .The pope would not accept openly that Catholics would participate in Italian politics, neither would he openly condemn them . After all : we are in Italy .
About the dissolution,here also you are wrong .
The Zentrum had 3 options :
1 to do as the Socialists and Communists : going in opposition, with the negative results we know .
2 collaborate with the regime, with as result that there would be no CDU after the war,
3 remaining neutral and stopping with politics as long as the regime existed .
They chose the third option .No one forced them to do it .Unless their own electors who did not want to fight against the regime and did not want their party to collaborate with the regime .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2021 12:55

In 1905 ,Pius 10 authorized the bishops to allow Catholics to exercise their legislative rights when ''the supreme good of society was at stake . ''

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021 13:12

Hi ljadw,

You really should read what you are quoting: Article 18 Il fermo proposito reads in part:

"These civil rights are of various kinds, even to the extent of directly participating in the political life of the country by representing the people in the legislative halls. Most serious reasons, however, dissuade Us, Venerable Brethren, from departing from that norm which Our Predecessor, Leo XIII, of blessed memory, decreed during his Pontificate. According to his decree it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power."

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2021 16:41

NO : what you are saying and interpreting is not correct .
Pius X said that his predecessor had forbidden Catholics in Italy to participate in legislative elections .
Pius X did not say that he did forbid Catholics in Italy to participate in legislative elections . The catholic party that participated in legislative elections existed already in 1906,and its chief count Gentiloni was not condemned by the pope,which means that the pope approved what he did .And ,what did he ? He made a silent de facto coalition with the Italian PM Giolitti .
In 1904 the pope gave Catholics the informal permission to vote for governmental candidates in areas where the socialists could win .
When in 1913 the pact between Giolitti and Gentiloni leaked out, the left wing liberals left the government and Giolitti was out .
The Vatican disliked the liberals, but the socialists were the greatest enemy . Thus, we are in Italy, the motto of the Vatican was : the enemy of my enemy is my ally .
It was the same for Giolitti : he could remain PM only with the support of the Vatican .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021 17:20

Hi ljadw,

You post, "Pius X did not say that he did forbid Catholics in Italy to participate in legislative elections."

Yes, that is precisely what he did say, in public, in Il fermo proposito in 1905.

Read Article 18 again (or possibly for the first time).

Cheers.

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by gebhk » 09 Jan 2021 19:06

I am not at sure that religion contributes to our success as a species
Hi Sid - perhaps because I am a biologist by training, I find it difficult to credit that a phenomenon that is absolutely universal - it is present even in groups that have been separated from the rest of humanity for millennia - is not beneficial, indeed essential to our success as a species. If it were not beneficial, then the energy expended on observance would have put believers at a disadvantage compared to non-believers and led to their eventual extinction.
I don't think genetic encoding has anything to do with it. I see it as a cultural phenomenon.
This argument only makes sense if you accept that our desire for and susceptibility to culture is not part of our genetic makeup. Again, given the universality of these, I can't credit that it is not. This of course brings us back to the futile debate about nature vs nurture that my university lecturers tried very hard to draw me into :roll: . Because it is, in effect, an iteration of the chicken and egg debate, you just end up disappearing up your own backside in a puff of logic. :thumbsup:

gebhk
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by gebhk » 09 Jan 2021 19:39

Onto more important and certainly more practical matters
Wendy Burger is planning to return to the UK? What is their USP? I get "flame grilled" for Burger KIng, but what has Wendy's got to offer that MacDonalds doesn't? As a patriot, I would prefer to see Wimpey make a comeback.
If that sort of thing is important to you, their USP was that their patties were square :o . Also, unlike, say, McDs, they made up the burger exactly to your requirements from whatever the basic ingredients were - as I recall (well it was 20 years plus ago) some sad sack calculated mathematically how many possible variants there were and the figure was impressive. Despite that, you didn't have to wait longer than for a McDs (how they managed that I've no idea) and probably quicker than under the new system McDs have introduced in the last few years. Also, a point my friend was quick to emphasize, the food was always hot whereas at Mc Ds it never is and now with the super new system even less so. I don' much care, but she is of those that are not happy with their hot food unless it scalds off mucous membranes off her mouth.

Why do you consider Wimpey's more patriotic than Wendys?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021 22:25

Hi gebhk,

I consider that Wimpy (I got the spelling wrong above) more patriotic that Wendy's, etc., because it was the first burger chain in the UK and bigger here than anywhere else, including the USA. At one point its international franchise business was British owned:

"In 1954, Gold sold a licence to J. Lyons and Co. to use the Wimpy name in the United Kingdom.[7][8] Wimpy Grills Inc. of Chicago later formed a joint company with Lyons called Wimpy's International Inc. in 1957. Wimpy's International was based in Chicago and allowed the brand to operate Wimpy Grills in the rest of the world.[9]

The joint company eventually grew to 1,500 locations, with Gold later selling his share to Lyons prior to his death.[6] After obtaining full control of the international licensing outside of the United States, Lyons and its successors handled global franchising through their United Kingdom-based subsidiary Wimpy International Ltd. This arrangement ceased when Wimpy UK became a subsidiary of the South Africa-based Famous Brands in 2007. The South African company started to handle worldwide franchising duties directly from Johannesburg.
"

I can even remember sitting outside a Wimpy Bar in Salisbury, Rhodesia, in 1978-79 "perving" the girls with US friends on R&R. Indeed, I learnt the word "perving" off them while on its premises. So it wasn't just British, it was imperial, or perhaps just post-colonial. Happy, if deeply non-PC, days!

Besides, (a sidestep here to keep on AHF's central subject) "Wimpey" was a nickname for the RAF's Wellington bomber.

Eat Wimpy - the Patriotic Choice. You know it makes sense!

Cheers,

Sid.

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