We are Voting for Hitler!

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gebhk
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by gebhk » 10 Jan 2021 10:08

Fair enough Sid. I just thought you might have some connection with Indiana....

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 10 Jan 2021 10:18

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Jan 2021 17:20
Hi ljadw,

You post, "Pius X did not say that he did forbid Catholics in Italy to participate in legislative elections."

Yes, that is precisely what he did say, in public, in Il fermo proposito in 1905.

Read Article 18 again (or possibly for the first time).

Cheers.

Sid.
NO : he did not . He said that his predecessor forbade Catholics to participate in legislative elections .
And, when in 1906, ONE year after his encyclical, there was a Catholic party participating in elections, he did not condemn this party .
Besides , it is more than probable that already in 1905 he knew of the preparations to create this party .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 10 Jan 2021 10:44

From Article 18 :
''Other reasons,equally grave however,founded upon the supreme good of society which must be preserved at all costs,demand that in particular cases a dispensation from the law be granted,especially when you,......,recognize the strict
necessity of it for the good of souls and the interest of your churches,and you request such a dispensation .''
In plain English :you can participate in the elections ( elect and be elected ) when it is needed to prevent a socialist from being elected .And, who would decide that there was a danger that a Socialist would be elected ? Not the Vatican, but the local Catholics : laymen and priests .
And ,from Article 19 :
'' This concession places a duty on all Catholics to prepare themselves prudently and seriously for political life in case they may be called to it . ''
In plain English : prepare you to be involved in politics .
In 1913 ,the Catholic Party was one of the biggest forces in Italian politics .
And Pius X did not condemn .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Jan 2021 11:56

Hi ljadw,

Yup, so?

The political landscape in Italy was shifting leftwards beneath the Vatican's feet and one can see the gradual erosion of its position on participation in politics in the first decades of the 20th Century, as I have mentioned above.

But the fact remains that in 1905 official policy was explicitly encapsulated in the following: "....it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power." This is unambiguous and does not require translation into your "simple English".

Does Pius X here signal a possible future shift in position? Quite possibly.

Does he make such a shift in 1905? No! He reiterates his predecessors' universal prohibition on Italian Catholics participating in organised politics.

Of course, the Vatican's position was not one of heavenly principle. It was pure, earthly pragmatism. If it officially allowed Italian Catholics to vote in Italian state elections, it implied de facto recognition of Italy's annexation of the Papal States in 1870. In the 1920s it cynically threw the PPI under the oncoming Fascist bus in order to pave the way for the Lateran Treaty, which at last recognized the Vatican's secular legal status and boundaries and the Italian annexation of the Papal States in 1870.

One useful sidelight on this is that the prohibition on voting is couched specifically in terms of Italy. There is no mention of Catholic political participation elsewhere.

Cheers,

Sid

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 10 Jan 2021 14:41

From the Catholic Historical Review Tome 61 No 1 pp31-47 (available on JSTOR )
''Germania doceat '' The ''Volksverein " The Model for Italian Catholic Action .
Note 4 :
''Il Fermo Proposito announced a DRAMATIC CHANGE (my emphasis ) in Italian political life by informing Italian Catholics that the Non Expedit, the ban that prevented their participation in Italian elections since Unification,would be lifted in the future in localities where Catholic presence at the polls would be necessary to defeat radical, anticlerical candidates like the Socialists . ''
Here you have it : a dramatic change .
The fact that there was already a year later a catholic party,indicates that the preparations for this party started already BEFORE the encyclical,with the blessing of the pope and that the decision to lift Non Expedit preceded Il Fermo Proposito,which was only an information that the policy of the Vatican had changed .
Other point : as in 1933 with the Zentrum in Germany,the PPI was not thrown under the bus :as the Zentrum,the PPI had the choice between
collaboration with the Fascists
opposition to the Fascists
neutrality
And as the Zentrum, the PPI ( not the Vatican ) chose the best solution for the PPI,for Catholicism, for the Vatican, for Italy : neutrality by dissolving itself .
No one could after 1945 blame the PPI for collaborating with the regime, thus it could reappear under a new name : Democratia Christiana .
It was the same for the Zentrum which became now the CDU .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Jan 2021 12:14

Hi ljadw,

You post, "'Il Fermo Proposito announced a DRAMATIC CHANGE (my emphasis ) in Italian political life by informing Italian Catholics that the Non Expedit, the ban that prevented their participation in Italian elections since Unification,would be lifted in the future in localities where Catholic presence at the polls would be necessary to defeat radical, anticlerical candidates like the Socialists ."

Yup, there you have it - "in the future".

I have noted above that the Vatican allowed Catholics to vote before WWI and that it tolerated the PPI over 1919-1925.

Furthermore, your quote should read "could", not "would" as Article 19 says, doubly conditionally, "in case they may be called to it".

Until then, the Vatican line, as articulated in Article 18 of Il Fermo Proposito was unambiguous: "....it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power."

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 11 Jan 2021 14:22

The Vatican line was very AMBIGOUS: The Catholic Electoral union participated already in November 1904 on the elections and obtained 3 seats .
The ban would be'' lifted openly'' in the future but was already lifted in the past .Three Catholics were elected with the blessing of the pope in 1904, one year before Il Fermo Proposito .
And, the Vatican did not ''tolerate '' the PPI.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Jan 2021 17:13

Hi ljadw,

You post, "Three Catholics were elected with the blessing of the pope in 1904....."

And your evidence for this is.......?

It certainly directly contradicts Article 18 of his 1905 Il Fermo Proposito: "....it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power."

Please clarify what you mean by, "And, the Vatican did not ''tolerate '' the PPI". It is ambiguous.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 11 Jan 2021 17:33

Evidence : Wiki : Italian elections of 1904 .
3 Catholics were elected, and, as they were not banned by the pope, they were blessed by the pope .
Sid : you make the fault by looking at the content of the encyclical, while you must look at what the pope did not say : he did not say that he forbade and condemned the participation of Catholics on the elections and he did not say that the ban was lifted .
Besides : what he said was debunked by what he did : he tolerated the participation on the elections .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Jan 2021 19:06

Hi ljadw,

Wiki? Really? You are desperate!

Not only that, but you have to invent "they were blessed by the pope".

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 11 Jan 2021 21:29

Wiki gives the results of the Italian elections of November 1904 ! Google :Italian elections in 1904 .
Blessed by the pope means : with the approval of the pope .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 11 Jan 2021 21:40

''Already before he became pope, Sarto questioned the continuation of the Non Expedit ....''
Source :The Papacy in the Modern World:a Political History . ( by F.Cappa )

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Jan 2021 22:17

Hi ljadw,

I have asked you many times before for links, but you repeatedly don't provide any.

Please provide the link to "they were blessed by the pope".

If you don't your post is worthless.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 12 Jan 2021 07:34

The pope allowed in 1904 Catholics to vote and to be elected .
That is a fact .
That means that they had the approval of the pope .
No condemnation means approval .
And blessings is only an other word for approval .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jan 2021 14:33

Hi ljadw,

So now you are saying there was no "they were blessed by the pope"?

That you made it up?

I note that you still haven't put up the link you claimed said this.

I put it to you that you invented it and that is why you are refusing to put up the link.

And no, "No condemnation" does not "mean approval".

For instance, I don't recall you condemning, say, the so-called Holocaust, or Armenian genocide, or ISIS beheadings, or 9/11. Does this mean you approve? Of course not!

Article 18 of his 1905 Il Fermo Proposito: "....it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power.". This is a direct and unambiguous statement of Vatican policy in that year. It may or may not have been what the then Pope preferred, but he wrote Il Fermo Proposito and that is the fact of the matter.

Cheers,

Sid.

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