We are Voting for Hitler!

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Jan 2021 15:45

Hi ljadw,

Try again:

"Most serious reasons, however, dissuade Us, Venerable Brethren, from departing from that norm which Our Predecessor, Leo XIII, of blessed memory, decreed during his Pontificate. According to his decree it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power."

I have underlined "Us" on this occasion in case you have missed that the "Us" referred to is Pius X, as sovereign, using the royal "We" as he endorses Leo XIII's "norm".

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2021 10:36

:roll:
Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Jan 2021 15:45
Hi ljadw,

Try again:

"Most serious reasons, however, dissuade Us, Venerable Brethren, from departing from that norm which Our Predecessor, Leo XIII, of blessed memory, decreed during his Pontificate. According to his decree it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power."

I have underlined "Us" on this occasion in case you have missed that the "Us" referred to is Pius X, as sovereign, using the royal "We" as he endorses Leo XIII's "norm".

Cheers,

Sid.
:roll:
Sid is wisely hiding what Pius X said after this quote :
''Óther reasons, equally grave however,founded upon the supreme good of society which must be preserved at all costs demand that in particular cases a dispensation be granted .........''
And, let's look at an authoritative source = The Catholic Encyclopedia , from ...1913 ! (and who was pope in 1913 ? )
About the Non Expedit ( by Umberto Benigni 1862-1934 )
''In 1882 Leo XIII took into serious consideration the partial abolition of the restrictions established by the Non Expedit,but nothing was actually done (cf''Archiv fúr kathol.Kirchenrecht,1904, P 396 ).
Later,...Pius X modified the Non Expedit,declaring that when there was question of preventing the election of a ''subversive '' candidate,the bishops could ask for a suspension of the rule,and invite the Catholics to hold themselves in readiness to go to the polls .''
And, an other source :
Enfranchisement and representation :evidence from the introduction of ''quasi universal ''suffrage in Italy .
P 7 :'' From the early 20th century,local bishops could demand a dispensation from the pope .A few dispensations were granted for the first time in 1904 .''

In plain English : Pius X gave already in 1904, before Il Fermo Proposito, Catholics the dispensation to vote and to be elected .
And, it is obvious that you can't /refuse to understand that Pius X would not openly repudiate his predecessor two years after becoming pope.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jan 2021 11:32

Hi ljadw,

No, Sid is not "wisely hiding" anything.

He is simply addressing the nub of your previous post.

The full text of Article 18 is discussed above by both of us and is not at all hidden.

Anyway, on the positive side, in posting, "local bishops could demand a dispensation from the pope" you are at last agreeing with my point that in Il fermo proposito the Pope was the ultimate arbiter, not the Bishops.

However, I would suggest that "demand" is the wrong word. The Bishops were subordinate and could ask for dispensation from the Pope, but they couldn't "demand" it of him. (I wonder if this hasn't come through a poor Italian translation. In Italian, "demandare" means "to ask".)

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2021 14:55

No : I am not agreeing with your point that the Pope was the ultimate arbiter, not the Bishops ,because : the Bishops asked and the Pope said : yes .
There are no examples where the Pope said : no to a Bishop who asked for a dispensation .And there are no examples where the Pope gave a dispensation to a bishop who did not ask for a dispensation .
The reason is obvious : the local Bishops knew the local situation and the Pope did not know the local situation .
The Pope said : ask ,and you shall receive .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jan 2021 15:09

Hi ljadw,

I call in evidence not only Article 28 of Il fermo proposito, (which ends ".....and you request such a dispensation"), but your own source which, according to you, says, "local bishops could demand a dispensation from the pope".

It is immaterial whether the Pope did or did not give such dispensation, they still had to ask him.

If you don't accept the words in writing of Pius X, or your own quoted source, one has to wonder what standard of evidence you would accept?

Cheers,

An amused Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 23 Jan 2021 13:18

If they did not ask for dispensation, the Pope could not give dispensation .And, as there is no evidence that the Pope refused ever a request for dispensation, or gave dispensation when no dispensation was asked, one can safely conclude that the initiative belonged to the bishops/local catholic leaders. The Pope signed . That's all he did .He could not take the initiative, for obvious reasons .
Saretta Marotta wrote a paper about all this. Title :The Agony of the Non Expedit .
Some citations :
''The origins of Italian Catholic abstentionism cannot be attributed to directives of the Holy See or pronouncements of the pontiff but to an article by a famous Catholic publicist ."
''In 1867 the bishops of Piedmont imposed the faithful the obligation to participate in all elections ,''
''In 1868 the non expedit had been established as a temporary measure ''
''In 1876 the Holy See said that it was the religious duty of Catholics to take part in political elections .''
''The intention of Leo XIII was that the non expedit should be abolished to permit the birth of a large Catholic political party as the German Zentrum ..''
''In 1900 priests had gone to the polls ...''
''As before the Penitentiary continued to respond to the bishops :tolerari posse ''Which means : it is allowed to vote/to be elected .
''Pius X avoided an official abolition of the ban throughout his pontificate '' In other words : the ban was unofficialy abolished .
''Thanks to the ban we have avoided compromising ourselves by an irremediable present in order to preserve ourselves for a future that cannot be taken away from us .'' This was the opinion of the Christian democrats .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jan 2021 14:16

HYi ljadw,

It is immaterial whether the Pope did or did not give dispensations, or how many there were.

The fact remains that they had to be sought from him.

I again call in evidence not only Article 28 of Il fermo proposito, (which ends ".....and you request such a dispensation"), but your own source which, according to you, says, "local bishops could demand a dispensation from the pope".

I am interested that you quote, "'The intention of Leo XIII was that the non expedit should be abolished to permit the birth of a large Catholic political party as the German Zentrum.''

In post #10 on this thread you posted, "But the Zentrum party was not the German Catholics." Perhaps, not, but it was clearly meant to be for them.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 23 Jan 2021 15:51

''you request such a dispensation " : who is ''you '' ? The Pope did not say that it was not the local bishops .
Of course the Zentrum was not the German Catholics ,as the Catholic Party in Belgium was only a minority of the Belgian Catholics ,the same for the Catholic party in the Netherlands .
The intention of Leo XIII did not became reality : there was no Catholic Party in Italy .
The reason why is the dissensions between the Catholics and the probable very negative reactions from the anti-clerical groups in Italy and the fear for a schism by the enemies of the House of Savoye ,who would attack the Vatican .A very big part of the Catholics in Italy would not accept the existence of a Catholic party ,the MPs of which would be compelled to sweat an oath of loyalty to the king who had occupied the papal state .
The Pope had excommunicated the king, thus he could not say publicly that Catholic politicians should swear an oath of loyalty to the king .He said it privately .
''The abstention was considered a temporary measure,awaiting possible international solutions to the Roman Question and in the hope that in the meantime the fragility of the new Italian State would lead to its implosion under the weight of under the weight of its own contradictions and the opposition from the left .'' (Zaretta Marotta )

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jan 2021 16:09

Hi ljadw,

You ask of Il Fermo Proposito, 'Who is "you"?'.

"You" is primarily the Bishops of Italy.

Its fuller title is, "Lettera Enciclica il fermo proposito del sommo Pontefice Pio X ai venerabili fratelli patriarchi primati arcivescovi vescovi e agli altri ordinari aventi con l'Apostolica Sede pace e comunione."

You post, "The intention of Leo XIII did not became reality: there was no Catholic Party in Italy."

Yet in Post #129 you say "There was already a catholic party in Italy in 1906: the catholic electoral union."

Consistency is not exactly your middle name but, credit where credit is due, you are al least consistent in your inconsistency!

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 23 Jan 2021 17:38

There is a difference between a catholic party and a Catholic Party : a catholic party is a catholic party without the name of Catholic Party .A Catholic Party is a catholic party that has also the name of Catholic Party .
The Zentrum was a catholic party,the Dutch Rooms-Katholieke Staatspartij was a Catholic Party .
The influence of the church is greater in a Catholic Party than in a catholic party .The Zentrum was loyal to the pope in church matters but independent in secular matters ,while the Dutch Catholic party had a priest as leader .
If you is primarily the bishops , something the pope did not say , it means that you was also the lay people .
In 1904, Pius X met a delegation of Catholic lay people + bishops to speak about the next elections in Bergamo and said :; do as your conscience tells you .
And about Catholic Party : In February 1919 La Civilta Cattolica said the following : ''The new ''People's Party '' is not, is not called and can not be called ,in accurate terms, a '' Catholic Party .'.... ''
Thus , I am not wrong to say that there was no Catholic Party in Italy .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jan 2021 18:42

Hi ljadw,

"catholic" with a lower case "c" already has a definition in English not directly related to Roman Catholicism.

Nor can I find your usage anywhere else.

I have no objection to you creating your own definitions for the sake of this discussion, but please tell us in advance.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 23 Jan 2021 21:03

There was a reason why the Zentrum party was officially not called the Catholic Party,the same for the Partido Popular in Spain,or the Partito Populare of Sturzo : the Vatican tried to avoid the creation of open catholic parties (Catholic Parties ) because it would unify the anti clerical groups,because it would divide the Catholics and because such parties would very soon become independent of the Vatican .
The Vatican had more influence on the Electoral Electoral Union than on Sturzo's People's Party,because the small ECU was more homogenous than the PP which was strongly divided in left and right :if Sturzo had to chose ,he would have made an alliance with the Socialists against the Fascists . ,more influence on the Bayerische Volkspartei than on the CSU from Strauss ,because the CSU was less catholic than the BVP.
The Catholics who did not vote for the Zentrum could convince themselves that they remained loyal to the Pope .If the Zentrum had as name Deutsche Katholische Partei, a Catholic who would not vote for this party would be lost for the church .
In 1945 the Catholic Party in Belgium was transformed in the CVP/PSC ( Christelijke Volkspartij/Parti Social Chretien ) and the influence of the church was decreasing already before the war . A lot of Catholics who voted for Rex and VNV (flemish nationalists ) were blamed by the church and left the church .
Pius X and his predecessors/successors knew very well that a party considered as the party of the Vatican,would only hasten the process of secularization .
Catholics would vote easier for a party without a direct connection with the church .
And anti-clerical parties would easier ally to such a party .
Those who would vote against a party with a Catholic name ,would also vote against the church ,while those who voted against the Zentrum were not leaving the church .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 26 Jan 2021 19:14

Latze wrote:
16 Jan 2021 22:20
ljadw wrote:
16 Jan 2021 13:14
Divided Friends is NOT about the US ,Pius X did not intervene in US elections .
Divided Friends is available on the internet .
I must admit that I do wonder why the author choose to title the book "Divided Friends: Portraits of the Roman Catholic Modernist Crisis in the United States" then.
A late reply :
Pius X did not intervene in US elections, neither did the Catholic Bishops.
There was a Modernist Crisis in the whole Catholic Church ,not only in the US, and Modernism was stronger in Europe than in the US.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jan 2021 22:58

Hi ljadw,

That may well be, but is that what the book "Divided Friends" is about?

You are being suspiciously oblique in your replies.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 27 Jan 2021 07:22

In a lot of cases title and content differ .
Divided Friends is about Modernism,not about the Catholic Church in the US .

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