The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
Post Reply
history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#211

Post by history1 » 08 Oct 2013, 19:34

Paulheald, the question which cames in my mind is " Is the tram which appears in the photos the one who was there at the time of explosion"? I doubt that because in your post (06 Oct 2013 11:29) we can see a shield on the back of the 2nd waagon which states in the first line "Dienstwagen" = staff car, company car. Sadly I´m not able to read the word below, too blurry.
IMHO the tram is only a replacement for the original one.

User avatar
Mauser K98k
Member
Posts: 766
Joined: 30 Aug 2003, 04:29
Location: Colorado

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#212

Post by Mauser K98k » 09 Oct 2013, 00:48

Thanks for the great photos, Paulheald.

It looks to me, judging from the shadows cast by the car, tram, power poles, etc. that those photos may have been taken the following morning.

Since the Gestapo was informed of the attack about 10:45 and were slow to take it seriously, I can't see how they could have
gotten an investigative team and photographers on site before high noon.

BTW, does anyone have the coordinates for the butcher shop that Gabcik first ran to?
Last edited by Mauser K98k on 09 Oct 2013, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.


GregSingh
Member
Posts: 3877
Joined: 21 Jun 2012, 02:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#213

Post by GregSingh » 09 Oct 2013, 08:03

According to Czech sources, Brauner's shop was at the address - Na Zápalčí 22.
These days street is called Pomezni. Thanks to multimedia.ctk.cz and Google Maps, I attached now and then photos.
Attachments
Na Zapalci 22.jpg
multimedia.ctk.cz
Na Zapalci 22.jpg (41.92 KiB) Viewed 1994 times
Pomezni 22.jpg
Google Maps

Paulheald
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 19:15

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#214

Post by Paulheald » 09 Oct 2013, 09:06

Thanks Mauser K98k for your kind words, it has been a pleasure to post a few additional pics of the assassination scene. History 1 poses a very good point in that the tram shown in the pics may not be the original one that took the force of the explosion. As he mentioned on 7th October, the German caption to the photograph reads, "assumed position of the tram at the moment of explosion"". I cannot think that the Gestapo would have moved the tram, as it would have been an integral part of their "crime scene" investigation. So maybe the tram company owners reacted quicker than the Gestapo and moved the tram before the latter got on the scene. It’s all very puzzling.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#215

Post by wm » 09 Oct 2013, 19:57

Paulheald wrote:If we look carefully at the tram window it looks like the glass is still in place indicated by the discolouration of the top corners of the window. If the tram had been in this position at the time of the explosion, surely the window would have been heavily scarred or even blown out completely? I know that blast does do peculiar things, but looking at other pics of the tram I see no obvious signs of blast damage.
This shows the blast wave impact from a 1kg TNT explosion, but becasue the handgranade used was less I think it would be resonable to assume the minor injuries zone about 7 meters. And the car more or less sheltered the tram from the blast so its no wonder it escaped damage.
It's worth nothing that the front of the car, especially the spare tire, looks undamaged. The blast wasn't as terrible as it's frequently claimed.

But the problem with the proximity of the tram to the place of the assassination, and why I had my doubts about it, is that Gabčík would have had to fire almost directly into the tram, no mater where he was standing, as shown below. I think, in such adverse circumstances, they would have aborted the mission, the tram was too close for comfort.
b2.jpg
Heydrich - konečné řešení
b1.jpg
Sokolovo

Paulheald
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 19:15

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#216

Post by Paulheald » 10 Oct 2013, 07:53

Yes, good thinking wm. If I re-post my first diagram "Heydrich bend 1" - it does show that the area of the blast debris field does not seem to have had much of an adverse effect on the tram. Maybe the author Callum Mac Donald was using a bit of artistic license when describing the event, “....Instead of landing inside the Mercedes, it exploded against the rear wheel, throwing shrapnel back into Kubis’ face and shattering the windows of the tram which had stopped on the opposite side of the road. There were screams as the passengers were hit by shards of flying glass and metal.”
Heydrich bend 1.jpg
Per courtesy Jaroslav Čvančara

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#217

Post by history1 » 10 Oct 2013, 10:53

wm wrote:[...] This shows the blast wave impact from a 1kg TNT explosion, but becasue the handgranade used was less I think it would be resonable to assume the minor injuries zone about 7 meters.
I have to disagree with your calculation. Just take a look at this vid, US- marines blowing up 1 pound TNT loads. I´m sure no one want to stay just 15 m near them: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0d2_1198134994
wm wrote: And the car more or less sheltered the tram from the blast so its no wonder it escaped damage.
Agree

Paulheald
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 19:15

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#218

Post by Paulheald » 10 Oct 2013, 14:02

I find that most descriptions of the attack refer to the explosive device used as being an "Anti-Tank Grenade" rather than a "Hand Grenade". Presumably the Anti-Tank Grenade packed more punch than the Hand Grenade. However, I hasten to add that I am no expert on Ordnance. A picture of the second unused explosive device is attached for the general interest of the group.
Attachments
Heydrich bend 10.jpg
Per courtesy Jaroslav Čvančara

Paulheald
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 19:15

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#219

Post by Paulheald » 11 Oct 2013, 10:08

I was interested to see how the movie "7-men at Daybreak" handled the assassination attempt on Heydrich Bend: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... hpSaQ05Nts>
Bearing in mind that this film was made in 1975, when the Czech Republic was still under the Soviet domination, this no doubt made access to archive material quite difficult. In spite of this, not a bad film at all. I think that Anton Diffring made a good portayal of Heydrich.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#220

Post by wm » 11 Oct 2013, 19:44

Properly it was a concussion grenade, shorter and lighter than its father, a true but obsolete British anti-tank grenade. Both were designed to not produce sharpnel, and they didn't. A proper fragmentation grenade, like the one used in the movie Operation Daybreak would not only turn Heydrich into a sieve but decimate the people on the tram, too.
Concussion grenades have the casualty radius about 2 meters, and the fact that the driver wasn't even injured proves that.
Those US-marines placed their explosives directly on the soft soil there, so there were impressive clouds of dirt as result, they were impressive but not deadly. This can easily be verified by using one of the many dynamic blast pressure calculators available on the internet.

below a comparison of the concussion and the anti-tank grenade:
hg1.jpg
hg1.jpg (21.25 KiB) Viewed 1903 times
one of those abandoned after the assassination:
hg2.jpg
hg2.jpg (21.98 KiB) Viewed 1903 times
from: Heydrich - konečné řešení

User avatar
von thoma
Member
Posts: 6516
Joined: 10 Jul 2010, 04:40
Location: Spain

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#221

Post by von thoma » 12 Oct 2013, 00:26

I think that Anton Diffring made a good portayal of Heydrich.
Mmmm no.
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#222

Post by wm » 12 Oct 2013, 10:39

It could be worse:
Hangmen Also Die!.jpg
Hangmen Also Die!.jpg (21.81 KiB) Viewed 1881 times
Hitler's madman.jpg
Hitler's madman.jpg (18.06 KiB) Viewed 1881 times
Paulheald wrote: Maybe the author Callum Mac Donald was using a bit of artistic license when describing the event, “....Instead of landing inside the Mercedes, it exploded against the rear wheel, throwing shrapnel back into Kubis’ face and shattering the windows of the tram which had stopped on the opposite side of the road. There were screams as the passengers were hit by shards of flying glass and metal.”
It could be worse :) :
Heydrich had just risen to his feet in the now-stationary car when the grenade exploded with a force powerful enough to shatter all the windows in a passing tram. Although it missed the Mercedes, the blast tore off the door. Splinters from the grenade embedded themselves in Heydrich's body.
from: A Higher Form of Killing

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#223

Post by wm » 12 Oct 2013, 11:21

One of the peculiarities of the grenade used was its safety tape:
tape1.jpg
tape1.jpg (20.8 KiB) Viewed 1879 times
from: Heydrich - konečné řešení

it unwinded itself during the flight arming the grenade, at that moment any jolt would detonate it - but it couldn't detonate in mid flight unlike most of the better known grenades - only on impact. And the tape ensured it wouldn't happen during the very act of throwing.
The tape usually landed near the target, it's possible it is marked on Paulheald's diagram as 25.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#224

Post by wm » 12 Oct 2013, 11:22

The bend in 1974, from the movie Sokolovo:
1974.jpg

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: The place where Heydrich´s attempt was.

#225

Post by history1 » 12 Oct 2013, 12:15

wm wrote:[...]
it unwinded itself during the flight arming the grenade, at that moment any jolt would detonate it - but it couldn't detonate in mid flight unlike most of the better known grenades - only on impact. And the tape ensured it wouldn't happen during the very act of throwing.
The tape usually landed near the target, it's possible it is marked on Paulheald's diagram as 25.
The number 25 marks a piece of duck tape from the bomb (= Isolierband von Bombe). This tapes are AFAIK sticky and cant unwind itself. It´s only possible that it´s a part of the winding around the bomb body.
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”