Nazi cyanide suicides

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Manstein
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Nazi cyanide suicides

#1

Post by Manstein » 25 Jan 2004, 03:11

Many Nazis committed suicide by biting into cyanide capsules after the war. Apparently, these killed them almost instantly. But how? Cyanide takes around twelve minutes to kill someone and it is very painful. So either the instant death story isn't true, or if there was an agent that sped up the poisoning, what was it?

bonzen
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#2

Post by bonzen » 25 Jan 2004, 05:09

Twelve minutes? Death was almost instantaneous. Prefered method was raise a pistol to your temple, bite on the cyanide capsule, and pull the trigger.
That's why they found shards of glass in Hitler's teeth.


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#3

Post by nondescript handle » 25 Jan 2004, 07:30

What exactly did the capsules contained? Hydrocyanic acid or potassium cyanide?
Inhaling hydrocyanic acid means nearly instantaneous death, while swallowed potassium cyanide must be transformed into hydrocyanic acid by the gastric acid.

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Mark

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John H.
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#4

Post by John H. » 25 Jan 2004, 09:05

bonzen wrote:Twelve minutes? Death was almost instantaneous. Prefered method was raise a pistol to your temple, bite on the cyanide capsule, and pull the trigger.
That's why they found shards of glass in Hitler's teeth.
why would they do that?

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#5

Post by Alexander Zöller » 25 Jan 2004, 11:56

Because putting a bullet through your head is not a safe way to commit suicide, e.g. see the tragic example of Generaloberst Ludwig Beck. Biting on the capsule meant that even if you should have survived the shot to the head, the poison would have killed you about 10-15 seconds later.

Alexander

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#6

Post by varjag » 25 Jan 2004, 12:47

Keep winding this thread fella's - most literature refer to the 'Statseinheitsgift' (recommended Gov't Poison) as 'potassium cyanide' or in German 'Zyankali' - pills. It obviously was a yellowish liquid in a small glass ampule - usually delivered in a screw-top brass container, somewhat resembling a lipstick-holder. But - there were 'customised' versions like the 'black blob' in Himmlers mouth when he decided to face his maker. More recently, I understand that the Tamil Tigers also have issued cyanide suicide-pills for their operatives - perhaps the best answer to the initial question can be found in Sri Lanka?

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Jeremy Chan
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#7

Post by Jeremy Chan » 25 Jan 2004, 15:31

From the accounts I've read of Himmler's capture and death, It's seems that after biting down his cyanide capsule, he survived for 15 minutes after that. During that time, Sergeant Major Austin and a medical orderly had tried all means available then to removew the poison or keep him alive.

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#8

Post by bonzen » 25 Jan 2004, 17:48

nondescript handle wrote:What exactly did the capsules contained? Hydrocyanic acid or potassium cyanide?
Inhaling hydrocyanic acid means nearly instantaneous death, while swallowed potassium cyanide must be transformed into hydrocyanic acid by the gastric acid.
It was hydrocyanic acid......

hydrocyanic acid
Solution of hydrogen cyanide gas (HCN) in water. It is a colourless, highly poisonous, volatile liquid, smelling of bitter almonds.

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Nina van M.
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#9

Post by Nina van M. » 28 Jan 2004, 02:03

I'm kinda confused, guys...

I read that the person died a couple of seconds later after biting down the capsule, but I've heard and read contrary opinions too... (Himmler's and Rommel's case of death)
I guess it depended of concentration of cyanide in the capsule, what do you think? Does anybody know any further details on those exact cyanide capsules nazis have taken?

I can tell that a dose of 300 mg/m3 is immediately mortal, when a dose of 200 mg/m3 is mortal after approx. 10 minutes, a dose of about 130 mg/m3 is lethal after approx. 30 - 60 minutes... when a dose of 20-40 mg/m3 is almost without any symptoms.

Greetings to all of you, von k.

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#10

Post by bonzen » 28 Jan 2004, 03:46

Typically, an acute ingestion will have a dramatic, rapid onset immediately affecting the heart and causing sudden collapse. Or it can immediately affect the brain and cause a seizure or coma.

The skin of a cyanide-poisoned person can sometimes be unusually pink or cherry-red because oxygen will stay in the blood and not get into the cells. The person may also be breathing very fast and have either a very fast or very slow heartbeat. Sometimes the person’s breath can smell like bitter almonds, though this can be difficult to detect.
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So, without immediate medical attention the person will die. In Rommel's case he was effectively dead soon after ingestion. The officers with him most likely just checked his pulse until there was no sign of a heartbeat.

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Eden Zhang
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#11

Post by Eden Zhang » 28 Jan 2004, 08:35

varjag wrote:More recently, I understand that the Tamil Tigers also have issued cyanide suicide-pills for their operatives - perhaps the best answer to the initial question can be found in Sri Lanka?
Yep. Only they're not so shy about concealing it, they carry it on a necklace around their neck.

Fasionable and deadly.

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#12

Post by varjag » 28 Jan 2004, 12:38

Eden Zhang wrote:
varjag wrote:More recently, I understand that the Tamil Tigers also have issued cyanide suicide-pills for their operatives - perhaps the best answer to the initial question can be found in Sri Lanka?
Yep. Only they're not so shy about concealing it, they carry it on a necklace around their neck.

Fasionable and deadly.
Zhang - yes, I've heard that too. Have you actually seen one of those necklaces? Or do you know if they're a 'Woolworth version' taking 5-10-15 minutes to die, or the German 'instant' variety?

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#13

Post by varjag » 28 Jan 2004, 12:48

von Kluge's post interests me. I, too - have gathered that death or at least uncounscioness set in - within seconds of swalloving the compound and that death followed very shortly after. I cannot believe that whatever SS-laboratory that made these things (?) produced them in 'gradings' - surely they must all have been the most instant shortcut to heaven or hell that the user could choose.
I've posed this question before on Skalman - without response......
Where and by whom - were they made??????? They surely were made in their thousands - someone MUST know where the lab was and who the 'cooks' were?

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Matt Gibbs
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Capsules

#14

Post by Matt Gibbs » 28 Jan 2004, 13:45

Something on the 'modern' thought/use:
http://origin.sundayobserver.lk/2003/07/13/fea27.html

As to who made them for the nazis, who knows, probably a government or SS chemists department or something..? I have never seen a reference to this, other than I recall reading that perhaps Dr Stumpfegger had some in his dispensary stock of medications. I may be wrong but that sticks in my mind for some reason. He must have got them from somewhere..!

Regards

Matt Gibbs

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Nina van M.
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#15

Post by Nina van M. » 28 Jan 2004, 17:25

Well, isn't that interesting...

So many important personalities from the 3rd Reich chose cyanide, but yet we know so little about this deadly capsule. :o (high numbers of people who commited cyanide suicides - that seems weird to me, because suicide with pistol was at least in military circles known as a "honourable way of dying", when the case for cyanide is just the opposite)

I agree with you, VARJAG - good questions are the ones you've posted. I've been looking for some infos for quite a long time, but so far I haven't found nothing helpful.
How come that this is such a mystery? Are there any files in archives left and still waiting to be opened?

Salute, von k.

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