no problem at all, you are welcome... one interesting fact thet surfaced in the SSL II is that the swiss flak crews took down allied aircraft more than once...
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
Fate of Crashed Allied Aircraft
@ Durand
no problem at all, you are welcome... one interesting fact thet surfaced in the SSL II is that the swiss flak crews took down allied aircraft more than once...
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
no problem at all, you are welcome... one interesting fact thet surfaced in the SSL II is that the swiss flak crews took down allied aircraft more than once...
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
Last edited by Xavier on 15 Dec 2005, 21:35, edited 1 time in total.
There is a very good Brittish documentary series called "Meet the Ancestors" which shows on SBS here.
Last night it dealt with Billy Drake of No 1 Squadron [RAF] and how his Hurricane was dug up from a French field 60 years after it had crashed.
It also refers at length to a book on the subject [ sorry - no details remembered by me]
Certainly worth a look by anyone researching this subject.
Max
Last night it dealt with Billy Drake of No 1 Squadron [RAF] and how his Hurricane was dug up from a French field 60 years after it had crashed.
It also refers at length to a book on the subject [ sorry - no details remembered by me]
Certainly worth a look by anyone researching this subject.
Max
Hallo Durand!
sorry, but somehow I missed your question, I have the book at home and you should have some data on your request within 2 days..
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
sorry, but somehow I missed your question, I have the book at home and you should have some data on your request within 2 days..
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
Last edited by Xavier on 10 Aug 2004, 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
anecdote
There's an old anecdote:. A U.S. bomber goes offf course an flies over Swiss territory.
The Swiss aircommand signals: U.S. Bomber you are trespassing over Swiss territory.
The U.S. Captain signals back: I know.
Swiss: If you don't change your course we will have to take you down.
Captain: I know.
Swiss: We will start firing with heavy Ack Ack .
Captain: I know.
Swiss: We commence firing now !.
Captain: You are missing us by a mile.
Swiss: We know.
Just thought to lighten the subject a little.
HN.
The Swiss aircommand signals: U.S. Bomber you are trespassing over Swiss territory.
The U.S. Captain signals back: I know.
Swiss: If you don't change your course we will have to take you down.
Captain: I know.
Swiss: We will start firing with heavy Ack Ack .
Captain: I know.
Swiss: We commence firing now !.
Captain: You are missing us by a mile.
Swiss: We know.
Just thought to lighten the subject a little.
HN.
@HaEn,
nice joke, but after some border incident described below, american planes were no longer safe over swiss airspace.:
I Believe this is the first american aircraft directly shot down by swiss flak:
oct 1 1943
B17F-85-bo named "sugarfoot", from the 99th bomber group, based at ouduna, tunisia.
Mission target: messerschmit factory at Ausburg , together with the b-17’s of the 12th air force
3 survivors
Also shot down by swiss flak, in the same date, was B-17F-30-VE crashed at Alvaneu, 2 survivors.
Both shot down by flak det. 21 under the command of Col G.F.Ruegg based at Ragaz-Buell, only 3 miles from the swiss-austrian border.
April's fool day 1944 was a bad day for the Swiss-us relations as, liberators of the 392nd and 44th bomb group mistakenly bombed Schaffhausen the only city inside swiss territory, north of the rhine river and killed some forty civilians.
The next time american bombers sought refugee in switzerland, some aircraft were deliberately shot up by swiss AA units.
On april 13, 1944,
Raid on Aubsburg again
the first aircraft shot down was a B-17G-35-Bo of the 96th bomb group, which had a new “Cheyenne” tail turret. The swiss inspected closely the plane remains to study it and develop better angles of attack for the swiss pilots against this new turret.
On the same date swiss fighters shot down b.17G-5-BO of the 447th bomb group, pilotless, as the crew bailed out over dubednorf (germany) and the plane continued solo thru Rapperswill in switzerland.
Same date, damaged by swiss accurate flak near Zurich, on its way to land was B-24H-1-DT of the 453 bomb group, after landing at Dubendorf, the swiss coutned 10 holes in the wings and fuselage.
Same date, B-17-G-35-BO landed at Dubendorf only 3 minutes after the aircraft mentioned above, , as this bomber crossed the swiss border, Flak fire hit the plane over the Winterhur area, over 30 holes found in the aircraft upon landing.
And so on for every mission........
On 24 april 1944 Swiss fighters took down B-17G-50_bo over Dubenford, for fear the aircraft would try to escape, after bailing out most of the crew.. the bomber fell in lake Greifensee
Seems after the bombing incident in Schaffhausen, Swiss attitude toward allied planes hardened.
There is also the instance of a P-51 a posee of mustangs shooting down inside swiss airspace 2 swiss bf109 figthers that they mistook for german ones, (how can you mix a red/white cross with the balkencross?)
I think Swiss AA flak managed , form 1944 on to take down about a dozen aircraft in total, plus a lot that were damaged beyond repair and managed to crashland at Dubendorf.
Best regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
nice joke, but after some border incident described below, american planes were no longer safe over swiss airspace.:
I Believe this is the first american aircraft directly shot down by swiss flak:
oct 1 1943
B17F-85-bo named "sugarfoot", from the 99th bomber group, based at ouduna, tunisia.
Mission target: messerschmit factory at Ausburg , together with the b-17’s of the 12th air force
3 survivors
Also shot down by swiss flak, in the same date, was B-17F-30-VE crashed at Alvaneu, 2 survivors.
Both shot down by flak det. 21 under the command of Col G.F.Ruegg based at Ragaz-Buell, only 3 miles from the swiss-austrian border.
April's fool day 1944 was a bad day for the Swiss-us relations as, liberators of the 392nd and 44th bomb group mistakenly bombed Schaffhausen the only city inside swiss territory, north of the rhine river and killed some forty civilians.
The next time american bombers sought refugee in switzerland, some aircraft were deliberately shot up by swiss AA units.
On april 13, 1944,
Raid on Aubsburg again
the first aircraft shot down was a B-17G-35-Bo of the 96th bomb group, which had a new “Cheyenne” tail turret. The swiss inspected closely the plane remains to study it and develop better angles of attack for the swiss pilots against this new turret.
On the same date swiss fighters shot down b.17G-5-BO of the 447th bomb group, pilotless, as the crew bailed out over dubednorf (germany) and the plane continued solo thru Rapperswill in switzerland.
Same date, damaged by swiss accurate flak near Zurich, on its way to land was B-24H-1-DT of the 453 bomb group, after landing at Dubendorf, the swiss coutned 10 holes in the wings and fuselage.
Same date, B-17-G-35-BO landed at Dubendorf only 3 minutes after the aircraft mentioned above, , as this bomber crossed the swiss border, Flak fire hit the plane over the Winterhur area, over 30 holes found in the aircraft upon landing.
And so on for every mission........
On 24 april 1944 Swiss fighters took down B-17G-50_bo over Dubenford, for fear the aircraft would try to escape, after bailing out most of the crew.. the bomber fell in lake Greifensee
Seems after the bombing incident in Schaffhausen, Swiss attitude toward allied planes hardened.
There is also the instance of a P-51 a posee of mustangs shooting down inside swiss airspace 2 swiss bf109 figthers that they mistook for german ones, (how can you mix a red/white cross with the balkencross?)
I think Swiss AA flak managed , form 1944 on to take down about a dozen aircraft in total, plus a lot that were damaged beyond repair and managed to crashland at Dubendorf.
Best regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
-
Kurt_Steiner
- Member
- Posts: 3980
- Joined: 14 Feb 2004, 14:52
- Location: Barcelona, Catalunya
Some info about captured planes by the Luftwaffe can be found at
http://p069.ezboard.com/bluftwaffeexperten71774
Best regards
http://p069.ezboard.com/bluftwaffeexperten71774
Best regards
somewhat unrelated, fate of german aircraft in Denmark after the surrender.... (what a shame, about 1146 aircraft destroyed..):
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexper ... ID=6.topic
ADDENDUM: Forgot to add in my previous post, the books SSL-II does not give figures for AXIS shot down aircraft, I guess there were not many.
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexper ... ID=6.topic
ADDENDUM: Forgot to add in my previous post, the books SSL-II does not give figures for AXIS shot down aircraft, I guess there were not many.
regards
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
oustanding photo album of a soldier who belonged to an early Berge-bataillone in france
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT (will save the pics later)
the pictures depict very well the primitive conditions described earlier in this post in which they worked (open fields, mostly hard backbreaking labor)
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT (will save the pics later)
the pictures depict very well the primitive conditions described earlier in this post in which they worked (open fields, mostly hard backbreaking labor)
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
)the following interesting info was posted by Larry D. on the related german Luftwaffe engineers thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
@ Durand:Thanks for the comments !!Third photo from the top:
The units FpN is clearly shown on the salvaging truck's fender: L 37125. That's Fliegerhorstkommandantur E 4/XVII, originally from Wien-Schwechat. From summer 1940 to fall 1942 is was in charge of the airfield at Nantes - Chateau Bougon. That means its radius of crash site salvage and recover work would have been within 80 kilometers, give or take.
FWIW,
--Larry
Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer
Re: Fate of Crashed Allied Aircraft
@ Durand, a bit of info surfaced!!!:
source http://www.airwarweb.net/interned_german.php
German Aircraft and crew
interned in Switzerland during WW2
Date = yy-mm-dd
C = Crashed
L = Landed
INT = Interned
KIA = Killed in Action
? = Fate unknown
Date Location C/L Type Fate Crew
1940
40-??-?? Zeithain nr. Riesa EL He 70 ? INT, code'WL-OBWH'
Any information available?
see picture
40-04-21 Basel/Birsfelden L Do 17Z 4 INT
40-05-16 Kemletten C He 111P 4 INT
40-06-01 Lignieres C He 111H 5 KIA
40-06-01 Oltingen C He 111 ?
40-06-02 Ursins b. Yverdon C He 111P 4 INT + 1 KIA, of KG55
40-06-08 Triengen b.Aarau C Bf 110 2 KIA
40-06-08 Nunningen L Bf 110 2 INT
40-09-11 Frauenfeld L Go 145A 1 INT
40-11-13 Willerzell C Do 17Z ?
40-11-22 Jüppen b.Döttingen L Bü 131B 1 INT
1941
41-03-18 Klingnau L Go 145A 1 INT
41-07-24 Dübendorf L Ju W34 4 INT
41-08-10 Biel/Bözingen L Fw 58B 2 INT
41-09-05 Basel/Birsfelden L Go 145A 1 INT
41-11-30 Basel/Birsfelden L Go 145A 1 INT
1942
42-03-25 Basel/Birsfelden L Ju W34 3 INT. aircraft code 'B'
42-07-25 Bern/Belpmoos L Bf 109F 1 INT
42-07-25 Bern/Belpmoos L Bf 109F 1 INT
1943
43-02-12 Bière L Go 145A 1 INT
43-03-05 Basel/Birsfelden L Bü 131A 1 INT
43-03-19 Samaden L Fi 156C 2 INT
43-03-19 Samaden L Fi 156C 2 INT
43-05-15 Basel/Birsfelden L Kl 35B 1 INT
43-10-21 Dübendorf L Ju 88C 4 INT, 'H' of JG54
1944
44-01-01 Moutier C Fiat RS14 2 KIA
44-02-05 Singen C Do 215 ?
44-02-06 Pruntrut CL Bf 110G,'VQ+KL' 2 INT
Due to snowstorm and lack of fuel
44-02-14 Andelfingen C Fiat CR42 1 INT
Due to heavy snowstorm
44-03-15 Dübendorf L Bf 110G 2 INT
44-03-29 Samaden L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-04-04 Bonfol b. Pruntrut L Bü 181 1 INT
44-04-26 Wienacht/St.Gallen C Ju 188 ?
44-04-28 Dübendorf L Bf 110G-4/R7 3 INT. of III./NJG 6. 'C9+EN'
pilot: Hptm. Johnen.
Plane was destroyed by the Swiss
in return the Germans delivered
12 new Bf109G's.
44-05-02 Basel/Birsfelden L Do 217N 3 INT
44-06-06 Baulmes b. Yverdon C Ju 52 5 KIA
44-06-14 Basel/Birsfelden L Bü 131 1 INT
44-07-16 Bern/Beundenfeld L Avia Fl 3 1 INT
44-07-19 Jaunpass C Bf 110 ?
44-07-27 Locarno L Caproni 148 2 INT
44-08-17 Benken/BL L Bü 181 1 INT
44-08-20 Bern L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-08-20 Bern L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-10-26 Ronwill/St. Gallen L Bü 181 1 INT
44-12-17 Affeltrangen L Bf 109G 1 INT
1945
45-03-26 Werthenstein C Bf 109G 1 INT
45-04-12 Bürglen/TG L Bü 181C 1 INT
45-04-18 Dübendorf L Bü 181 2 INT
45-04-20 Payerne L Bf 108B 3 INT
45-04-25 Dübendorf L Me 262A 1 INT
45-04-26 Dübendorf L Fw 44F 1 INT
45-04-26 Oberriet L Bü 181 1 INT
45-04-26 Oberriet L Bü 181 2 INT
45-04-27 Emmen L Bf 108D 4 INT
45-04-27 Dübendorf L Si 204D 4 INT
45-04-30 Dübendorf L Ju 88G 6 INT
45-05-07 Belp L Si 204D, 'DL-NT' 5 INT, aircraft was of the Mufti of
Jerusalem. The Mufti used the a/c
to flee to Switzerland.
45-05-08 Chur L Fi 156C 3 INT
Xavier
Der Autodidakt
source http://www.airwarweb.net/interned_german.php
German Aircraft and crew
interned in Switzerland during WW2
Date = yy-mm-dd
C = Crashed
L = Landed
INT = Interned
KIA = Killed in Action
? = Fate unknown
Date Location C/L Type Fate Crew
1940
40-??-?? Zeithain nr. Riesa EL He 70 ? INT, code'WL-OBWH'
Any information available?
see picture
40-04-21 Basel/Birsfelden L Do 17Z 4 INT
40-05-16 Kemletten C He 111P 4 INT
40-06-01 Lignieres C He 111H 5 KIA
40-06-01 Oltingen C He 111 ?
40-06-02 Ursins b. Yverdon C He 111P 4 INT + 1 KIA, of KG55
40-06-08 Triengen b.Aarau C Bf 110 2 KIA
40-06-08 Nunningen L Bf 110 2 INT
40-09-11 Frauenfeld L Go 145A 1 INT
40-11-13 Willerzell C Do 17Z ?
40-11-22 Jüppen b.Döttingen L Bü 131B 1 INT
1941
41-03-18 Klingnau L Go 145A 1 INT
41-07-24 Dübendorf L Ju W34 4 INT
41-08-10 Biel/Bözingen L Fw 58B 2 INT
41-09-05 Basel/Birsfelden L Go 145A 1 INT
41-11-30 Basel/Birsfelden L Go 145A 1 INT
1942
42-03-25 Basel/Birsfelden L Ju W34 3 INT. aircraft code 'B'
42-07-25 Bern/Belpmoos L Bf 109F 1 INT
42-07-25 Bern/Belpmoos L Bf 109F 1 INT
1943
43-02-12 Bière L Go 145A 1 INT
43-03-05 Basel/Birsfelden L Bü 131A 1 INT
43-03-19 Samaden L Fi 156C 2 INT
43-03-19 Samaden L Fi 156C 2 INT
43-05-15 Basel/Birsfelden L Kl 35B 1 INT
43-10-21 Dübendorf L Ju 88C 4 INT, 'H' of JG54
1944
44-01-01 Moutier C Fiat RS14 2 KIA
44-02-05 Singen C Do 215 ?
44-02-06 Pruntrut CL Bf 110G,'VQ+KL' 2 INT
Due to snowstorm and lack of fuel
44-02-14 Andelfingen C Fiat CR42 1 INT
Due to heavy snowstorm
44-03-15 Dübendorf L Bf 110G 2 INT
44-03-29 Samaden L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-04-04 Bonfol b. Pruntrut L Bü 181 1 INT
44-04-26 Wienacht/St.Gallen C Ju 188 ?
44-04-28 Dübendorf L Bf 110G-4/R7 3 INT. of III./NJG 6. 'C9+EN'
pilot: Hptm. Johnen.
Plane was destroyed by the Swiss
in return the Germans delivered
12 new Bf109G's.
44-05-02 Basel/Birsfelden L Do 217N 3 INT
44-06-06 Baulmes b. Yverdon C Ju 52 5 KIA
44-06-14 Basel/Birsfelden L Bü 131 1 INT
44-07-16 Bern/Beundenfeld L Avia Fl 3 1 INT
44-07-19 Jaunpass C Bf 110 ?
44-07-27 Locarno L Caproni 148 2 INT
44-08-17 Benken/BL L Bü 181 1 INT
44-08-20 Bern L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-08-20 Bern L Bf 109G 1 INT
44-10-26 Ronwill/St. Gallen L Bü 181 1 INT
44-12-17 Affeltrangen L Bf 109G 1 INT
1945
45-03-26 Werthenstein C Bf 109G 1 INT
45-04-12 Bürglen/TG L Bü 181C 1 INT
45-04-18 Dübendorf L Bü 181 2 INT
45-04-20 Payerne L Bf 108B 3 INT
45-04-25 Dübendorf L Me 262A 1 INT
45-04-26 Dübendorf L Fw 44F 1 INT
45-04-26 Oberriet L Bü 181 1 INT
45-04-26 Oberriet L Bü 181 2 INT
45-04-27 Emmen L Bf 108D 4 INT
45-04-27 Dübendorf L Si 204D 4 INT
45-04-30 Dübendorf L Ju 88G 6 INT
45-05-07 Belp L Si 204D, 'DL-NT' 5 INT, aircraft was of the Mufti of
Jerusalem. The Mufti used the a/c
to flee to Switzerland.
45-05-08 Chur L Fi 156C 3 INT
Xavier
Der Autodidakt
Re: Fate of Crashed Allied Aircraft
Xavier,
Just reading this thread now, since it came up. Of course that photo album has long disappeared from Ebay, but you mentioned back then that you saved the pics? Did you? Any chance of them getting posted?
John
Just reading this thread now, since it came up. Of course that photo album has long disappeared from Ebay, but you mentioned back then that you saved the pics? Did you? Any chance of them getting posted?
John
-
aaronbelkin
- New member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 09:26
Re: Fate of Crashed Allied Aircraft
My uncle perished on October 1, 1943, when his B-17 crashed near Alvaneu, Switzerland. I have recently obtained his Missing Air Crew Report from U.S. Air Force archives, and the records indicate that the plane was probably shot down by German fighter planes. A 2004 posting by Xavier on AHF, however, indicates that the plane was shot down by Swiss anti-aircraft. I am interested in resolving the discrepancy. Xavier, why do you believe the plane was shot down by the Swiss? Thanks for any information you can provide.
Re: Fate of Crashed Allied Aircraft
A small bit: the crew of a downed american plane was responsible for destroying the Norden bombsight mounted on it.