Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

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Sttig
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Martin Bormann

Post by Sttig » 14 Sep 2002 22:42

What happened to Martin Bormann is a very interesting question.Today I watched a TV program about the nazi war criminals and they interviewed an Englishman who has been searching for war criminals.He claimed that on one of his trips to Switzerland while he was searching for other war criminals he found a big house in the Alps where was believed that several nazi generals where hiding.After some days he and his partner saw a man who looked like Bormann.That man, who was believed to be Bormann, went inside a car.The Englishman followed him and contacted his headquarters.When he asked whether he should arrest him they answered him not to do anything to Bormann, and just to follow him.After some hours of driving Bormann reached a small airport in the Alps.When he got off the car the Englishman recognized him perfectly but could not do anything to him because of the orders he had received.

And another story I read in a book.The author believes that Bormann was the woodpecker form the Lucy ring.When the Red army invaded Berlin they got him back to Moscow.And there Stalin killed him.The first story sounds more reasonable to me.

P.S The author is Colin Forbes and the book is The leader and the damned (very interesting book, must read)

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Post by Caldric » 14 Sep 2002 22:48

Borman a Soviet spy. Is there any good proof of this? We know Soviets knew things that could only come from the highest parts of the Command.

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HJ Division Grenadier
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Post by HJ Division Grenadier » 14 Sep 2002 23:23

Bormans remains were found in Berlin I believe not too long ago.
Im a bit patchy on this, but Im sure someone else can fill in all the details.

Sttig
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Post by Sttig » 14 Sep 2002 23:24

The author of the book claimed he had read an article in a soviet paper that was later banned by their government.The article was an interview with a woman who was a secretary of Leventri Beria, chief of NKVD.In the interview she had said that NKVD officers brought Bormann in Russia for routine interrogation.After that they killed him so that Stalin could take all the glory as the military genius who defeated the Germans.He killed everyone who knew of his plans except Beria and his secretary.If you're interested I'll find the name of the newspaper and the name of Beria's secretary.

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Edwin Meinsma
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Post by Edwin Meinsma » 15 Sep 2002 10:27

Bormanns remains were found under, I believe a railwaybridge, in Berlin 1972. On the request of the family genetic tests were carried out in the late nineties. These tests proved the remains were Martin Bormanns.

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Edwn Meinsma

Timo
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Post by Timo » 15 Sep 2002 11:01

That is correct Edwin. DNA-tests proved conclusively that it was his body and that he died in 1945 during the Berlin Battles.

In his book Die Rote Kapelle author Gilles Perrault gives a similar story, claiming that both Bormann and Gestapo Müller worked for Soviet intelligence.

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Edwin Meinsma
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Post by Edwin Meinsma » 15 Sep 2002 11:13

Bormanns exact rol remains a mystery. Assuming that he was a Soviet 'agent' why did he try to leave Berlin (which was kind of dangerous) ?

What do sources say on this?

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Edwin Meinsma

Timo
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Post by Timo » 15 Sep 2002 11:16

I am not sure if any common Soviet soldier in the Berlin battle would care to save his live if a man in a bigshot nazi costume would tell him he's a spy and should be spared. Perhaps this is even what happened :roll:

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Edwin Meinsma
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Post by Edwin Meinsma » 15 Sep 2002 11:28

That certainly is a credible explanation Timo. The Soviet-Russian soldiers in these circumstances could kill anybody. :oops:

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Edwin Meinsma

Sttig
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Post by Sttig » 15 Sep 2002 14:27

His remains could have been put there later (they were found in '72).If all the officers received orders to catch Bormann alive they would have done it.And Bormann never wore an uniform.I don't think he was killed in the battle of Berlin, because that englishman, I told you about, saw him after the battle.

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Matt Gibbs
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Bormann's death and...

Post by Matt Gibbs » 15 Sep 2002 15:51

The Escape Route of Martin Bormann
May 1-2, 1945


Telegram sent from The Fuehrerbunker at 15:15 on May 1, 1945:
GRAND ADMIRAL DOENITZ --Most Secret -- Urgent -- offizier onlyThe Fuehrer died yesterday at 15:30 hours. Testament of April 29th appoints you as Reich President, Reich Minister Dr. Goebbels as Reich Chancellor, Reichsleiter Bormann as Party Minister, Reich Minister Seyss-Inquart as Foreign Minister. By order of the Fuehrer, the Testament has been sent out of Berlin to you, to Field-Marshal Schoerner, and for preservation and publication. Reichsleiter Bormann intends to go to you today and to inform you of the situation. Time and form of announcement to the Press and to the troops is left to you. Confirm receipt. -- GOEBBELS.

In the bunker of the New Chancellery, a miscellaneous group of women, soldiers, party officials, and hangers-on gathered in preparation for a mass escape. Nominally under the command of Martin Bormann, they planned to follow tunnels from the chancellery to the subway line, and then follow the subway line north, under the Freidrichstrasse, to the Friedrichstrasse station a few hundred yards south of the river Spree. At that point they would surface, link up with what was left of Brigadefuehrer Mohnke's battle group, and attempt to force their way across the Weidendammer Bridge.Then they would proceed north-west, through the Russian lines, and save themselves as best they could.

At 23:00 hours the mass escape began. Moving in small groups, they proceeded underground, as planned, to the Friedrichstrasse station. Here they emerged to find the ruins of Berlin in flames. The first group managed to cross the river Spree by an iron footbridge that ran parallel to the Weidendammer Bridge. The remaining groups likewise emerged at the Friedrichstrasse Station, but there became confused and disoriented. They made their way north along the riedrichstrasse to the Weidendammer Bridge, where they found their way blocked, at the bridge's north end, by an anti-tank barrier and heavy Russian fire.

They next withdrew to the south end of the bridge, they were soon joined by a few German tanks. Gathering about the tanks, they again pressed forward. Bormann, Artur Axmann, Ludwig Stumpfegger and others followed the lead tanks as far as the Ziegelstrasse. There a panzerfaust struck the lead tank. The violent explosion stunned Bormann and Stumpfegger, and wounded Axmann. All retreated to the Weidendammer Bridge. Now it was every man for himself.

Bormann, Stumpfegger, Axmann, and others followed the railway line to the Lehrter Station. There Bormann and Stumpfegger decided to follow the Invalideinstrasse eastwards. Axmann elected to go west, but encountered a Russian patrol and returned on the path Bormann and Stumpfegger had taken. He soon found them.

Behind the bridge where the Invalidienstrasse crossed the railway they lay on their backs, the moonlight on their faces. Both were dead. Axmann could see no signs of an explosion, and assumed that they had been shot in the back. He continued on his way, escaping from Berlin and spending the next six months hiding out with the Hitler Youth in the Bavarian Alps, where he was eventually captured.

Late in 1945, British Intelligence appointed Mr. Roper to investigate the evidence surrounding the death of Hitler. His book followed in 1946 as a result of this investigation, and was updated by him over the years as new evidence emerged.
Roper left the issue of Bormann's death open in early editions of the work, because evidence of Bormann's death rested solely on the testimony of Artur Axmann. Although Axmann's testimony regarding other events was truthful so far as it could be independently verified, Roper realized that Axmann might be giving false evidence to protect Bormann from further search.

In December, 1972, during construction near the Lehrter Station (near to where Bormann's diary had been found in a discarded leather jacket in 1945 a man who claimed to have been forced by the Russians to bury Bormann and Stumpfegger had identified the supposed grave. The man knew the body had been that of Bormann because of the pocketbook found upon the body by the man’s boss. Von Lang verified this story. The man led Von Lang and Richter to the spot where the bodies had lain before he had moved them to the burial site. It was the exact spot where Axmann had testified to having last seen them. Nevertheless, the search revealed nothing. Seven years later the city of Berlin was excavating the area near the suspected grave. Von Lang attended and two bodies were discovered and were identified as those of Bormann and Stumpfegger. They were found thirty-six feet away from the site of the previous search. The dental records recreated from memory by Dr. Hugo Blaschke, in 1945, identified the bodies. A press conference in West Germany announced the discovery of the remains. Since the dental records were recreated from memory their authenticity was questionable.But the forensic identification was validated by Dr. Reidar F. Sognnaes, a celebrated U.S. expert in such matters. (Reidar F. Sognnaes, "Dental Evidence in the Postmortem Identification of Adolf Hitler, Eva Braun and Martin Bormann", in Legal Medicine Annual, 1976.) This new evidence caused Roper to write in the 1978 edition of The Last Days of Hitler that "...in view of new evidence which has recently been found, I believe that it [the question of Bormann's death] can now be closed."

As stated in the Final Report of the Frankfurt State Prosecution office under File Index No. Js 11/61 (GStA Ffm.) in "Criminal Action against Martin Bormann on Charge of Murder", dated April 4, 1973:
XI. Result
Although nature has placed limits on human powers of recognition (BGHZ Vol. 36, pp. 379-393-NJW 1962, 1505), it is proved with certainty that the two skeletons found on the Ulap fairgrounds in Berlin on December 7 and 8, 1972, are identical with the accused Martin Bormann and Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger.
The accused and Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger died in Berlin in the early hours of the morning of May 2, 1945 -- sometime between 1:30 and 2:30 A.M.
XII. Further Measures
1. The search for Martin Bormann is officially terminated.

But rumours persisted that Bormann had fled the country for South America before the end of the Second World War. The German authorities ordered genetic tests after a British book asserted that Bormann had been spirited away by British commandos after the war to help them track down looted Nazi gold. An 83-year-old relative of Bormann supplied the samples for the DNA comparison. Tests were completed and the announcement made on 3rd May 1998. the cremated remains of the body have been ‘buried’ at sea in the baltic, outside German territorial waters for families fears a grave site might become some kind of shrine.

sources include the BBC news website and Welt am Sonntag newspaper amongst numerous other online sources available. I thought it would be useful to collate the information here...

Regards

Matt Gibbs

Timo
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Post by Timo » 15 Sep 2002 17:11

Sttig wrote:His remains could have been put there later (they were found in '72).If all the officers received orders to catch Bormann alive they would have done it.And Bormann never wore an uniform.I don't think he was killed in the battle of Berlin, because that englishman, I told you about, saw him after the battle.
Elvis Presley is also still alive today. An Englishman confirmed he works in a local minimart in Sheffield.

Timo
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Post by Timo » 15 Sep 2002 17:12

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Last edited by Timo on 15 Sep 2002 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

Timo
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Post by Timo » 15 Sep 2002 17:14

Sttig wrote:His remains could have been put there later (they were found in '72).If all the officers received orders to catch Bormann alive they would have done it.And Bormann never wore an uniform.I don't think he was killed in the battle of Berlin, because that englishman, I told you about, saw him after the battle.
Elvis Presley is also still alive today. An Englishman confirmed he works in a local minimart in Sheffield.

He fled out of the country they say, yet somebody managed to smuggle his remains back into the country and burry him in Berlin under a road to be found almost 30 years later? :roll:

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 15 Sep 2002 18:04

I just find this whole story so fishy. I mean there you have Bormann trying to flee Berlin at the same time with thousands of others, thousands are killed trying to breach the Soviet line, somehow Bormann gets killed and buried with enough rubble as to make his discovery till 1972 viable. I mean, what are the chances here of finding Bormann´s remains among all others? Smells like fabrication if you ask me. How many skeletons are being found each day in Berlin and how many get DNA testings done to match to some lost relative? C´mon

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