Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Neutrality,

What "cushy relationship with Peron"?

There is no evidence that they ever met, or even communicated.

Sid

[Neutrality]

Obviously I can't conclusively say anything other than what our investigations unearth via the world wide web and literature! Here's some text from a fascinating article I have linked below.

"This high ranking, internationally decorated, military and federal police commissioner, had been the ADC to 7 Argentine presidents, a close personal friend of Chilean President Pinochet and Eva peron and was the chief of the tough Argentine Federal secret police. He was also prominently involved in the dismantling of the Argentine narcotics trafficking in the 1990’s.

His taped testimony given to Goldeneye Films in 2010, (highly edited clips on YouTube) was on the premise that it could only be revealed after his death to protect his family and that he met Martin Bormann frequently in Buenos Aires in late 1952 and till the end of 1953. He also testifies that on the instructions of Peron, he organised the personal security for Bormann and escorted him to various meetings in Argentina.

Commissioner Colotto also stated that Martin Bormann had been installed in a famous luxury hotel in Buenos Aires throughout 1953, which was owned by Germans. The ADC testifies that he was sent on a weekly basis to collect the Bormann bill from the concierge, to take directly to Peron, who paid the bill from his personal accounts."

Martin Bormann - A New Body of Evidence?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/martin-b ... e-de-mello

[Neutrality]

Another interesting piece. Who knows if anything like this is even verifiable. The extensive offloading of finances was well known to the intelligence agencies. Why didn't they interfere?


http://www.animalfarm.org/mb/17i.shtml

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi neutrality,

This article is only fascinating for the those studying conspiracy theory, not from a historical point of view.

One of the classic conspiracy theorist gatekeeper ploys is dead sources, like this Colotto

One can place absolutely no faith in this source because, very conveniently, you cannot interogate him. Nor are any alternative avenues of checking available from the information given.

It is unlikely that he would have been an intimate of both Peron and Pinochet. Peron was persona non grata in Chile after a spy network he had set up while a military attache there in the mid 1930s was exposed shortly after he left.

Besides, why would revealing this only after his death protect his family? If he really wanted to protect his family he would have said nothing at all.

Very conveniently, the source is dead and his supposed testimony is now in the hands of a "gatekeeper" who stands to profit from the association.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Bormann died. Hans Baur Hitlers personal pilot told me the story when I met him. Both he and Bormann as well as a few others did try to escape the Russians by moving beneath the city through the tunnels to the railway station They did not make it. Baur was in front, Bormann behind him. Shelling caused the men to be wounded and to collapse. Bormann went one way Baur and two others the other way. Baur told me Bormann was killed because when he looked back they were lying on the ground probably dead. Baur was taken prisoner and spent 10 years in Soviet captivity. Bauer told me this in 1990 three years before his death. In 1998 Remains uncovered during an excavation near the railroad station were conclusively identified as Bormann's The testing was led by Wolfgang Eisenmenger, Professor of Forensic Science at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich.Baur was right, Bormann had been dead all those years. I still have Baurs letters. He also told me the fate of Hitler as well.

No post war testimony...Baur's or Axmann's explain away the fact that Bormann's skeleton uncovered later near that spot, was covered in red clay. Local Berlin soil is sandy. That kind of red clay soil is to be found in places like Paraguay and parts of the Soviet Union.

It is quite possible that Bormann's remains were reburied in Berlin after his death by those same intelligence agencies who were privy to his escape and post war activities.

It is also to be noted that his supposed remains were not accepted by his kin. Gitta Sereny's interviews with the eldest son Martin Jr. ( Ref:The German Trauma, 2000; Penguin, 2001, p306), reveal that his father had once broken his collarbone (riding accident 1939)and there was no such old injury visible on the skeleton.

That apart, what about the sticky red clay?

Moreover your version of what Baur said contradicts what Axmann said. According to you, Baur claims that artillery shelling injured Borman ("..Shelling caused the men to be wounded and to collapse...") but Axmann said that Bormann's and Stumpfegger's bodies lay peacefully without any visible injuries at all.

To be noted that Kempka's version about Bormann buying it at the Weidendammer bridge is another story again ! Nobody now believes Kempka's version to be sure..but it just shows different folks were saying different things about that cataclysmic night of 1-2 May 45. Its not just about Bormann, these confusing versions are available from different escapees about other bunker personalities too.

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Sandeep,

What about "sticky red clay"?

I used to live in south Devon. We had red clay from the red Devon Sandstone there as well.

Essentially there is no substantive trace of Bormann outside Berlin after 1945.

Furthermore, whether he lived or died is pretty much an historical irrelevance because he never resurfaced either way. He was simply Hitler's political gatekeeper and had no power base of his own. When Hitler died, Bormann's significance died with him.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sid..

Berlin doesn't have red clay soil. So a corpse buried in Berlin and making permanent residence underground won't get covered in red clay soil. That surely stands to reason?

Right now we are not discussing the significance or practical importance of Bormann surviving WWII. We are simply examining whether there is a watertight case to show that he fell on the night of 1-2 May '45 near the Lehrter Bahnhof.
As things stand there are substantial doubts. Whether that's of any material consequence or not is not the contention here certainly?

But yes, if he survived and some one went to the elaborate extent of reburying his body in Berlin after 25 odd years then that does throw up interesting questions about the identity of those people and their agenda !

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi sandeep,

There is no need for a water tight case. Martin Bormann became a historical irrelevance the moment Hitler died and has never resurfaced. If he wasn't dead, he might as well have been.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Mark Costa]

This discussion is absolutely crazy.

FIRST : The red clay issue is a fantasy. This claim has been debunked on several occasions.

SECOND: Forensics determined that the body found in Berlin was of a 45 year old man -- Bormann was 45 in 1945 !! So unless he found the Fountain of Youth in South America he died in 1945. ANYONE WANT TO EXPLAIN THIS ONE !!!!

THIRD : Did the people who supposedly "rebury" Bormann also have Dr. Stumpfegger's body on ice !!! Remember Dr. Stumpfegger's body was also found and his body too never aged !!

FOURTH: DNA proved it was Bormann beyond any doubt -- therefore see again the SECOND listing above. Someone mentions the collarbone issue -- read the report the broken collar bone is indeed in the report.

All of this is just wishful thinking by those that do not study the real facts of the case. Bormann died in 1945 in Berlin and buried where postal workers said they buried the bodies in 1945. END OF STORY !

Mark Costa

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Now that we CRAZY folks have been suitably chastised, I would still like to know the following:

Where and how has the red clay theory been debunked? Any references?

Where does it say that the remains were of a 45 year old man...references?

The rest of the subjective diatribe I am ignoring.

BTW Those interested can find this link interesting:

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/goldeney ... dence/amp/

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi sandeep,

For the "red clay" theory to be debunked, it first has to be put forward in a coherent and checkable manner. Perhaps you would care to do so?

Cheers,

Sid.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sid..

The Bormann story has to be examined beyond these snap shot superficialities and seen in totality. From the tone and tenor of the posts of this thread of late, it does not appear that we are going into the issues in depth.

The red clay part is only one of the issues. Its about time that we look at this holistically from all angles, in the light of the known facts. And yes..I will come back to the red clay issue.. I had raised it after all !

http://bell.greyfalcon.us/Bormann.htm

I would urge those interested to go through this piece in details, for the relevant Bormann part. BTW this piece is anything but Neo-Nazi etc... as would be obvious if you go through it.

http://ww2gravestone.com/sites/default/files/uploads/bormann%20botten_0.jpg

bormann botten_0.jpg (31.96 KiB) Viewed 2481 times

Bormann's remains..

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Sandeep,

Do I take it from your reply that you are not in a position to put the "red clay" theory forward "in a coherent and checkable manner"?

If so, I would suggest we are absolved from even addressing it.

Please remember, you raised the "red clay" issue. It is therefore up to you to try to substantiate it.

If you cannot, it falls by default and requires no further input here from anyone else.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Is the greyfalcon site you link us to in your last post the same greyfalcon site specialzing in flying saucers and UFOs?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Sid.. how have you come to the conclusion that I have abandoned the red clay issue?

Can we not apply our minds and judgments to the contents of this site without preconceptions? Can we discuss the points raised here on the Bormann issue just on merit?

Cheers
Sandeep

[Neutrality]

Thanks for the links sandeep. Very interesting.

Sid, in what playground did you learn your discussion tactics?