Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi sandeep,

Nope, I did not "come to the conclusion that (you) have abandoned the red clay issue". Please read my posts instead of inventing their content.

Two posts ago I asked you a question - "For the "red clay" theory to be debunked, it first has to be put forward in a coherent and checkable manner. Perhaps you would care to do so?"

You didn't do so, so I asked another similar question in my last post - "Do I take it from your reply that you are not in a position to put the "red clay" theory forward "in a coherent and checkable manner"?

Again, you haven't done so.

Your inability or unwillingness to answer questions about a subject you yourself raised on this thread is undermining your own "red clay" proposition.

If you can't or won't defend your own propositions, how can you expect to have them taken seriously?

You ask, "Can we discuss the points raised here on the Bormann issue just on merit?" Yes, and that is precisely why I am trying tease out of you a "a coherent and checkable" defence of your "red clay" theory.

Cheers,

Sid.

P. S. You still haven't answered my other question: "Is the greyfalcon site you link us to in your last post the same greyfalcon site specializing in flying saucers and UFOs?" Context is important. A simple yes or no would suffice.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Sid I have myself categorically mentioned (if you check my posts) that I would get back on the red clay issue..can you not cut me that much slack ?

I have no clue ..neither have I checked ...whether this site is interested in UFOs.. The subjects have no interrelation. UFO is not a disqualifier for a source ..like it might have been if they championed anti semitism....white supremacy..holocaust denial et al.. Many respectable people believe in UFOs..and many Govt agencies are active on it..

The link provides a rich discourse on the Bormann affair..Which you many not agree with. That's fine. But maybe it should be shot down after a perusal at least !

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Sandeep,

I can't even look at, let alone shoot down, anything if you don't put up a coherent and traceable case.

You write, "I have no clue ..neither have I checked ...whether this site is interested in UFOs."

Perhaps you should have checked the context of your link before recommending it to us?

Please check now and give us a definitive answer to this thrice asked question.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. There are now at least two threads where you have asked for time to gather your thoughts. Fair enough. How much breathing space do you need?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Sid ...whether this site also deals with UFO cases is of no interest and no relevance to me in this context....so I wouldn't bother. I repeat this has no relevance to the Bormann debate or on the credibility / suitability of the authors for discussing WWII issues.

So I won't do it unless someone convinces me as to the relevance.

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Sandeep,

The context of sources is very important. Ideally we would all go back to primary sources. We should always be interested in where we get our information because some sources are inherently more likely to be well informed than others. This is especially so on the internet, where no peer review has been undergone to get into print.

If your source specializes in UFO and flying saucer theories, I would suggest that its expertise probably lies elsewhere than our current subject - unless of course Bormann was abducted by aliens!

Cheers,

Sid.

[FrauPanzer]

From what I've read, there were reported sightings of Bormann and Josef Mengele in South America. In 1972 his remains were uncovered by construction workers in Berlin which were only 36 feet from where Axmann claimed to have seen Bormann's body. A DNA test was conducted in 1998 to confirm it. It gets more interesting at this point.... There were facts revealed in the forensic autopsy that pointed to a coverup. Basically the skull was exhumed from Paraguay and reburied in Berlin to hide the fact that Martin Bormann had actually survived the war and escaped. Under Strassner's rule, many SS officers were granted safe entry into the country. There was also a journalist who went to Parauguay's Ministry of Justice and had access to a document dated from the 24th of August, 1961. According to the document it brought both Bormann and Mengele together because Bormann was sick with stomach cancer in Asuncion. Mengele came to treat him under the name of Don Fritz in 1959. The document also says that they both were living in an area of Paraguay called Hohenhau. Mengele was unable to save Bormann. Bormann died in 1959 and his body was taken to Itau. So is this a major coverup from a network of people? Who knows the actual truth. It is certainly a very interesting topic though.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Fraupanzer,

Again we have assertions with no traceable sources. Without traceable sources such assertions are pretty much wortrhless.

Cheers,

Sid.

[FrauPanzer]

I found this documentary on youtube. How valid are these assertions? I'm not too sure but it is worth a view for those interested in this topic....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_UNJOkX0wk

[FranzJ]

I am unable to identify where Horsching is/was. Is that the name of an airport ?

Can anybody help me please ?

Linz Airport, also known as Blue Danube Airport Linz and formerly Hörsching Airport, is a minor international airport near Linz, the third-largest city of Austria.

[Kilroywashere]

One of the better books I have found on this subject would be:
https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Bormann-E ... 1495488144
Paul Manning basically made this topic his entire life's quest, and the end result supposedly saw his son killed for saying to much. Now I am not stating that this is a fact, but after personal research on the subject for many years, I found his information very thought provoking and extremely verifiable.
Lastly, a very interesting site on the affair above can be found here:
http://spitfirelist.com/about-paul-manning/

[nagantino]

Lastly, a very interesting site on the affair above can be found here:
http://spitfirelist.com/about-paul-manning/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS.

Mein Gott im Himmel, was fur ein Unsinn. Is it so unbelievable that he died trying to escape Berlin when thousands were meeting a similar fate. Does the skeletal remains,dental records and eye witness accounts hold no value. If your answer is YES, THEY HOLD NO VALUE OR PROOF, then nothing in your world has proof.

[Kilroywashere]

Lastly, a very interesting site on the affair above can be found here:
http://spitfirelist.com/about-paul-manning/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS.

Mein Gott im Himmel, was fur ein Unsinn. Is it so unbelievable that he died trying to escape Berlin when thousands were meeting a similar fate. Does the skeletal remains,dental records and eye witness accounts hold no value. If your answer is YES, THEY HOLD NO VALUE OR PROOF, then nothing in your world has proof.

OK, this is why I am on the fence but leaning more towards the fact that he did in fact escape and lived out the remainder of his life in Argentina and other places:
1. Red "clayish" sand found on the skeletal remains which is impossible to explain as having come from the earth in Germany
2. A grave site in South America where an eyewitness (priest and his helper) state for the record that Bormann was buried by them in a grave marked for another.
3. The analysis of the inner jaw line found in 1972 which has within it this astounding presence...and I found it hard to believe originally that someone could be so stupid....That it actually had within the jawline a form of dental procedure which could not have been done on anyone before the 1960's because it wasn't invented yet.
4. A bank note with both Juan Peron and Martin Bormann together having a dual bank account in the 1960's.
5. A Step Daughter in south America who is on file and film stating that the man she knew of as a totally different person, eventually shown pictures of Bormann in Germany during the war, and confirming it was in fact the man who adopted her.
6. President Juan Peron's personal assistant stating for a fact up until his death bed, that Martin Bormann was working closely with them through the Auslander's group (in South America and all over the world) with the Peron Administration, financing/supporting, and generally profiting from various German held businesses throughout Argentina and the world; this amounting to over 770 of said companies.
That he was eye witnessed by the owners and front desk personnel (both interviewed) as having stayed in the La Plaza hotel in Buenos Aires Argentina for two years after first arriving on it's shores. They went as far as giving the favorite room number he stayed at, and the fact that he didn't bother hiding who he was...why is that?
Lastly, the main reason why I first questioned his death in 1945 was because of the fact that the Nuremberg Authorities tried and sentenced him to death in absentia. Why would they do this, and why would the FBI and other intelligence organizations continue to involve themselves with every "kook" who continued to report in these eyewitness accounts throughout the 50's and 60's? Paranoia is one thing, and honestly I don't believe Hitler did anything more than shoot himself in the bunker dead, but Bormann was setting up an entire financial empire after late 43', and Manning's book goes into all of this in much better detail than I have placed down briefly here. He shows the paper trails, he lists the companies and their involvement, he relates with how the laundering was working, where it went to, how it was utilized.....etc.

Even if you totally disagree with what I write down here, read the book and find out for yourself. It's surprised me greatly.

[Sid Guttridge]

Is this serious?

Red "clayish" (I would emphasize the impreciseness of the "-ish") sand cannot come from German soil? It is apparently favoured for growing some German wines!

Martin Bormann was so stupid as to spend two years living openly in Argentina under his own name, even as he was wanted on capital charges as a war criminal? Really?

Juan Peron was silly enough to have a joint bank account with Bormann in both their names? Is this likely?

Are we to believe that two such arch schemers as Bormann and Peron were this dim?

I haven't got an overly high opinion of either, but even I don't rate their intelligence that low!

Sid.

[Kilroywashere]

Is this serious?

Red "clayish" (I would emphasize the impreciseness of the "-ish") sand cannot come from German soil? It is apparently favoured for growing some German wines!

Martin Bormann was so stupid as to spend two years living openly in Argentina under his own name, even as he was wanted on capital charges as a war criminal? Really?

Juan Peron was silly enough to have a joint bank account with Bormann in both their names? Is this likely?

Are we to believe that two such arch schemers as Bormann and Peron were this dim?

I haven't got an overly high opinion of either, but even I don't rate their intelligence that low!

Sid.

As I understand how you feel about the situation, here are some interesting notes to consider:

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/8255644

“Hugh Thomas, surgeon, international forensic expert and author of the 1995 book Doppelgängers wrote extensively about the Bormann forensics investigation that suggest Bormann died later than 1945. According to Jonathan Glancey of The Guardian, Thomas's ''scalpel-sharp eye for detail'' and second investigative work Hess: A Tale of Two Murders, ''precipitated a six-month Scotland Yard inquiry that saw its report immediately suppressed." Thomas confirms that the original Bormann medical reports in 1972 released only some and not all the information found under the microscope. While it is true the dentistry of the skull found was identified as Bormann, the official report failed to reveal to the public that there was dentistry performed in the skull, which could only have been done in the 1950's due to the technology used. A man that died in 1945 is certainly not going to go to the dentist in 1950. Also, the skull ''found'' in Berlin was encased in a 'red clay' type earth, exotic to Germany but local to a place in Paraguay, the very place that many investigators have traced Bormann to in his last years. Those last year's being as late as 1969. Reinhardt Gehlen former senior Nazi, Cold war spymaster and head of the West German intelligence network, also claimed that Bormann escaped to South America and died in Paraguay.”

The bank account reciept: http://www.animalfarm.org/mb/17i.shtml

Lastly and not to be snide, but honestly, I had no idea that German winemakers could have been planting in red "claish" dirt at the Lehrter station railway switching yard during the battles, or even a 100 years before that, considering the ground there has been the same for as many years as I can find:
Kuhlmann, Bernd (2006). Bahnknoten Berlin (Berlin railway junction) (in German). Berlin: Verlag GVE. ISBN 3-89218-099-7.

Although I will concede the fact that it is possible to have found red type dirt in Germany (exotic nonetheless), there was no dirt deposits of "red clayish" dirt within the vicinity, as Thomas did an extensive investigation to ensure the accuracy of his findings.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Krwh,

Those are not "interesting notes". They are an internet aricle drawn from secondary sources with no traceable original sources of their own - not even a page number. This is an evidentially worthless piece of conspiracy theory compilation by one journalist from other journalistic sources.

The "bank receipt" link is equally worthless. You, who presumably have little to hide by comparison to Martin Bormann, are using a pseudonym here on AHF. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that a financial transaction between Peron, who had much at risk as a serving head of state, and Bormann, who was an indicted war criminal, would leave a paper trail in their real names? This is not serious stuff.

As for the "red clayish dirt", perhaps Borman was killed by a dislodged red terracotta flower pot hitting him on the head? A long shot, I appreciate, but it is about as likely as some of the other propositions here!

Cheers,

Sid.