Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
Oscarruben
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: 13 Jun 2010 19:20

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Oscarruben » 23 Oct 2018 18:15

I mean, I do not have evidence that HITLER has murdered CANARIS or given him the chance to flee. Please do not take the words out of context. With respect to the opinions of each of the members of the Forum, it is consistent with each point of opinion. But who has the truth? Those who watch a documentary ?, Do they read a book? Those who saw something or someone and did not photograph it? Those who believe in the reports of the MI6 or CIA? Everything is possible and there is always a blanket of doubt even in personal interviews, but all the characters that I named lived and died in Argentina. How did they arrive? A great mystery . Thank you

nammie44
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 14 Aug 2018 02:45
Location: USA

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by nammie44 » 24 Oct 2018 01:45

Martin Bormann did not survive the war. Dental records confirmed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann

Oscarruben
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: 13 Jun 2010 19:20

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Oscarruben » 24 Oct 2018 02:18

Of course he is dead. The corpse is his but they took it from PARAGUAY to close the official story. Well, I leave the subject finished. Evidently this is a story without end and none is right. My greetings

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Oct 2018 10:56

Hi Oscarruben,

No, the story is long over and is quite straightforward. It's just that some people prefer to believe ridiculously convoluted and unlikely alternatives.

Cheers,

Sid.

hsa601
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 13:06

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by hsa601 » 24 Oct 2018 12:05

Amen Sid. Well said.

sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2018 10:30

Hi everyone..

Some of us have been arguing that the red clay deposits on Bormann's remains dug up in Berlin make it inconceivable that the skeleton had stayed in that location every since his death..since Berlin soil is sandy. This issue was challenged by some members and substantial evidence for the same was demanded.

I am giving below comments from Consultant Surgeon WH Thomas who was in the concerned forensic team and directly involved in this matter :

"While not wishing for one instant to give credence to John Ainsworth-Davis's far-fetched claims in your article "Did Bond save Bormann...?" (4 August), I must point out as incorrect comments ascribed to Charles Whiting.

No German pathologist was involved in the examination of Hitler's remains. The pathologists verifying his death were all Soviet and the second forensic account based on their findings was made by myself.

The German pathologists who examined Martin Bormann's remains were overseen by Professor Sognnaes, the world famous forensic orthodontist from UCLA - who worked in close co-operation with myself.

The dental records, while proving the identity of Bormann, displayed worrying anomalies which suggested that much dental work had been carried out after 1945. Bormann's skull was also encased in red clay of a type common in Ita, the village in Paraguay where recently discovered Paraguayan police records suggest that Bormanndied. This clay is totally absent in the Berlin Ulap fairground where the skull was discovered. There is, therefore, considerable proof that Bormann's remains were taken back to Berlin for discovery - possibly to discredit those engaged in the then current search for Mengele, who it is claimed was treated by the same dentist in Paraguay, Heikel.

The Bormann family are due shortly to produce the results of DNA tests which will conclusively prove that it was Bormann whose remains were discovered in Berlin - which leaves open the question as to when he died. I suggest forensic facts and not historical hyperbole are best suited to such complicated cases.

W H Thomas

Consultant surgeon

Brecon, Powys"


(https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/le ... 09231.html)

His letter mentions not only the red clay matter but also the other riddle about dental work done post 1945. I do hope that this should lay to rest idle speculation on this issue.

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2018 10:39

If this strengthens the impression that Bormann escaped Berlin that day, it raises interesting questions on certain other things of historical relevance today but of 0 material value at present :

Why did Axmann lie so elaborately? Was he with Bormann during the final run from Berlin? What happened to Stumpfegger? Did he actually die that night and his body seen by the duo? Did he too escape?
Which agency was involved in the complex exercise of reburying Bormann's remains in Berlin? How did this agency use Bormann after his escape? Axmann stayed back in Germany and was captured while trying to reorganise the HJ. Was he "looked after" by the same agency so that he got off lightly? Did they hv a mandate for him too in post war Germany?

Cheers
Sandeep

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Nov 2018 13:41

Hi Sandeep,

You post, "His letter mentions not only the red clay matter but also the other riddle about dental work done post 1945. I do hope that this should lay to rest idle speculation on this issue."

Sadly, it won't end your idle speculation.

Firstly, the opinion of a British consultant surgeon on Paraguayan clay is worthless, unless he also happens to have a degree in geology. There is presumably someone else who drew this connection.

Secondly, he only mentions the red clay matter and does not say that it is the same as the Paraguayan sample, just of a type common there.

Thirdly, there is no riddle about the dental work. He only said that post-1945 dental work is "suggested". It would only be a riddle if it was established.

Cheers,

Sid.

sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2018 14:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Nov 2018 13:41
Hi Sandeep,

You post, "His letter mentions not only the red clay matter but also the other riddle about dental work done post 1945. I do hope that this should lay to rest idle speculation on this issue."

Sadly, it won't end your idle speculation.

Firstly, the opinion of a British consultant surgeon on Paraguayan clay is worthless, unless he also happens to have a degree in geology. There is presumably someone else who drew this connection.

Secondly, he only mentions the red clay matter and does not say that it is the same as the Paraguayan sample, just of a type common there.

Thirdly, there is no riddle about the dental work. He only said that post-1945 dental work is "suggested". It would only be a riddle if it was established.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

A British Surgeon isn't disqualified from holding valid common sense. He can say that the place dug up in Berlin didn't have red clay soil. The issue of Paraguay (or Mars) is secondary. We are debating whether Bormann died and lay under Berlin since 2nd May '45 or was his skeleton brought in from from somewhere else after his death and reburied in Berlin.
Now a British surgeon, while not being a geologist is a medical man and would know about major developments in he medical field in general. He was found to be the right person to do a forensic analysis of a controversial historical figure's remains. Dental evidence is part of that analysis. He knows what he is talking about here..if not about Paraguayan soil from near a specific village.

Cheers

Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2018 14:08

Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Nov 2018 13:41
Hi Sandeep,

You post, "His letter mentions not only the red clay matter but also the other riddle about dental work done post 1945. I do hope that this should lay to rest idle speculation on this issue."

Sadly, it won't end your idle speculation.

Firstly, the opinion of a British consultant surgeon on Paraguayan clay is worthless, unless he also happens to have a degree in geology. There is presumably someone else who drew this connection.

Secondly, he only mentions the red clay matter and does not say that it is the same as the Paraguayan sample, just of a type common there.

Thirdly, there is no riddle about the dental work. He only said that post-1945 dental work is "suggested". It would only be a riddle if it was established.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

A British Surgeon isn't disqualified from holding valid common sense. He can say that the place dug up in Berlin didn't have red clay soil. The issue of Paraguay (or Mars) is secondary. We are debating whether Bormann died and lay under Berlin since 2nd May '45 or was his skeleton brought in from from somewhere else after his death and reburied in Berlin.
Now a British surgeon, while not being a geologist is a medical man and would know about major developments in the medical field in general. He was found to be the right person to do a forensic analysis of a controversial historical figure's remains. Dental evidence is part of that analysis. He knows what he is talking about here..if not about Paraguayan soil from near a specific village.

Cheers

Sandeep

User avatar
Annelie
Member
Posts: 5054
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 02:45
Location: North America

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Annelie » 21 Nov 2018 18:29

Believe more in the information on this site than anything posted on this thread.


https://www.hitlerpages.com/bormann.html

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Nov 2018 15:01

Hi Sandeep,

Certainly a "British Surgeon isn't disqualified from holding valid common sense". However, even assuming he uses his "valid common sense", it doesn't make him qualified to comment with authority on either Berlin's or Paraguay's geology. Clearly someone else drew this conclusion. Who? [You cannot just stop your search when you find a source that conforms with your preconceptions, you must follow it through to the end).]

Nor is a surgeon qualified to talk with authority on dentistry. Surgeons don't practice dentistry for a reason - they are not qualified to do so. This aside, I repeat, "He only said that post-1945 dental work is "suggested"." Again, by whom? It is presumably some other party, hopefully more qualified to do so.

There may be reasonable answers to all these questions, but you are not providing them, as yet.

Cheers,

Sid.

sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 24 Nov 2018 03:51

Sid Guttridge wrote:
23 Nov 2018 15:01
Hi Sandeep,

Certainly a "British Surgeon isn't disqualified from holding valid common sense". However, even assuming he uses his "valid common sense", it doesn't make him qualified to comment with authority on either Berlin's or Paraguay's geology. Clearly someone else drew this conclusion. Who? [You cannot just stop your search when you find a source that conforms with your preconceptions, you must follow it through to the end).]

Nor is a surgeon qualified to talk with authority on dentistry. Surgeons don't practice dentistry for a reason - they are not qualified to do so. This aside, I repeat, "He only said that post-1945 dental work is "suggested"." Again, by whom? It is presumably some other party, hopefully more qualified to do so.

There may be reasonable answers to all these questions, but you are not providing them, as yet.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid...

Often "Suggested" is a polite term in academic circles for expressing strong opinions too. He may not be a dentist but a forensic surgeon has to keep abreast of medical developments like the case in point.

The entire system of using forensic science in criminology would collapse if surgeons can't analyse and differentiate in instances like this.

Knowing about the basic nature of the soil in a particular locale is not rocket science either. That too would come within the ambit of a forensic surgeon's work in cases like this for sure?

Cheers
Sandeep

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Nov 2018 13:37

Hi Sandeep,

Nope, "suggested" is not "a polite term in academic circles for expressing strong opinions". Academics are meant to use language with precision, and English-language academics, in particular, have a million-word vocabulary available to make sure they do so. "Suggested" is weak term suggesting some measure of doubt or uncertainty.

Certainly, "Knowing about the basic nature of the soil in a particular locale is not rocket science". On the other hand it is specialist knowledge that a forensic surgeon would need to consult others over.

What we need from you, before this is worth following any further is:

(1) Where did he get his dental information from?

(2) Where did he get his geological information from?

At the moment there is nothing to go on beyond assertions without traceable sources.

Cheers,

Sid.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005 10:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Post by ManfredV » 25 Nov 2018 16:47

1. The whole thing depends on this "red soil story". Is there any reliable source /evidence about this "red soil" at Bormann's remains? Is it mentioned in an official report by German authorities, forensic report etc?
2. There is a great difference between remains that were only a short time buried and those which were buried for decades or longer. Lets say: Bormann lived in South America and died somewhere in the 1960ies, later his remains were brought to Berlin (by whom and why?) and buried. When his remains were found and examined by pathologists, they had bones of a man who was there most probably for more than 20 years. No one of them noticed that is was a "younger" body?
3. There are eyewitnesses: Axmann, his adjudant (ok, can we trust them?) and the man who buried Bormann. A first search had no result but some years later Bormann's remains were found accidentally only some metres away from the place his "undertaker" rememered.

The whole story "Bormann escaped and later died in South America, his body was brought to Berlin and buried there" is a conspiracy theory or a "Räuberpistole" as we say in german.

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”