Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
Post Reply
sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#241

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 25 Nov 2018, 19:32

Hi..

Different "eyewitnesses" said radically different things about Bormann's "death". All of them can't be right certainly? He couldn't have died violently in a tank battle on Weidendammer bridge AND lie "peacefully" without a mark on him near Lehrter Bahnhof surely? Differences in a 27 yr dead skeleton and a 15 yr old one?
His family didnt accept his remains either...

Cheers
Sandeep

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#242

Post by ManfredV » 25 Nov 2018, 20:34

You must read exactly: some eyewitnesses saw the tank exploding and they didn't see Bormann afterwards. Therefore they believed he was dead.
Some believed ( not saw!) he was in the tank, other saw him nearby.
Axmann and his adjutant said they saw his and Stumpfegger's bodies some hours later. The man who buried him (who didn't recognized Bormann at that time) said he buried two man there.
1972/73 forensic analysis identified Bormann's bones and said he died of poisson. 1998 a DNA analysis confirmed Bormann's identity. His familiy accepted he was dead.


sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#243

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 26 Nov 2018, 05:50

ManfredV wrote:
25 Nov 2018, 20:34
You must read exactly: some eyewitnesses saw the tank exploding and they didn't see Bormann afterwards. Therefore they believed he was dead.
Some believed ( not saw!) he was in the tank, other saw him nearby.
Axmann and his adjutant said they saw his and Stumpfegger's bodies some hours later. The man who buried him (who didn't recognized Bormann at that time) said he buried two man there.
1972/73 forensic analysis identified Bormann's bones and said he died of poisson. 1998 a DNA analysis confirmed Bormann's identity. His familiy accepted he was dead.
Pl help me a bit here with the following:

# Who and where was Axmann's "adjutant" in this entire episode? I never heard about such a person in this context.

# Where is the link / reference which says Bormann's bones revealed he died of poison?

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
Member
Posts: 1524
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#244

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 26 Nov 2018, 06:01

ManfredV wrote:
25 Nov 2018, 20:34
You must read exactly: some eyewitnesses saw the tank exploding and they didn't see Bormann afterwards. Therefore they believed he was dead.
Some believed ( not saw!) he was in the tank, other saw him nearby.
Axmann and his adjutant said they saw his and Stumpfegger's bodies some hours later. The man who buried him (who didn't recognized Bormann at that time) said he buried two man there.
1972/73 forensic analysis identified Bormann's bones and said he died of poisson. 1998 a DNA analysis confirmed Bormann's identity. His familiy accepted he was dead.
Another point I missed. Kempke claimed tht he "saw" Bormann blown up in the Tank battle. Baur said Bormann was "inside" the tank. I will get back with more "eyewitness" stuff about tht episode on Weidendammer Brucke...

Cheers
Sandeep

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#245

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Nov 2018, 14:56

Hi Guys,

We seem to be left with two agreed facts:

1) Bormann is long dead.

2) His body was found decades after 1945 in Berlin on an escape route witnesses say he was using.

This tells us that, unless some new, hard evidence indicates otherwise, he died trying to escape from Berlin in 1945.

As things stand, such alternative hard evidence does not exist.

I will believe anything so long as reasonable evidence exists to support it, but in this case it does not. As it stands, all that exists is the usual unsubstantiated, contrived conspiracy-theorist, doubt-throwing on the above, generally agreed, version and a completely unsubstantiated and highly convoluted alternative tale of escape to South America, death in exile and reburial in Berlin decades later.

There is no real controversy here. The hard evidence indicates that Bormann died trying to escape from Berlin in 1945.

Cheers,

Sid.

ManfredV
Member
Posts: 460
Joined: 10 May 2005, 11:55
Location: Pirmasens

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#246

Post by ManfredV » 28 Nov 2018, 19:57

I agree.

hsa601
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 05 Apr 2013, 14:06

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#247

Post by hsa601 » 29 Nov 2018, 14:19

Well said Sid - Amen

Br. James
Member
Posts: 897
Joined: 27 May 2013, 21:45
Location: Baltimore

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#248

Post by Br. James » 29 Nov 2018, 18:47

AMEN, Sid! With thanks.

Br. James

ajcol
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 07 May 2020, 01:36
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#249

Post by ajcol » 10 May 2020, 15:23

Annelie wrote:
21 Nov 2018, 19:29
Believe more in the information on this site than anything posted on this thread.


https://www.hitlerpages.com/bormann.html
I generally agree with your statement Annelie, however the author of 'hitlerpages' states - "At the end of the Friedrichstrasse, just past the S-Bahnstation, is the Weidendammer Brücke across the Spree. Next to the bridge must have been an iron walking bridge at that time."
This appears to be an incorrect assumption as this aerial photo (US Archives 1945) via GoogleEarth timeline shows a footbridge on the west side of the Friedrichstrasse S-Bahnstation and not beside the Weidendammer Brücke. I also recall reading 'somewhere' (searched for it but without success!) that the 1st group led by Mohnke crossed the Spree on an iron footbridge about 300m downstream from the Weidendammer Brücke, which would be about right for the footbridge shown in this photograph.
Iron Footbridge.JPG

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#250

Post by Simon Gunson » 21 Dec 2020, 09:04

Image

Martin Bormann’s skull was dug up encrusted with red volcanic soil next to the Lehrter Railroad station in West Berlin's on Invaliden Strasse, Ulap fairgrounds in 1972, later DNA from his teeth proved that it wasbindeed Bormann’s skull. Problem was his teeth were different from their last seen condition in February 1945. The skull’s left first and right third molars and right central incisor were all missing in 1972 , but present in 1945. There was also bridge work performed with postwar techniques.

Martin Bormann's dentist Dr Hugo Blaschke examined Bormann in February 1945. Tooth sockets or Avioli were grown over by bone growth , a process which takes 6 months. For that to be possible Bormann still had to be alive in November 1945.

Image

Mark Costa
Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: 26 Jul 2002, 18:41
Location: USA

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#251

Post by Mark Costa » 21 Dec 2020, 16:57

Simon Gunson wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 09:04
Image

Martin Bormann’s skull was dug up encrusted with red volcanic soil next to the Lehrter Railroad station in West Berlin's on Invaliden Strasse, Ulap fairgrounds in 1972, later DNA from his teeth proved that it wasbindeed Bormann’s skull. Problem was his teeth were different from their last seen condition in February 1945. The skull’s left first and right third molars and right central incisor were all missing in 1972 , but present in 1945. There was also bridge work performed with postwar techniques.

Martin Bormann's dentist Dr Hugo Blaschke examined Bormann in February 1945. Tooth sockets or Avioli were grown over by bone growth , a process which takes 6 months. For that to be possible Bormann still had to be alive in November 1945.

Image
Sorry but none of which you state is correct. The entire forensic examinations are available and the denistry issues you list are not true. And the body was definately confirmed to be of a 45 year old man. Bormann was born in 1900. Hence he was 45 years old. So unless he found the fountain of youth in South America, he died in 1945 in Berlin. Also no one has ever been able to explain how they managed to keep Dr Stumpfegger's body on ice for years to be re-buried right next to Bormann's. His body was also found to be of the correct age in 1945. These conspiracy stories are just that stories that do not follow any logic. In regards to a question above in another post -- Axmann's aide was Gunther Weltzin who was captured by the Russians and died in captivity -- his interrogations surfaced after the fall of the Soviet union and backs up Axmann's account of finding Bormann and Stumpfegger dead.

Mark Costa

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#252

Post by Simon Gunson » 22 Dec 2020, 00:14

Incorrect DNA established the skull was that of Martin Bormann and the Avioli (tooth sockets) were grown over, a feat which required Bormann to have lived 6 months beyond the fall of Berlin in 1945. The skull was indeed caked with red volcanic soil. Berlin has light sandy soil.

Unless you can identify a volcano somewhere in the heart of Berlin, Bormann must have survived the war
Image

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#253

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Dec 2020, 12:33

Hi Simon,

Paraguay isn't that big on active volcanoes either!

What is the primary source for the "red-volcanic-clay-from-Paraguay" story?

Has anyone actually analysed it in comparison with Paraguayan volcanic soils?

Cheers,

Sid.

Mark Costa
Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: 26 Jul 2002, 18:41
Location: USA

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#254

Post by Mark Costa » 22 Dec 2020, 16:43

Simon Gunson wrote:
22 Dec 2020, 00:14
Incorrect DNA established the skull was that of Martin Bormann and the Avioli (tooth sockets) were grown over, a feat which required Bormann to have lived 6 months beyond the fall of Berlin in 1945. The skull was indeed caked with red volcanic soil. Berlin has light sandy soil.

Unless you can identify a volcano somewhere in the heart of Berlin, Bormann must have survived the war
Image
The red soil theory was debunked years ago. It just doesn't exist and was made up by an author for one of those conspriracy books. Read Blaschke's actual report and you will see the avioli issue was not an issue. The conspiracy people grabbed on this a evidence that he survived but the report and Blaschke's words destroys that theory. Why would anyone keep Bormann alive for a few months -- they rebury him in Berlin. I still have not seen anyone explain Stumpfegger or the fact that Bormann was only 45 years -- how did his body not age if he actually survived ????!!!!!!!

Mark Costa

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

#255

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Dec 2020, 00:26

Hi Mark Costa,

Many thanks.

Sid.

Post Reply

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”