Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

[Roderick]

I believe that Herr Bormann died in May 2, 1945 and his skeleton was found in December, 1972.
The evidences are in http://www.anesi.com/east/bormann.htm

Roderick

[1812]

I agree that Bormann killed himself in 1945. There is no other explanation for the body they found.

[Locke]

Try these links:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... in+bormann
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... nn&start=0

Regards,
Polona

[Simon Gunson]

Dear Petterson, you did not ask a silly question in my view. Michael Miller is factually correct in his entry that a skeleton recovered from 59 Invalidenstrasse in December 1972, was subsequently DNA tested about 1998 and compared with Martin Borman Jr to prove that the skeleton was his father ... But that is just half the story.

The skull when unearthed was caked in red volcanic soil which matched soil found in Paraguay suggesting Bormann had first been buried in Paraguay, unearthed and then reburied in Berlin. Both the Bormann family and German government refused requests to have the soil tested and the skeleton was cremated in great secrecy.

Hitler's dentist Dr Hugo Blaschke reconstructed both Bormann, Gobbels and Hitler's dental records for the Allies in 1945. Bormann's skull had about eight fillings not performed before May 1945. It had an upper right 3rd molar crown not present in 1945 and a lower window crown bridge from lower right to lower left lateral incissor inclusive. During the war Blaschke had performed a crown on Bormann's U/left cent incissor which in the 1972 skeleton was replaced by three element bridge. There were also at least three teeth L/L 1st molar U/L bicuspid and U/L 2nd Bicuspid
missing with bone growth over their sockets which had been present before the breakout on 2 May 1945.

There were also four conflicting versions of Bormann's fate on 2 May 1945 from Kempka, Diers, Axmann and Tiburtius.

These are known facts which conflict with the accepted explanation that DNA testing has solved Bormann's fate. I hope this answers your questions ?

[Simon Gunson]

Hi R Bob the Great and Ike_FI and thanks for the Diers' story

The Bormann myth continues because although DNA does confirm the 1972 skeleton was Bormann's authorities refuse to explain postwar dental work, or allow independent examination of the red volcanic soil caked in Bormann's skull.

10 points to anyone who can name the nearest volcano to Berlin ?

Kempka appears to have given conflicting accounts that when the tank (armoured car in some accounts) which Bormann sheltered beside exploded, that he saw Bormann fall with his leather coat on fire.

This conflicts with Russian claims that a leather coat was found some distance away to the west near Lehrter S-bahn (station) with Bormann's diary in it's pocket, but interestingly not Hitler's will, which was known to be in that coat's pocket that night. If Kempka saw the coat ablaze how was it later found intact ?

When Axmann's story came out years later Kempka's story apparently changed to state that Kempka was concussed and temporarily blinded.

Axmann's story also appears to have evolved. He first stated that after the tank exploded about 1am on 2 May 1945, that he came across the dead unmarked corpse of Bormann on his back in the moonlight.

I have read elsewhere that Axmann said he saw Stumpfegger and Bormann alive taking cyanide (prussic acid). There were also conflicting claims that Bormann was still wearing the coat when Axmann saw them, but that the coat was found separate from the corpses by the Russians.

The mind boggles at all these differing stories... Please can anybody cite for me a book or website in english that has the original accounts of Axmann and Kempka ?

Also can anybody identify for me Russian accounts that Hanna Reitsch returned to Berlin on 30 April 1945 after flying von Greim to Doeintz's HQ to arrest Himmler on the 29th April 1945 ?
Everybody has heard of Reitsch's flight in on 27 April and out on 29 April, but does anybody know more about her second flight ?

Hanna Reitsch and Hans Ulrich Rudel spent all of November and December 1944 practising landings at the Berlin Zoo quite close to the Reich's chancellery.

Appreciatively Simon Gunson :wink:

[Simon Gunson]

Having just read "The Berlin Bunker" by a WW2 US intelligence officer James P O'Donnell, pub 1979 J.M. Dent & sons ISBN 0-340-04402-8.
He devotes two whole chapters to claims that in his last fornight alive Hitler was preoccupied not with advancing Russians but with leaks of information on an Allied radio station masquerading as an SS station known as "Soldatensender West"

It broadcast juicy gossip about Hitler's inner circle only known to those who were closest to Hitler. RSHA boss Heinrich Muller was summoned to Berlin to find the security leak in April 1945.

O'Donnell asserts from sources he interviewed that Himmler's SS attache Fegelien may not have been shot after all. He was arrested in Berlin on 27 April 1945 in company with a British woman, a bag full of German and Swiss currency, gold rings and watches, pearls, diamond jewellery and two passports one British with photographs, both of his companion The woman was not arrested. Fegelein was arrested for attempting to desert.

After radio broadcasts about Himmler trying to cut a deal with the British and Americans, Hitler demanded that Fegelein be charged with treason.

The trial was abandoned because Fegelien was drunk. Rattenhuber was tasked with holding Fegelien and carrying out the firing squad, but it is known that Bormann intervened and that Gestapo Muller removed the prisoner to be interrogated at the Dreifeltigkiet chapel. After being led away by Gestapo men, Fegelein was not seen again. Hitler delayed his marriage to Eva Braun to seek advice from Muller whether Fegelein had indeed been shot. Muller said he was.

Hanna Reitsch asserted that she saw Fegelien shot ten minutes before her departure with von Greim. Reitsch later recanted this saying she only heard of Fegelein's execution by hearsay.

Hanna Reitsch let slip to American interrogators that when she flew out of Berlin's Tiergarten just before midnight on 28 April she saw a Ju-52 parked in a sheltered revetment and the pilot waiting by the plane was probably the same one who had flown Fegelein to Berlin from Rechlin airport. To my knowlege the Russians never reported finding the wreckage of this Ju-52 so it must be assumed it flew out ?

Whilst the Gestapo marched Fegelein off on the 28th for interrogation, Bormann personally went off to Fegelein's flat to find the woman armed with a description from Hans Bauer who knew her. RHSA then ordered a Ju-290 aircraft of I/KG200 with fuselage code PJ+PS to make a one way VIP flight from Horsching to Barcelona at the first opportunity from 30 April 1945.

The flight was to be flown by Haupt Braun & Ofw Aufdenkamp ordered by Fuhrungstab I/Ic secret command matter Br.B. No 1136/45. Hitler is known to have ordered Bormann to escape with his will so it is conceivable the Ju-52 flew Muller and Bormann to Horschung and from there they escaped by Ju-290 to Barcelona.

It was alleged by Adolf Eichman's son in Argentina that Heinrich Muller lived on an estate in Cordoba, Argentina under the name Hertzog. When Muller's grave in the war cemetary at Kreuzburg in Berlin was exumed on 25 September 1963 it was found to contain an assortment of bones from three separate individuals to represent one anatomically correct body. The three donors were all taller in stature than Muller had been.

Indeed there was also sworn terstimony from Karl Lukas that he had seen Adolf Eichmann shot dead at Prague on 28 April 1945, but then of course Eichman, the man who died twice turned up again in Argentina in 1960.

I am unable to identify where Horsching is/was. Is that the name of an airport ?

Can anybody help me please ?

[Ritter von der Kreuz]

[quote="Simon Gunson"]
The skull when unearthed was caked in red volcanic soil which matched soil found in Paraguay suggesting Bormann had first been buried in Paraguay, unearthed and then reburied in Berlin. Both the Bormann family and German government refused requests to have the soil tested and the skeleton was cremated in great secrecy.

Hitler's dentist Dr Hugo Blaschke reconstructed both Bormann, Gobbels and Hitler's dental records for the Allies in 1945. Bormann's skull had about eight fillings not performed before May 1945. It had an upper right 3rd molar crown not present in 1945 and a lower window crown bridge from lower right to lower left lateral incissor inclusive. During the war Blaschke had performed a crown on Bormann's U/left cent incissor which in the 1972 skeleton was replaced by three element bridge. There were also at least three teeth L/L 1st molar U/L bicuspid and U/L 2nd Bicuspid
missing with bone growth over their sockets which had been present before the breakout on 2 May 1945.
quote]

A wonderfully detailed account of this can be found in the book "The Murder of Adolf Hitler" (the author escapes my memory immediately). I believe based on the evidence that Bormann did indeed die in Paraguay and for whatever reason was reburied in Berlin.

Of further interest in the afore mentioned book is evidence that Eva Braun may possibly not have died in the bunker, but let me not start a new thread and argument!

[Simon Gunson]

If you read the book "Bormann the man who manipulated Hitler" by Hans Jochen Lange (one of Gobbels WW2 staff) it has photos of the skull and the red soil which encrusted it.

"The Berlin Bunker" by James P O'Donnell may have another similar photo.

The West German Government and the Bormann family refused all permission to study the soil. His skeleton was hastily cremated and the ashes spread in the baltic in great secrecy to prevent all further investigations.

At the time there were protests in many newspapers wanting to know more about the red soil. These included:

The News Letter (Belfast, Northern Ireland); 5/5/1998

The Scotsman (Edinburgh, Scotland); 8/30/1999

The Birmingham Post (England); 5/11/1998

One reason why doubt remains is the amount of conflicting stories about his "alleged" escape on the night of 1/2 May 1945.

Hitler's chuaffeur Kempka said they went through thunderground railway tunnel beneath the river Spree to the freidrichstrasse station where they emerged and met up with a tank unit and near Zeigelstrasse the armoured car which Martin Bormann was allegedly sheltering beside exploded. Kempka said he saw Bormann on fire and fall down dead.

The problem with this story which Axmann partly agreed with up to the exploding armoured car is that neither Axmann nor Kempka could have passed through the underground railway tunnel because the SS flooded it to stop the Soviets on 23 April 1945.

Artur Axmann said he found Bormann lying dead on his back several blocks away on a bridge near Lehrter S-Bahn (rail station) with no injuries and his face bathed in moonlight. Unfortunately there was almost no moon that night as it was 13 days past the full moon and the highest the moon reached before dawn was 18 degrees above the horizon. It was a very thin crescent and unable to bathe anybody's face in moonlight.

Axmann also said he was captured by russian soldiers between Ziegel strasse and Lehrter S-Bahn. Axmann said that although he was in a senior SS Hitlerjugend uniform they just let him walk away, whilst Hans Baur who followed the same route complained Soviet snipers shot at anything that moved. Hitlers pilot Hans Baur was shot quite badly in fact.

Both accounts also conflict with the account of the tank commander corporal George Diers Pz Abt 503 who says his panzer carried Bormann on it's tail and did not explode at all, but rather his passengers were shot off the rear by small arms fire.

Diers said his King Tiger in company with other panzers and fleeing VIPs was shot up by small arms fire near Ziegel Strasse. Diers related that someone jumped up to his turret and advised him to change direction westward.

When Diers asked what happened to three passengers aboard his tank previously which included Bormann, the individual giving instructions said they were "ripped apart" and shot to pieces by shooting from Ziegel Strasse. Unfortunately the Skeleton later proved by DNA testing to be bormann's had no bones fractured by bullets.

Another problem with Diers' account is that he says the party including Bormann Kempka and Axmann travelled with his tanks from the Fuhrer bunker and not underground.

Yet another source whom I forget at the moment said Bormann was inside the "tank" which exploded. Some say tank, others say armoured car etc.

Paul Manning wrote a book in which he cited two of Hitler's dental assistants to Dr Blaschke who said that two Bormann look alikes were removed from concentration camps and given identical dentistry to Bormann's and accompanied the break out party. Thus the confusion was planned in advance by Bormann.

Also a Ju-52 left Berlin's Brandenburg gates on 29 April 1945 from the same runway used by Hanna Reitsch and ritter von Greim earlier. Col Niklaus von Below is known to have flown out on 29 April 1945 and Hitler is known to have ordered Bormann to escape as executor of his last will.

During the Cold War the CIA needed Stalin to believe Bormann had died in Berlin. The Soviets were looking for an excuse to accuse the west of aiding Bormann's flight. The Soviets knew that Himmler was wheeling and dealing with the western allies before Hitler's death.

If you follow the railway line west or left from the Freidrichstrasse bridge (Weidendamm Bridge) to the next railway station, that is roughly the route claimed by Baur and Axmann

[DrG]

Artur Axmann said he found Bormann lying dead on his back several blocks away on a bridge near Lehrter S-Bahn (rail station) with no injuries and his face bathed in moonlight. Unfortunately there was almost no moon that night as it was 13 days past the full moon and the highest the moon reached before dawn was 18 degrees above the horizon. It was a very thin crescent and unable to bathe anybody's face in moonlight.

In this page: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html you can calculate the moon phase for every place of the world in every date. For Berlin (52°31'N 13°24'E, GMT+1) on 2 May 1945, the Moon was: "waning gibbous with 78% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.", certainly not a thin crescent.
Moonrise 23:48 on preceding day (1 May)
Moon transit 03:44
Moonset 07:38
(Borman allegedly died on 2 May 1945 between 1:30 AM and 2:30 AM).
About the altitude of the Moon, this page: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.html gives a highest number of only 13.9 degrees (13°54') at 3:40-3:50 AM.
Thus it seems that the Moon was more illuminated, but, on the other hand, less high on the horizon than in Simon's source.

Just a couple of links with anti-conspiracy opinions:
animated map of Bormann's escape route: http://www.anesi.com/east/bormapa.htm.
summary about the fate of Bormann written by David Irving, who, at least this time, agrees with most of the historians and explains why: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History_04/Buhr100304.html.

[Karl]

Incredible.

It’s like those people who are still having problems believing in the lunar landings.

Why the hell would ‘certain’ people bring back Bormann’s body?

Sorry, I think some of you are looking for things that are not anywhere in the building, let alone the neighborhood.

No doubt He died in Berlin in May ’45.

[xcalibur]

If you read the book "Bormann the man who manipulated Hitler" by Hans Jochen Lange (one of Gobbels WW2 staff) it has photos of the skull and the red soil which encrusted it.

"The Berlin Bunker" by James P O'Donnell may have another similar photo.

The West German Government and the Bormann family refused all permission to study the soil. His skeleton was hastily cremated and the ashes spread in the baltic in great secrecy to prevent all further investigations.

At the time there were protests in many newspapers wanting to know more about the red soil. These included:

The News Letter (Belfast, Northern Ireland); 5/5/1998

The Scotsman (Edinburgh, Scotland); 8/30/1999

The Birmingham Post (England); 5/11/1998

One reason why doubt remains is the amount of conflicting stories about his "alleged" escape on the night of 1/2 May 1945.

Hitler's chuaffeur Kempka said they went through thunderground railway tunnel beneath the river Spree to the freidrichstrasse station where they emerged and met up with a tank unit and near Zeigelstrasse the armoured car which Martin Bormann was allegedly sheltering beside exploded. Kempka said he saw Bormann on fire and fall down dead.

The problem with this story which Axmann partly agreed with up to the exploding armoured car is that neither Axmann nor Kempka could have passed through the underground railway tunnel because the SS flooded it to stop the Soviets on 23 April 1945.

Artur Axmann said he found Bormann lying dead on his back several blocks away on a bridge near Lehrter S-Bahn (rail station) with no injuries and his face bathed in moonlight. Unfortunately there was almost no moon that night as it was 13 days past the full moon and the highest the moon reached before dawn was 18 degrees above the horizon. It was a very thin crescent and unable to bathe anybody's face in moonlight.

Axmann also said he was captured by russian soldiers between Ziegel strasse and Lehrter S-Bahn. Axmann said that although he was in a senior SS Hitlerjugend uniform they just let him walk away, whilst Hans Baur who followed the same route complained Soviet snipers shot at anything that moved. Hitlers pilot Hans Baur was shot quite badly in fact.

Both accounts also conflict with the account of the tank commander corporal George Diers Pz Abt 503 who says his panzer carried Bormann on it's tail and did not explode at all, but rather his passengers were shot off the rear by small arms fire.

Diers said his King Tiger in company with other panzers and fleeing VIPs was shot up by small arms fire near Ziegel Strasse. Diers related that someone jumped up to his turret and advised him to change direction westward.

When Diers asked what happened to three passengers aboard his tank previously which included Bormann, the individual giving instructions said they were "ripped apart" and shot to pieces by shooting from Ziegel Strasse. Unfortunately the Skeleton later proved by DNA testing to be bormann's had no bones fractured by bullets.

Another problem with Diers' account is that he says the party including Bormann Kempka and Axmann travelled with his tanks from the Fuhrer bunker and not underground.

Yet another source whom I forget at the moment said Bormann was inside the "tank" which exploded. Some say tank, others say armoured car etc.

Paul Manning wrote a book in which he cited two of Hitler's dental assistants to Dr Blaschke who said that two Bormann look alikes were removed from concentration camps and given identical dentistry to Bormann's and accompanied the break out party. Thus the confusion was planned in advance by Bormann.

Also a Ju-52 left Berlin's Brandenburg gates on 29 April 1945 from the same runway used by Hanna Reitsch and ritter von Greim earlier. Col Niklaus von Below is known to have flown out on 29 April 1945 and Hitler is known to have ordered Bormann to escape as executor of his last will.

During the Cold War the CIA needed Stalin to believe Bormann had died in Berlin. The Soviets were looking for an excuse to accuse the west of aiding Bormann's flight. The Soviets knew that Himmler was wheeling and dealing with the western allies before Hitler's death.

If you follow the railway line west or left from the Freidrichstrasse bridge (Weidendamm Bridge) to the next railway station, that is roughly the route claimed by Baur and Axmann

1) The soil point is moot if no analysis was done. For any author to say that the soil is consistent with Paraguayan red volcanic soil is irresponsible. The only thing that can be reliably said about it without analysis is that it was red.

2) The phrase "hastily cremated" is irresponsible as well. What's the point of hanging on to a skeleton no one wants? Is anyone willing to offer any proof that Bormann's skeleton was cremated any differently from any other skeleton after an identification has been made? Or, as is more likely, the phrase is intended to add a sinister tone to something probably quite unremarkable.

3) "The Soviets knew that Himmler was wheeling and dealing with the western allies before Hitler's death." So what? Hitler knew, the Soviets knew, and so did the rest of the world as this was widely reported in the press on April 28, 1945, two days before Hitler's death.

[Daniel O'Brien]

I saw Locke mention that DNA proves that Martin Bormann died in May 1945. Yes, this would endorse the explanations put forth by Erich Kempka and Artur Axmann. But unless I'm mistaken, all the DNA testing proved was that the body was in fact that of Martin Bormann. It did not prove that it had lay there since 1945.

Firstly, I find Kempka's testimony to be sketchy. The very fact that it changed more than once will he was under interrogation backs that up. Axmann's testimony makes for more interesting reading. He claims that he found Dr. Stumpfegger and Bormann lying face up, not wounded in any way. However, in the account I read, Axmann adds that as he hurriedly examined the bodies, he could not find any of the telltale signs of cyanide poisoning either. In short, this does nothing but add to the mystery. Perhaps this is what the high ranking Nazis intended. Indeed, since Bormann was considered to be conniving, and hve no loyalty to anyone but himself, his capture and subsequent interrogation and testimony could prove damaging to others on the run from the Allies.

I've always discarded theories over Hitler's demise, as I'm certain that he committed suicide on April 30 1945, but for some reason, I keep coming back to Bormann again and again. I can't help but feel that he made it out of Berlin that May.

[Mark Costa]

These theories about would hold water if it weren't for the other witnesses that corroborate Axmann's testimony of 1945. Remember there were several Berlin Postal Employees that "identified" Bormann and Stumpfeggers bodies and buried them in the early days of May 1945. One of these postal employees also found Bormann's pocket diary in the leather overcoat of the "small stocky" one, which he turned over to the Soviet authorities. Bormann was wearing a leather SS overcoat and carried his diary with him that night.

Bormann was certainly killed or committed suicide that night of May 1-2 1945 and any other story is just that, a story or wishful thinking. Too much evidence shows that he was dead on the bridge exactly where Axmann saw him and Stumpfegger.
I am sure that someone will post a reply that will read something about Bormann killing someone in his place and planting the diary, killing Stumpfegger, all this planned while he was being shot at by the Russians !!!

Mark Costa

[waffen]

read with interest the books members had posted and there own thoughts on borman. well done all.

[Fermat]

In 1955 an Spanish Volunteer called Juan Pinar came back to Spain from a Russian camp for POW. He declared that he fought in Berlin's Battle, and that he personally took Bormann's corpse from a tank. He said that Bomann died because of the explosion oh a grenade that hit the tank.
His story matched fairly well Axmann and Kempka declarations.