Anschluss

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
history1
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Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 04 Jan 2020 15:29

ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 10:39
[...] They were not barred because of the danger that they would vote no ( most people that could vote no were allowed to vote ) but because their presence in the polling stations would create incidents who would be reported by the foreign press :
You swallowed Nazi propaganda entirely. That´s like them deporting political dissidents of the Nazis into concentration camps as "Schutzhäftling/for protective custody" to prevent them from harm by Nazi followers
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 10:39
antisemitism was very strong in Austria and there was already a pogrom before the referendum .
[...]
A pogrom executed by whom? The illegal Nazis who did terrorize Austria from east to west with their assasinations and murder?

history1
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Location: Austria

Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 04 Jan 2020 15:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Dec 2019 14:20
Hi ljadw,

So, you contend that all the ballot rigging, one-sided propaganda, distorted ballot papers, lack of a secret ballot, intimidation, barring of hundreds of thousands of voters, military occupation by several hundred thousand German soldiers, arrest of tens of thousands of opponents by 40,000 imported police, false counts, etc., etc., made absolutely no difference to the Nazi plebiscite result?

This is patently ridiculous!

[...]
Cheers,

Sid.
:thumbsup:

history1
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Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 04 Jan 2020 15:54

ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
[...]
And, why are you always talking about a free and fair referendum ? This was an impossibility ,even if the nazis wanted it .
Even unaware that it was exactly them who did prevent a free and fair referendum. How can that be?
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
[...] The choice in both elections was between an independent Austria, that most people considered as non viable, ruled by a dictator who brought only misery and an Austria that would be a part of a big German Empire, the dream since 100 years from the majority of the Austrians, ruled by an Austrian dictator who had brought prosperity in Germany .
The 100 year dream of Austrians and an Austrian dictator! ROFL!
When the majority of Austrians would have had such dream it shoulnd´t be too difficult for your to provide a couple examples from 1840 - 1890 which do support your claim. Good luck!
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
The real results are not difficult to guess .
[...] the nazis did not need to falsify the results ,there was no general order from Berlin to falsify the results .
But without doubt someone saw a need to intimade the voters.
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
The decision of Schuschnigg to hold a referendum was a proof of weakness, and the voters are as the rats : they leave the sinking ship .
And you´re the born martyr who wouldn´t mind to get deported within the next weeks while knowing that your family would be outlawed and get no support whatsoever. Right the contrary they would have to try to support you instead sitting in a damn dark prison or concentration camp. I bet you don´t have either a clue about the power of the Gestapo.
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
The decision of Hitler to hold a referendum was a proof of strength : to convince people outside Germany that the Anschluss was supported by the Austrian people .
Using intimidation and other foul tactics is sure a sign of strenght. LOL

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jan 2020 16:12

history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 15:29
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 10:39
[...] They were not barred because of the danger that they would vote no ( most people that could vote no were allowed to vote ) but because their presence in the polling stations would create incidents who would be reported by the foreign press :
You swallowed Nazi propaganda entirely. That´s like them deporting political dissidents of the Nazis into concentration camps as "Schutzhäftling/for protective custody" to prevent them from harm by Nazi followers
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 10:39
antisemitism was very strong in Austria and there was already a pogrom before the referendum .
[...]
A pogrom executed by whom? The illegal Nazis who did terrorize Austria from east to west with their assasinations and murder?
The presence of Jews and well known opponents of the new regime would result in serious incidents : there was the danger that they would be lynched, what would not be good propaganda for the nazis. That's why they were barred from voting .
The pogrom of March/April 1938 was not executed by the ,now NO LONGER illegal, nazis only, but also by the whole Austrian population: anti-semitism was stronger in Austria than in Germany .
I expected from an Austrian some basic knowledge about the Anschluss. I see that you don't possess it .
Theoretically it would have been possible for the Nazis to allow Jews to vote ( most would have voted yes ) and after the referendum expel
them from Austria .The German Jews lost their right to vote in 1935 (Nuremberg Laws ), Austrian Jews lost these rights immediately .

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jan 2020 16:19

history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 15:54
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
[...]
And, why are you always talking about a free and fair referendum ? This was an impossibility ,even if the nazis wanted it .
Even unaware that it was exactly them who did prevent a free and fair referendum. How can that be?
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
[...] The choice in both elections was between an independent Austria, that most people considered as non viable, ruled by a dictator who brought only misery and an Austria that would be a part of a big German Empire, the dream since 100 years from the majority of the Austrians, ruled by an Austrian dictator who had brought prosperity in Germany .
The 100 year dream of Austrians and an Austrian dictator! ROFL!
When the majority of Austrians would have had such dream it shoulnd´t be too difficult for your to provide a couple examples from 1840 - 1890 which do support your claim. Good luck!
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
The real results are not difficult to guess .
[...] the nazis did not need to falsify the results ,there was no general order from Berlin to falsify the results .
But without doubt someone saw a need to intimade the voters.
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
The decision of Schuschnigg to hold a referendum was a proof of weakness, and the voters are as the rats : they leave the sinking ship .
And you´re the born martyr who wouldn´t mind to get deported within the next weeks while knowing that your family would be outlawed and get no support whatsoever. Right the contrary they would have to try to support you instead sitting in a damn dark prison or concentration camp. I bet you don´t have either a clue about the power of the Gestapo.
ljadw wrote:
31 Dec 2019 16:35
The decision of Hitler to hold a referendum was a proof of strength : to convince people outside Germany that the Anschluss was supported by the Austrian people .
Using intimidation and other foul tactics is sure a sign of strenght. LOL
Neither Schuschnigg ,neither the nazis could organise a free referendum, Schuschnigg because he would lose it , the nazis because a free referendum would also mean free elections ,which would mean the end of dictatorship .Schuschnigg had even avoided between 1933 and 1938 to organise non free elections . The fact that he decided suddenly to organise rigged elections proved that he had no other solution to save his regime : the army,nor the populatrion was willing to fight for him .
There was no need to intimidate the voters, but the nazis took no risks .

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jan 2020 16:50

history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 15:54

The 100 year dream of Austrians and an Austrian dictator! ROFL!
When the majority of Austrians would have had such dream it shoulnd´t be too difficult for your to provide a couple examples from 1840 - 1890 which do support your claim. Good luck!
[
You, an Austrian, you never heard of Georg von Schönerer, and his influence on Hitler ? You never heard of Karl Hermann Wolf ?Of Viktor Adler, who, notwithstanding being Jewish, supported an Anschluss to Germany ,and whose son Friedrich Adler continnued to support the Anschluss even after WWII ?
The Grossdeutsche Gedachte was before WWI present everywhere in Austria in all political parties, it was supported by intellectuals,by workers by socialists, by conservatives, by catholics, by Jews,...
It was the same in Germany : from Engels to the far right .

history1
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Location: Austria

Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 04 Jan 2020 19:26

ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
[...]
The pogrom of March/April 1938 was not executed by the ,now NO LONGER illegal, nazis only, but also by the whole Austrian population:
So you claim that the whole Austrian population did participate in a single pogrom? Dude, seek help before it´s too late!
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
anti-semitism was stronger in Austria than in Germany .
That´s why countless Jews from Galicia and Polish areas moved to Vienna before. ROFL
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
I expected from an Austrian some basic knowledge about the Anschluss. I see that you don't possess it .
Says the guy calling Hitler an Austrian ruling Nazi Germany. :lol: :lol: :lol:
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
Theoretically it would have been possible for the Nazis to allow Jews to vote ( most would have voted yes ) and after the referendum expel them from Austria .
Don´t talk about things you know nothing - very little about. Expelled Jews? Where!?
Where to should they have expelled the Jews? Ever heared about the Evian Conference? Does the "Kindertransporte" and their background regulations by the UK ring a bell?
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
The German Jews lost their right to vote in 1935 (Nuremberg Laws ), Austrian Jews lost these rights immediately .
And you wonder? Me not, this wasn´t the only German laws which got immedially installed in Austria then.

history1
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Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 04 Jan 2020 19:32

ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:50
history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 15:54

The 100 year dream of Austrians and an Austrian dictator! ROFL!
When the majority of Austrians would have had such dream it shoulnd´t be too difficult for your to provide a couple examples from 1840 - 1890 which do support your claim. Good luck!
[
You, an Austrian, you never heard of Georg von Schönerer, and his influence on Hitler ? You never heard of Karl Hermann Wolf ?Of Viktor Adler, who, notwithstanding being Jewish, supported an Anschluss to Germany ,and whose son Friedrich Adler continnued to support the Anschluss even after WWII ?
The Grossdeutsche Gedachte was before WWI present everywhere in Austria in all political parties, it was supported by intellectuals,by workers by socialists, by conservatives, by catholics, by Jews,...
It was the same in Germany : from Engels to the far right .
I asked you to provide examples/evidence that THE MAJORITY OF AUSTRIANS DID DREAM SINCE 100 YEARS THAT AUSTRIA WOULD BE PART OF GERMANY That´s what you claimed. Not for a handful men who supported this idea.

And please explain what a " Grossdeutsche Gedachte" is. I can´t understand it.

ljadw
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jan 2020 22:11

history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 19:26
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
[...]
The pogrom of March/April 1938 was not executed by the ,now NO LONGER illegal, nazis only, but also by the whole Austrian population:
So you claim that the whole Austrian population did participate in a single pogrom? Dude, seek help before it´s too late!
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
anti-semitism was stronger in Austria than in Germany .
That´s why countless Jews from Galicia and Polish areas moved to Vienna before. ROFL
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
I expected from an Austrian some basic knowledge about the Anschluss. I see that you don't possess it .
Says the guy calling Hitler an Austrian ruling Nazi Germany. :lol: :lol: :lol:
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
Theoretically it would have been possible for the Nazis to allow Jews to vote ( most would have voted yes ) and after the referendum expel them from Austria .
Don´t talk about things you know nothing - very little about. Expelled Jews? Where!?
Where to should they have expelled the Jews? Ever heared about the Evian Conference? Does the "Kindertransporte" and their background regulations by the UK ring a bell?
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:12
The German Jews lost their right to vote in 1935 (Nuremberg Laws ), Austrian Jews lost these rights immediately .
And you wonder? Me not, this wasn´t the only German laws which got immedially installed in Austria then.
Hitler was an Austrian, he became German only in 1932 . I know that some Austrians are saying that Hitler was a German and Beethoven an Austrian . Of course they joked. I hope .
In March 1938 there were 192000 Jewish Austrians , in December 1939 only 57000 remained in Austria ,thus do not say that the Germans could not expel them.

ljadw
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Posts: 10139
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jan 2020 22:28

history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 19:32
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 16:50
history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 15:54

The 100 year dream of Austrians and an Austrian dictator! ROFL!
When the majority of Austrians would have had such dream it shoulnd´t be too difficult for your to provide a couple examples from 1840 - 1890 which do support your claim. Good luck!
[
You, an Austrian, you never heard of Georg von Schönerer, and his influence on Hitler ? You never heard of Karl Hermann Wolf ?Of Viktor Adler, who, notwithstanding being Jewish, supported an Anschluss to Germany ,and whose son Friedrich Adler continnued to support the Anschluss even after WWII ?
The Grossdeutsche Gedachte was before WWI present everywhere in Austria in all political parties, it was supported by intellectuals,by workers by socialists, by conservatives, by catholics, by Jews,...
It was the same in Germany : from Engels to the far right .
I asked you to provide examples/evidence that THE MAJORITY OF AUSTRIANS DID DREAM SINCE 100 YEARS THAT AUSTRIA WOULD BE PART OF GERMANY That´s what you claimed. Not for a handful men who supported this idea.
[ quote ]
No you did not ask this .
You asked me to provide a couple of exemples, I give you three of them, which is more than a couple .
Viktor Adler was the chief of the Austrian socialists, and a supporter of the Anschluss. And he collaborated on the Linz program that called for a ruthless Germanisation of non German parts of Austria .
And you never heard of what the Austrian government proposed in 1850 ? Gross Österreich = a union of all German states dominated by Austria

DavidFrankenberg
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Location: Earth

Re: Anschluss

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 05 Jan 2020 00:26

history1 wrote:
04 Jan 2020 14:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
25 Dec 2019 00:45
[...]
Come on... You know history :
Later plebiscites in Tyrol and Salzburg in 1921, where majorities of 98,77%[5] and 99,11%[6] voted for a unification with Germany, showed that it was also backed by the population.

Although there were irregularities, LIFE in 1938 acknowledged that the results of the referendum and its German counterpart were "largely honest".[8] Some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but there is no evidence that this was necessary.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Aust ... referendum
ROFL :lol: :lol: :lol:
No evidence? The Nazi terror during the time when the NSDAP was prohibited in Austria was only for the entertainment of the citzens then?
https://www.doew.at/erinnern/fotos-und- ... esterreich
And the list of casualties (only death records) from 1933 - 1938:
https://www.doew.at/erinnern/fotos-und- ... -1933-1938
And the intimidating SA and SS members and other Nazi officials present at the poll were also just because they had not anything better to do in their sparetime? And why was there no secret poll with vooting boths?
BTW, as far as I know were also only people of German or people of other aryan (artverwandt) blood allowed to vote. So Frankenberg can count the Jews off in his rigged poll.
Following your own link, i can see nazis didnt kill anybody in Vienna since 1935...

What's your point ?

The referendum was recognized internationally at the time as having been organized without fraud.

history1
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Location: Austria

Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 05 Jan 2020 11:13

ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 22:11
[...] Hitler was an Austrian, he became German only in 1932.
So why do you falsely claim then that an Austrian did rule Nazi Germany when Hitler had German citizenship before his/the NSDAP raise of power? Without doubt he was a German already when he was the Führer and Reichskanzler. Otherwise he couldn´t have been in Germany´s leadings politics/positions.
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 22:11
I know that some Austrians are saying that Hitler was a German and Beethoven an Austrian . Of course they joked. I hope.
Some? Only uneducated fools would/do deny that Hitler was a German when he gained power in 1933 in Germany.
ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 22:11
In March 1938 there were 192000 Jewish Austrians , in December 1939 only 57000 remained in Austria ,thus do not say that the Germans could not expel them.
You seem unaware that "expelling someone" is not the same as "to deport people".

history1
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Location: Austria

Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 05 Jan 2020 11:29

ljadw wrote:
04 Jan 2020 22:28
[...]
No you did not ask this .
You asked me to provide a couple of exemples, I give you three of them, which is more than a couple .[...]
ROFL.
This is what I wrote as you claimed before that the MAJORITY OF AUSTRIANS did dream for already 100 years in 1938 that Austria would be a part of Germany!
The 100 year dream of Austrians and an Austrian dictator! ROFL!
When the majority of Austrians would have had such dream it shouldn´t be too difficult for your to provide a couple examples from 1840 - 1890 which do support your claim. Good luck!
YOUR claim was that the majority of Austrians did have such dream, not that a handful men had such plans.
It´s obvious that you can´t provide such evidence as it´s absolute BS.
You seem also not to know that "a couple of examples" does not necessarily mean "two". :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/couple

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 05 Jan 2020 11:40

That Hitler had German citizenship,did not prevent the Austrian population to consider him as Austrian . Besides,when Hitler announced the Anschluss he was speaking of '' meine heimat ''.Ich melde vor der deutschen Geschichte nunmehr den Eintritt meiner Heimat in das Deutsche Reich .He did not say : den Eintritt von Österreich, but : den Eintritt meiner Heimat .
Expelling and deporting are factual the same . You can't expel someone without deporting him and you can't deport some one without expelling him .

history1
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Posts: 3700
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Location: Austria

Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 05 Jan 2020 11:45

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
05 Jan 2020 00:26
[...] Following your own link, i can see nazis didnt kill anybody in Vienna since 1935...
What's your point ?
That doesn´t mean that people in Vienna didn´t knew about the Nazi terror nor that they were not intimated by their murder/assassinations.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
05 Jan 2020 00:26
The referendum was recognized internationally at the time as having been organized without fraud.
Who cared seriously about a referendum at the time which didn´t affect themself?
Already in 1934 US newspapers published articles about Nazi dissidents which got deported into the concentration camp Dachau. (And what a concentration camp is everyone knew at the time! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_van_Zyl)
And though in 1938 during the Evian Conference no one was willed to offer help for persecuted Jews and other people belonging to the Nazi opposition. This explains a lot. Namely about people not caring for the pain/distress resp. the proceedings in other countries.

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