Anschluss

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ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 05 Jan 2020 12:45

More than 130000 Jewish Austrians succeeded to leave, voluntarily, forced, Austria between the Anschluss and December 1939 . 30000 arrived in the USA ,ans as Austria had no harbours, this means that they had to pass through other countries before arriving in the USA .Thus the argument of the Evian conference is false .The c onference had little or no influence on the situation of Jews in Europe .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Jan 2020 17:09

Hi ljadw,

You posted, "The presence of Jews and well known opponents of the new regime would result in serious incidents: there was the danger that they would be lynched, what would not be good propaganda for the nazis. That's why they were barred from voting."

So your latest contention is that the German Nazis, (whose tender care of the Jewish minority in the Alt Reich was, of course, already a shining example of human decency?), withdrew the right of Austrian Jew to vote, in a noble effort to prevent the threatened Jewish population of Austria from being murdered at the polling stations by Austrian Nazi thugs? (I wonder why they didn't just tell the Austrian Nazis to keep their coshes and knuckle dusters in their pockets for the day?)

You will forgive me if I express just a teeny, weeny bit of scepticism at this proposition, given all that followed.

Your evidence for a level of higher minded German Nazi motivation in this case is what, exactly?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 06 Jan 2020 19:38

If you would look at the pictures of Jews forced to clean up the streets ,while other Austrians ( mostly not Nazis )were laughing at them , you would know that the voters at the polling stations would not admit the presence of a Jew .
It was not a level of higher minded nazi motivation ,it was an attempt to avoid embarassing situations ( embarassing for the Nazis ).
What happened in Austria between the arrival of the Germans and the referendum ,happened in Germany only in November 1938 ( Kristallnacht ) .
Vienna, where most Jews lived,swarmed with foreign journalists and the last thing the nazis wanted were pictures of Jews who were beaten/lynched at the polling stations .
The Jews were not barred because they could vote no, a very big part of them would vote yes and would show how they had voted in the illusionary hope to be spared from persecutions . A lot of people showed how they had voted, and a big part were opponents of the regime, a lot of them were spared from persecutions, but not the jews . Even if the nazis had wanted, and they did not want it, they could not : the populace was to incited and would kill every Jew they saw at the polling station.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Jan 2020 11:37

Hi ljadw,

Again, you provide absolutely no evidence for your contention; no sources, no references, nothing.

Austrians smiling in the background of a few photos of Jews in suits being forced by Nazi thugs to scrub the streets on their hands and knees (a fair bit worse than your bland "forced to clean the streets"), is not evidence that they would have lynched them at the ballot box.

You say, ".....the populace was to incited and would kill every Jew they saw at the polling station." Incited by who? When? Why? How? What was this mysterious, nationally-coordinated, force whose powers over the population was so great that even the Nazis couldn't restrain?

You seem to be advancing a most unusual proposition: That the Nazis had to protect Austrian Jews from mass lynching by a force greater than themselves. The conventional proposition is that the Nazis were all powerful at the time and were themselves the threat to the Jews.

What do you know that we don't?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 07 Jan 2020 12:33

Where do I say that the nazis wanted to protect the Austrian Jews? They had no objections against the persecution of Austrian Jews,as long as it did not happen in the front of the cameras of the International press .
the situation in Austria for the Jews was worse, much worse than in Germany : there are no pictures of German Jews forced to scrub the streets:
BTW The Austrian Jews were not forced by the nazis to scrub the street but by the Austrian population : anti semitism was much, much stronger in Austria than in Germany : after 4 years of Schuschnigg dictatorship, nazis, socialists and also communists would take their revenge on the Jews, because nazis and socialists in Austria were very anti semitic .

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 07 Jan 2020 13:35

Opposed to in Germany, antisemitism was very well spread in Austria and was one of the main points of the leading political parties :
in 1919 the socialist PM of Lower Austria,proposed to expel 20000 Jewish fugitives .
Leopold Kunschak,prominent member of the catholic party ,attacked the German nazis in 1936,saying that they were too moderate .
in 1939 the catholic minister of Justice, Hueber, demand the liberation of Austria from the Jews .
Catholics and socialists attacked each other,saying that the others were infeodated to the Jews .
In 1883 there were inscriptions in Vienna with the text : Vienna, liberated in 1683 from the Turks, occupied in 1883 by the Jews .
In such an atmosphere it was unthinkabe that the Jews could vote .
Source :Antisemitismus in Österreich by Andreas Peham .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2020 13:11

Hi ljadw,

I think Kristallnacht rather blows out of the water the propositions (1) Austrian anti-Semitism was necessarily much worse than that prevailing in the Alt Reich in 1938 and (2) that the Nazis were all that reluctant for such persecutions to happen in front of the camera.

Anti-Semitism was widespread across Europe in the inter-war years. Austria only began to become exceptional in this regard after the Anschluss.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2020 18:16

There was also a Kristallnacht in Austria .And about anti-Semitism in Austria in 1938 :there were in March 1938 181000 Jews in Austria , of whom 167000 in Vienna . Between March and November 25 % of them (45000 ) were forced to leave Austria .
In January 1933 there were in Germany 525000 Jews,37000 were forced toi leave Germany in 1933 ( 7 % ) ,that's the difference .At the end of 1936 105000 had left Germany (= 20% ) after 4 years 20 % of German Jews had left Germany, in less than one year 25 % of Austrian Jews had left Austria .
And Austria was already exceptional in anti-Semitism before the Anschluss : I have given exemples of socialists and catholics who were much more radical than the Nazis : a prominent member of the party of Schuschnigg /Dolfuss said that the German Nazis were too moderate .3 years after the Anschluss the last Jews were deported from Austria under the applause of the population .Already before WWI anti-Semitism was stronger in Austria than in Germany . It was no coincidence that Hitler was an Austrian .
The first Kristallnacht happened in Austria in March 1938 .

history1
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Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 09 Jan 2020 23:32

ljadw wrote:
09 Jan 2020 18:16
There was also a Kristallnacht in Austria .And about anti-Semitism in Austria in 1938 :there were in March 1938 181000 Jews in Austria , of whom 167000 in Vienna . Between March and November 25 % of them (45000 ) were forced to leave Austria .
In January 1933 there were in Germany 525000 Jews,37000 were forced toi leave Germany in 1933 ( 7 % ) ,that's the difference .At the end of 1936 105000 had left Germany (= 20% ) after 4 years 20 % of German Jews had left Germany, in less than one year 25 % of Austrian Jews had left Austria .
It seems you dont get it in your brain that Jews were only able to flee when they found shelter in other countries. That means you can´t flee eg. to the USA when they don´t take in refugees.
And the difference is that Jews in Germany did hope that better times will come and thus didn´t immedialy flee. While in Austria the situation was different after having a look onto Germany for several years.
ljadw wrote:
09 Jan 2020 18:16
And Austria was already exceptional in anti-Semitism before the Anschluss : I have given exemples of socialists and catholics who were much more radical than the Nazis : a prominent member of the party of Schuschnigg /Dolfuss said that the German Nazis were too moderate . "
That´s why Hitler and the illegal NSDAP supporters were forced to leave Austria and join German units to gain power there. As in Austria they were thrown in camps for their deeds.
Only strange the the evil socialists didn´t invent the Final Solution when they where allegedly more anti-semtiic than the Nazis. You really sound like a PiS-sympathisant.

ljadw wrote:
09 Jan 2020 18:16
3 years after the Anschluss the last Jews were deported from Austria under the applause of the population .[...]
Bullshit. Both the time and the claimed celebration of the citizens.

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 10 Jan 2020 08:48

Wien und die Jüdische Erfahrung (Frank Stern and Barbara Eichinger )
P 57 :Mit einem Anti-Anti-Semitismus waren kaum Wählerstimmen zu gewinnen: One could not win votes if one attacked Anti-Semitism .

P 56 : Es kann kein Zufall sein dass in Österreich nach dem Anschluss so viele Wiener und Wienerinnen die NS-Machtübernahme als Zeichen verstanden,die "Lösung der Jugendfrage'' nun selbst in die Hand nehmen zu können,und nur wenige dem etwas entgegenhielten .
It was no coincidence that in Austria after the Anschluss that that many inhabitants of Vienna considered the nazi seizure of power as a sign that they could now take in their own hands the ''solution of the Jewish problem '' and that only a few did something against it .
And that in 1941 the last Jews were deported to the East under the applause of the population is not BS,but a historical fact .

history1
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Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 12 Jan 2020 20:16

ljadw wrote:
10 Jan 2020 08:48
[...] And that in 1941 the last Jews were deported to the East under the applause of the population is not BS,but a historical fact .

:lol: :lol:
The only historical fact in this case is that you have no clue about the Holocaust. You´re uneducated and ignorant and though you think you´re the mastermind here. WRONG!
Die erwähnten 45 Züge wurden in nicht einmal zwei Jahren am Wiener Aspang-Bahnhof abgefertigt, zwischen dem 15. Februar 1941 und dem 9. Oktober 1942. =
The 45 mentioned trains dispatched from Vienna´s Aspang train station in less than two years, between February 15th 1941 and October 9th 1942.
Source: http://www.nachkriegsjustiz.at/ns_verbr ... en_wrg.php

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2020 12:15

Hi ljadw,

You post, "The first Kristallnacht happened in Austria in March 1938."

As I posted above, Austria only became exceptional after the Anschluss. Prior to the Anschluss it was just one of several European states where anti-Semitic sentiments were widespread but largely repressed.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 15 Jan 2020 14:42

NO : Austria was already before the Anschluss very anti-Semitic : Lueger became mayor of Vienna in 1897,48 years before the Anschluss .Houston Chamberlain wrote his Die Grundlagen des 20.Jahrhunderts in Vienna (1899 ).
The Jewish historian Poliakov said that in 1909 Vienna was ''der hitzigsten Zentrum judenfeindlicher Hetze im deutschen Sprachbereich '' Vienna was the worst center of ant-Jewish hate speech in the German cultural world.
Ignaz Seipel, later Austrian PM, said in 1919 that the bolshevist threat was a jewish threat,in 1930 Hueber, minister of justice,demanded that Austria would be liberated from the Jews .
There were elections in 1920,and the Reichspost ( social christian ) wrote :Hinaus mit den Ostjuden .
Hannah Arendt (well-known ) wrote in 1955 : Die ''österreichische Spielart ''des Antisemitismus war vor 1933 die extremste und mächtigste in ganz Mittel-und Westeuropa .
Before 1933 the Austrian style of anti-Semitism was the most extreme and strongest of the whole of middle and western Europe .
Even the Germans were shocked by what happened in Austria after the Anschluss ( Völkischen Beobachter of April 26 1933 ) . No one was able to control the explosion of the anti-jewish hatred that had been pent-up for decennia and that now was exploding.
Source : Antisemitismus in Österreich ( Andreas Peham )

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jan 2020 15:20

Hi ljadw,

You are making my point for me. "Pent-up" and repressed mean pretty much the same thing.

It took the arrival of the Nazis in power before this was released.

You post, "No one was able to control the explosion of the anti-jewish hatred.....". Did anyone try? And, if it was uncontrolled, why was the death rate relatively low?

At the very least the Nazis created a permissive environment in Austria that had not previously existed.

Or do you believe it is pure coincidence that open pogroms against Austria's Jews broke out at the same time as the Anschluss?

Cheers,

Sid.

history1
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Re: Anschluss

Post by history1 » 15 Jan 2020 16:19

ljadw wrote:
15 Jan 2020 14:42
[...] Even the Germans were shocked by what happened in Austria after the Anschluss ( Völkischen Beobachter of April 26 1933 ) . No one was able to control the explosion of the anti-jewish hatred that had been pent-up for decennia and that now was exploding.
Source : Antisemitismus in Österreich ( Andreas Peham )
And again only lies from this uneducated being. I doubt that Andreas (whom I know in personLOL) will appreciate that his work gets misused in this way as this is not what he wrote! You´re also damaging the good reputation of our forum and spreading lies about the suffering of Austrian Jews with your claim that the last Jew got deported in Austria in 1941. Not worth to mention the nonsense you did add to this claim.

And a book title and the author isn´t a source nor does it make your fairy tale a quote. Referring to our forum rules I request that you state the source properly.
It´s more than unlikely that the Völkischer Beobachter (THE Nazi propaganda newspaper for the folk!) did cover the Anschluß of Austria in this edition. Even more I´m sure that this didn´t happen in the edition you mentioned.

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