The Reichstag Fire
- Benoit Douville
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Scott Smith wrote:
For those who believe that the Communists or the Nazis themselves started the fire I would strongly recommend that they read Tobias' book with an open mind.
To those who believe, as Caldric does, that:
I can only point out that the fire took place on February 27, 1933 and that van der Lubbe's trial did not commence until some six months later and lasted slightly over 3 more months, concluding with his death sentence on December 23, 1933, which was carried out on January 10, 1934. There was plenty of opportunity to investigate the matter and (at least according to Tobias) this was done in a reasonably thorough manner. Indeed, the police and their forensic expert followed van der Lubbe's reinactment of his actions in setting the fire and were finally convinced that it was indeed possible that he could have managed it alone.
It should not be forgotten that at this point of time Hitler had just been named Chancellor and had not yet had the opportunity to assert complete authority over the Berlin police or the German judicial system; witness the fact that the three Communist defendants who were charged with responsibility for setting the fire along with van der Lubbe were found innocent - a verdict which IMHO would not have been possible a very short time thereafter.
I suppose that this question will never be laid finally to rest for everyone, but for me Fritz Tobias has settled it once and for all. Martinus van der Lubble - poor deluded fellow that he was - was nonetheless capable of, and succeeded in, setting fire to the Reichstag all alone.
Regards, Kaschner
I quite agree. Although there is a lot of "evidence" that the Nazis (SA) started the fire at the instigation of Göring and Goebbels, in my opinion, and that of Fritz Tobias, The Reichstag Fire (G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1964) that "evidence" consisted of a wealth of obvious forgeries concocted by the Communists for their own purposes. Tobias, who in the opinion of A.J.P. Taylor (with which I concur) seems to have had no axe to grind whatsoever except in a search for the truth, IMHO argues convicingly that Marinus van der Lubbe set the fire by himself, which he consistently and repeatedly insisted upon both during the investigation and at his trial.I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that the Nazis had anything to do with the Reichstag fire beyond Hitler immediately seeing the propaganda value and capitalizing on it.
For those who believe that the Communists or the Nazis themselves started the fire I would strongly recommend that they read Tobias' book with an open mind.
To those who believe, as Caldric does, that:
They killed the guy [van der Lubbe] entirely to fast for anyone to talk to him, made it look really suspicious.
I can only point out that the fire took place on February 27, 1933 and that van der Lubbe's trial did not commence until some six months later and lasted slightly over 3 more months, concluding with his death sentence on December 23, 1933, which was carried out on January 10, 1934. There was plenty of opportunity to investigate the matter and (at least according to Tobias) this was done in a reasonably thorough manner. Indeed, the police and their forensic expert followed van der Lubbe's reinactment of his actions in setting the fire and were finally convinced that it was indeed possible that he could have managed it alone.
It should not be forgotten that at this point of time Hitler had just been named Chancellor and had not yet had the opportunity to assert complete authority over the Berlin police or the German judicial system; witness the fact that the three Communist defendants who were charged with responsibility for setting the fire along with van der Lubbe were found innocent - a verdict which IMHO would not have been possible a very short time thereafter.
I suppose that this question will never be laid finally to rest for everyone, but for me Fritz Tobias has settled it once and for all. Martinus van der Lubble - poor deluded fellow that he was - was nonetheless capable of, and succeeded in, setting fire to the Reichstag all alone.
Regards, Kaschner
Your right, and perhaps I just read it wrong I was thinking he was executed right after the fire.I can only point out that the fire took place on February 27, 1933 and that van der Lubbe's trial did not commence until some six months later and lasted slightly over 3 more months, concluding with his death sentence on December 23, 1933, which was carried out on January 10, 1934. There was plenty of opportunity to investigate the matter and (at least according to Tobias) this was done in a reasonably thorough manner. Indeed, the police and their forensic expert followed van der Lubbe's reinactment of his actions in setting the fire and were finally convinced that it was indeed possible that he could have managed it alone.
v.d.Lubbe
If anyone wants more info on Marinus v.d.L. here is a url.
Sorry it's in German, there is a auto translate feature, but it is p...-poor.
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/LubbeMarinus/
Regards. HN.
Sorry it's in German, there is a auto translate feature, but it is p...-poor.
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/LubbeMarinus/
Regards. HN.
So:
1. Apparently the NSDAP agents did not set up the incident(BTW the Leftist newspapers of 1933 threw openly the guilt on them; I'll post a few quotes from one of the most virulent Anti-"Nazi" and pro-Soviet Romanian journalists when I find his book);
2. The Communist organizations(again "apparently") did not do it;
3. M. van der Lubbe, alone or helped, was the author;
4.... but he did not work for a terrorist organization;
The conclusion being that this man did it entirely by his own initiative
Right?
~Ovidius
1. Apparently the NSDAP agents did not set up the incident(BTW the Leftist newspapers of 1933 threw openly the guilt on them; I'll post a few quotes from one of the most virulent Anti-"Nazi" and pro-Soviet Romanian journalists when I find his book);
2. The Communist organizations(again "apparently") did not do it;
3. M. van der Lubbe, alone or helped, was the author;
4.... but he did not work for a terrorist organization;
The conclusion being that this man did it entirely by his own initiative
Right?
~Ovidius
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- In memoriam
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- Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 02:17
- Location: Houston, Texas
Hi Ovidious,
IMHO Tobias in his book shows conclusively that van der Lubbe (who was indeed a Cummunist) was on a frolic and adventure all of his own, as an individual and not sponsored by any Communist or Nazi organization, and that neither the Communists (Torgler, Dimitrov and one other whose name I can't recall, who were tried with van der Lubbe and acquitted) nor the Nazis had anything to do with the burning of the Reichstag. As appendices to his book Tobias includes the purported "confessions" of members of the SA, which were manufactured by the Communists to throw guilt on the Nazis. They are phony.
Regards, Kaschner
IMHO Tobias in his book shows conclusively that van der Lubbe (who was indeed a Cummunist) was on a frolic and adventure all of his own, as an individual and not sponsored by any Communist or Nazi organization, and that neither the Communists (Torgler, Dimitrov and one other whose name I can't recall, who were tried with van der Lubbe and acquitted) nor the Nazis had anything to do with the burning of the Reichstag. As appendices to his book Tobias includes the purported "confessions" of members of the SA, which were manufactured by the Communists to throw guilt on the Nazis. They are phony.
Regards, Kaschner
Thank you.walterkaschner wrote:Hi Ovidious,
IMHO Tobias in his book shows conclusively that van der Lubbe (who was indeed a Cummunist) was on a frolic and adventure all of his own, as an individual and not sponsored by any Communist or Nazi organization, and that neither the Communists (Torgler, Dimitrov and one other whose name I can't recall, who were tried with van der Lubbe and acquitted) nor the Nazis had anything to do with the burning of the Reichstag. As appendices to his book Tobias includes the purported "confessions" of members of the SA, which were manufactured by the Communists to throw guilt on the Nazis. They are phony.
This creature, Georgi Dimitrov, leader of the Bulgarian Communists, had been a student in Germany about that time, and one of the closest friends of the Romanian Leftist journalist I've quoted above(Petre Pandrea, 1904-1968, himself a student in Germany from 1926 to 1933 and author of an excellent book, Germania Hitlerista - "Hitlerite Germany", published in late 1933).
As a side note, Dimitrov was poisoned later by the Soviet Communists for doing a "Politically Incorrect" proposal to Stalin.
More details would be Off-Topic(and I've given my word to another member here http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... c&start=25 I won't post any political/social/strategic comments )
~Regards,
Ovidius
Reichstag Fire Theory or Poor Hypothesis
Conspiracy theorists love to look at a situation after-the-fact and then make up a scenario (after some facts are selectively overlooked), where someone profited because of an event, and then further claim they designed the entire event ahead of time, without any evidence to back the theory up. In scientific terms this is called a hypothesis because there is no evidence to back their theories up and if the evidence does exist it often disproves the hypothesis. In other words their ideas of a conspiracy would never legitimately reach the theory stage. Like for example claiming the President of the USA knew about the Japanese planned 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor ahead of time and did nothing to stop it because he wanted the USA in the war. All the known evidence indicates the president didn’t know ahead of time Pearl was going to be attacked, but conspiracy theorists love to argue he did, even though the avalanche of evidence indicates otherwise and there hypothesis is easily disproven around credible historians. Of course, US intelligence experts believed the Japanese were getting ready to strike the Philippines, but no one really considered Pearl a legitimate Japanese target on the morning of December 7, 1941. Or, some like to say the US Government planned the WTC attack on 911 in New York and of course, they have zero evidence to back their theory. Meanwhile, this brings us to the Reichstag Fire. All evidence indicates the communist set the fire himself and acted alone, and Hitler and Goring capitalized upon the event and used it as pretence to monopolize more power. Instead of giving Hitler his credit for being able to capitalize upon an event, it’s easier in some people’s mind’s to speculate he planned everything out ahead of time and then orchestrated this plot to achieve a totalitarian government because of the Reichstag Fire. I’ve got news for everyone, Hitler was eventually going to become Germany’s dictator with or without the Reichstag Fire, and it was only a question of time. He was historically moving in this direction after January 30, 1933. Meanwhile, Hitler did the same thing after the 1944 July 20th Plot when thousands were arrested and murdered afterwards. Now no one would say Hitler knew about the plot to set a bomb off under his feet (or planned the bomb himself) so he could assume more power later after the explosion. In both examples, both the Reichstag Fire and the aftermath of the July 20th Plot, he took advantage of a situation to monopolize more power and eliminated political enemies, everything else is purely conjecture on conspiracy theorists part and is supported by a complete lack of evidence.
James
James
Reichstag Fire
Just like one person, two people can set a fire. A fire investigation is needed to determine how it was set and possibly an admission of guilt helps too.
James
James
Interestingly, Der Spiegel reports today that the German government has retroactively invalidated the capital conviction of Marinus van der Lubbe for the Reichstag arson.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 50,00.html
Colin
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 50,00.html
Colin