Ocupied population and Wehrmacht

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simsalabim
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Post by simsalabim » 26 May 2004 10:54

Witch-King of Angmar wrote:The best relationships between German occupiers(which includes, but is not limited to, military) were in the Netherlands. .

~The Witch-King of Angmar


And this claim is based on...?

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HaEn
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Nederland

Post by HaEn » 26 May 2004 15:07

About a million 1,000,000 people were member of the N.S.B. and other N.S. organisations. In total, including NSKK, Luftwaffe helfers, etc. etc, some 50,000 men volunteered for German services. A large percentage of guest workers, who after the war (of course) claimed to have been forced to work in Germany, went there, not because they HAD TO, but because they got extra rations, and much better pay than in Holland. My Dad who worked for the railway (Nederlandse spoorwegen) was assigned for two months to work in Germany. When he came back he said that if it were not for his beliefs, he would go back in a heartbeat. And . . for the first time, in a long time, we had some money to spend. :)
The whole thing was as I said before, VERY embarrassing to the Dutch "run-away-and-return-when-it-was-safe-again", government. Hence all numbers were played down. :( HN.

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Re: Nederland

Post by simsalabim » 26 May 2004 19:15

HaEn wrote:About a million 1,000,000 people were member of the N.S.B. and other N.S. organisations. In total, including NSKK, Luftwaffe helfers, etc. etc, some 50,000 men volunteered for German services. A large percentage of guest workers, who after the war (of course) claimed to have been forced to work in Germany, went there, not because they HAD TO, but because they got extra rations, and much better pay than in Holland. My Dad who worked for the railway (Nederlandse spoorwegen) was assigned for two months to work in Germany. When he came back he said that if it were not for his beliefs, he would go back in a heartbeat. And . . for the first time, in a long time, we had some money to spend. :)
The whole thing was as I said before, VERY embarrassing to the Dutch "run-away-and-return-when-it-was-safe-again", government. Hence all numbers were played down. :( HN.


Interesting, taking into account that in the 1940's the total population of the Netherlands was about 6 million people.
HaEn, I know you still can read dutch:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaal_ ... e_Beweging

Bij de Statenverkiezingen in 1935 haalde de NSB 8% van de stemmen: bij de verkiezingen voor de Tweede Kamer twee jaar later was de aanhang al weer gedaald tot 4%. Dit had alles te maken met de nieuwe koers die onder Rost van Tonningen was ingezet en waardoor de aanhang in snel tempo afnam. Ook werd het verboden voor ambtenaren om lid te zijn van de NSB en voerde de regering een anti-NSB campagne.

Tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog steeg het aantal leden tot ongeveer 100.000.



In English:


During the provincial state elections in 1935, the NSB managed 8% of the votes. For the elections for Parliament this percentage dropped to 4%. This mainly had to do with the new line set in by Rost van Tonningen, that caused a rapid decline in support. Also it was for forbidden for civil servants to be a member of the NSB, the government led an anti-NSB campaign. During WW2 membership rose to about 100.000

According to Edwin Meinsma's site http://www.waffen-ss.nl/main.php membership of the Waffens-SS was about 20.000. It's quite uncertain that membership of other para-military organisations rose to the numbers you claim.

Of course a lot of people worked in Germany (one of which was my grandfather who BTW never got into trouble because of this), but you can't deny that a lot more did go not quite volontary.

Your claim that 'numbers were played down' doesn't match with post-war reports, who rather suggest that active punishment of all collabaration (active and mostly passive, the latter I think is to some extent understandable) could result into more trouble than could be afforded.

Remember, of the Western occupied countries the Netherlands took the most damage of all, and the 'Wederopbouw', the 'Re-building' of the nation took more priority.

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HaEn
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numbers

Post by HaEn » 27 May 2004 01:28

Sim !. We will be going around in circles; so here is what I personally remember. The Netherlands had an approximate population of 10 million in 1940, we learned at the Montessori MULO during WWII. During that war when Germany seemed to be winning, the number of wannabees rose to about 10% of the population, i.e. 1 million. (when they were losing suddenly many never had had anything to do with them :wink: ) The 20,000 volunteers you were referring to were the volunteers for the Waffen SS. And . . .even that number is thrown back and forth by historians to fit THEIR particular point of view. The count for the SS freiwilligen from the Netherlands goes between a high of about 40,000 and a low (much more politically expedient 8) ) of 20,000.
Add to this the many who served in the NSKK, Nerlandse ambulance, Flak, Kriegsmarine, Polizei (dutch and german), Wach und Schutzdienst and Landwacht, and you get pretty close.
Anyway, actulally it does not matter anymore. it's over, we lost, back to life !. Groetjes vanuit Indianenland HN.

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Post by Landser » 27 May 2004 03:28

This is a personal story about a Dutchman who was in the Waffen-SS
but got discharged in 1943 and then worked as a civilian for my neighbors Transportation Company as yard manager.This was all happening in Poland where he and a Pole oversaw about 25 Polish workers, mostly truck drivers and others.He spoke rather good German and some Polish which he picked up pretty fast of all the girls he made happy.He was very tall and blond and used it to his advantage.

In 45 he and some of our neighbors, we fled westwards in a truck he drove. We first ended up in Austria where he found this widow and married her shortly after.
By wars end we all came to Germany where he raised his family (2kids).
Later in 47 he followed his parents call and moved back to Haarlem with the clan.One night after 2 weeks he did get arrested right out his bed and was interned right away.For 3 month the family was kept in the dark about his where abouts or the charges.Through some other internee who was allowed to write home, the family was informed about his plight.
After 9 month then he was suddenly discharged but only lived a few weeks after wards and died of malnutrition and wounds he encountered while being incarcerated.The reason for being interned was mostly for symphatizing with the enemy, amongst other charges.He was never tried or convicted of anything.
This is the story in the rough as I remember my mother telling me after she spoke to his widow in 1949 while on their way to Austria
after she and the kids where forced to leave Holland.
I do have their names but I will not publizise them with out their consent.

simsalabim
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Re: numbers

Post by simsalabim » 27 May 2004 07:56

Haen, I stand corrected:

According to: http://wereldwijs.malmberg.nl/secure/ni ... 2/art7.htm

population was around 9 million. The point of pro-german volonteers is not on topic here, but we can ask Edwin Meinsma about this. Enjoy your life in 'Injun' land.

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HaEn
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Re: numbers

Post by HaEn » 27 May 2004 14:30

simsalabim wrote:Haen, I stand corrected:

According to: http://wereldwijs.malmberg.nl/secure/ni ... 2/art7.htm

population was around 9 million. The point of pro-german volonteers is not on topic here, but we can ask Edwin Meinsma about this. Enjoy your life in 'Injun' land.


"No sweat"! or as they say in Latin: "'nihil persperandum" :)
My old world atlas also mentions 10 million as a population during the 40's.
Again, it's not very important anymore. And yes, I will enjoy myself (as far as possible at my age) in the land of Old Shatterhand and Winnetou :wink: HN

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Landser
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Post by Landser » 27 May 2004 15:16

He,he..
in the land of Old Shatterhand and Winnetou HN


I suppose that is ment for European's consumption only.

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HaEn
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Post by HaEn » 28 May 2004 00:49

Landser wrote:He,he..
in the land of Old Shatterhand and Winnetou HN


I suppose that is ment for European's consumption only.

Those were the key persons in Karl May's books about the American old West, which he all wrote while in a German prison in the 20's or so.
Quite a writer ! even A.H. supposedly was fascinated bu his books.
Later he switched to Arabia, not quite as well written. HN.

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Post by szopen » 28 May 2004 14:27

Landser wrote: of all the girls he made happy.He was very tall and blond and used it to his advantage.


he made girls happy? Come one. Most of Polish girls working as slave labourers were chronically mistreated and underfed. If some girl is selling herself because she is hungry or because out of fear, then he practically raped her.

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Post by Landser » 28 May 2004 16:19

szopen wrote:
Landser wrote: of all the girls he made happy.He was very tall and blond and used it to his advantage.


he made girls happy? Come one. Most of Polish girls working as slave labourers were chronically mistreated and underfed. If some girl is selling herself because she is hungry or because out of fear, then he practically raped her.



Ah,ha...

How would you know,besides listen to some propaganda?

I lived for 4 years amongst Poles
I did not see any overfed and certainly not underfed ones and that was not far from Posen. Everyone lived on rations which were a lot more than what was given after the war.

And this B/S about misusing Polish girls,is just another myth. You might be confusing your liberators actions in this case.Anyway rape or looting was a no no,and punished severely when caught, after all disciplin was always on the top agenda.And Polish girls acted no different from other species,when nature calls THEY responded without
much coercion.And I don't believe he ever had to pay for his pleasures.

Wherever the slaves or mistreated were-they certainly were not in the region I was.The only thing I did'n like was the separations implemented between the different Nationalities.I would have not minded being a Pole during that time.At least they were never called up for military duty.
Last edited by Landser on 28 May 2004 16:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by szopen » 28 May 2004 16:57

>How would you know,besides listen to some propaganda?

By listening to my grandparents and other odler people?

From my grandfather's friends which were caught on the streets and send to work as slave labourers many never returned to their home, and others returned with health so broken that they never recovered. My own grandfather survived in good health, mainly because he was send to family in Bavaria, which treated him as human, not as animal - as was standard more to the north. He never applied for recompensation, although his wife married after the war (not my grandmother, second wife) was trying to push him for that...

As for that "Germans were no rapers" then it's a myth. For example they were kidnapping firls from the streets and were forcing them to work as prostitutes. I would call it state institutioned rape.

>Wherever the slaves or mistreated were-they certainly were not in the >region I was.The only thing I did'n like was the separations implemented >between the different Nationalities.I would have not minded being a Pole >during that time.At least they were never called up for military duty.

Come on! HUndreds of thousands Poles expelled from their homes, with their property confiscated. Beating Poles. Forcing them to sign Volkslista and them sending them to the front immedietely (so much for no military service). Catching in the streets and sending to Germany as slave labourers. Random shooting them as hostages. You wouldn't mind to be Pole?! Definetely, you had to be blind. Especially if you are educated men - thousands of teachers, professors, lawyers, doctors were shot in 1939/40 just becuase they were educated.

Add to that things, which my grandmother rembered best - strangely it was not the hunger or beating, but behaviour of neighbours's children, which after the 1939 campaign stopped to play with her, wore HJ uniforms and were spitting on her and her fathers, and they had to thank for that.

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Post by Landser » 28 May 2004 17:28

Szopan

If this is what you believe than be happy!

If I was'nt there for all that time I might be inclined to eat up all this horror.BUT I know better.

Besides I still am in contact with Wanja's family and kids,who was a playmate of mine and neighbor amongst others.To bad Wanja died a couple of years back,but his younger son and 3 other grand children with families of his, are all working in the Rheingau region.They have moreless seddled there after jobs were arranged for them,and as Wanja said in 1998 on my visit,"I know what went on, this modern history teachings fool some but not everyone,sure we were oppressed but most of it has been exaggerated" according to him.

BTW Since you brought up slave prostitudes,I was just wondering how you explain the vast existance of Polish prostitutes in Western Europe (mostly in Ger.) Were they also picked up indiscriminatly or starvation drove them to this trade? Or could it be they plain love their "jobs" ???

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Post by szopen » 01 Jun 2004 07:40

Landser wrote:Szopan

If this is what you believe than be happy!

If I was'nt there for all that time I might be inclined to eat up all this horror.BUT I know better.



My family was also through whole of this. If you haven't seen what was happening you were blind.

BTW Since you brought up slave prostitudes,I was just wondering how you explain the vast existance of Polish prostitutes in Western Europe (mostly in Ger.) Were they also picked up indiscriminatly or starvation drove them to this trade? Or could it be they plain love their "jobs" ???


Or could it be because Western companies are advertising themselves as offering jobs and then they confiscating docuemtns of naive Polish girls and force them to that work? There is such affair every year in Poland - every year government is issuing how to differentiate honest offers of work from "fake jobs" and it seems that some people will never learn...
What's surprise me most is that nobody in West really cares about that.

Friend of my friend would almost be kidnapped that way. She was packed and happy that she will work as babysitter in England, when there was affair in TV and she find out that the name of the company she was preparing to work was one of mentioned in TV document..

Of course, there are girls who do it voluntarily. So? So are German girls.

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Post by cromag » 01 Jun 2004 13:15

I think it certainly was not Holland, but my country Belgium that had the highest number of Collaborators during the German occupation. When the NSDAP came on the political scene in ’33 allot of political groups also became active in Belgium.

When the war started Belgium tried to defend his borders but had to capitulate, the government fled the country (cowardly act) but the king stayed with his people.

A few example’s: DEVLAG (Deutch – vlamichen arbeids gemeinchaft) VNV, DM, Zwarte Brigade ZB (black brigade) etc etc etc.

They took the opportunity in hope of getting future support from the nazi party for their struggle against the Belgian French: during the early to mid 1900, French was the main language in Belgium, there were allot of groups trying to stop that and re-establish the Felmisch as the main language, also you were discriminated when you did not speak French, example: is many cases u would be refused medical help in hospitals if you could not speak French.

So after the German invasion those groups immediately seized the opportunity to gain strength from the German army and they collaborated with them. Later during the war there were also Fighting divisions formed from Belgian volunteers like the Belgian Factory Guard (who defended German airfields, lagers etc) the waffen SS (later reformed as langemarck division, many got send to the east-front), the Belgian FLAK devision… all were either part of the luft-gau as a whermachts gefolge or the SS-flanders.

The Flemish SS became notorious and feared for their actions against fellow Belgians, in one of the most famous prison camps (fort breendonk), almost all the guards and personnel were Flemisch SS.

Like everywhere you had collaboration in all forms, volunteers for the army, economical collaboration, political, passive, active etc.

But you had allot of resistance, certainly when the German’s created a second front with Russia and their presence weakened as more troops were sent to the eastern fronts.

Its normal that there is collaboration, many seek power, others need food to survive, and in general everyone must do what they have to do in order to survive, its hard to comprehend what it was like in 1940 to be in a militarised zone, under occupation.
One of the few really black marks during the occupations was the conduct of certain elements of the Belgian SS against their own citizens.

Anyhow that’s about a REALY short version of the occupation here in my country, the collaboration is a web of intrigues and men in the shadows, most of them already thought that Germany had won the war and would stay, so they thought of doing a good job by joining the army, after the war most of them were arrested during the reprisals.

Never assume that there was an occupied country were all people were best friend with the invaders, then they would not call it a war or an occupation now would they? :)

Even when there was a lot of collaboration or the germans had high regards for the country there were still allot of people sent to prison, deported to camps, and deported to Germany to work in the industry or on farms.

The occupation was hard for most, prosperous for others.

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