Ocupied population and Wehrmacht

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Madsen
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Post by Madsen » 01 Jun 2004 20:35

Bjørn from Norway wrote:Hello HaEn!
The Dutch situation you describe, is very close to the Norwegian as well. The NS party, which was post-war described as "a tiny miniature party" had in fact close to 60 000 members. About 15000 volunteered to the SS, app. 6000 were granted. But, when counting in those serving in TeNo, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kriegsmarine, SS Wachbatallion 6, Transportflotte Speer etc, one can get a figure close to 50 000.
Baldwiking gives otherwise a very good description of the situation during the occupation.

B

Hi Bjørn. the NS party was a mini party. 60000 yes but how many of them was in NS just to could continue their "normal" lives? of course i know there were many nazis in NS but there was also normal policemen who had to be in the party to keep their jobs, and several other branches had to do the same, otherways they would be removed and replaced by nazi friendly people.
And for all the SS And other german forces , many join there to fight against Sovjet. In Norway (and Sweden ) they have allways feared Russia . When norway became a independent country in 1905 they have to "main enemys" Sweden (wich they almost had a war with in 1905)who they fought many wars against and Russia. the BIG guy in east.
So when Sovjet invaded Finland in 1939 there was fear amongst many that Sweden and Norway would be next. and many norwegians voulenteers to fight for Finland. many more voulenteer for germany to fight against sovjet wich they saw as a greater enemy than the german.

I've spoken to several veterans about the norwegian SS troops and one goy told me that he could understand them in one way, he also had that fear about russia. But he couldnt forgive they for joining up with the enemy after all, Germany attacked norway without reason and warning.
But as he said to the end. "thats 60 years ago. long time, its time to go on"

Lobscouse
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Post by Lobscouse » 02 Jun 2004 00:02

Amen to that.

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baldviking
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Post by baldviking » 02 Jun 2004 03:01

Madsen wrote:
the NS party was a mini party. 60000 yes but how many of them was in NS just to could continue their "normal" lives?


Yes, but of those 60.000, 15.000 voluntered for military service for the germans (of which 7000 did actually serve) thus making them a highly idealistic/fanatical (chose word acording to preferences...) bunch of people. Small numbers of highly motivated people can have influence way beoynd their numbers. At least for the situation here in Trondelag some of the members were influental people in their home villages, beeing listened to by people who did not join the NS. Thus they had a base of potential power reaching outside NS.

As for you saying many (maybe even most...) joined the germans for other reasons than ideologie I agree with that. National socialism was a foggy ideologie, consisting of many conflicting parts. Russia has btw never been an enemy of Norway, neither pre 1917 nor post 1991. Sovjet, and communism, was seen as an enemy and a threat.

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Madsen
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Post by Madsen » 02 Jun 2004 16:48

sorry, meant Sovjet. after 1917..

Up here were i live there was several who joined NS to "get back" on the other people in our small comunitys. like persons that never was popular and known as troublemakers. Grinebitere in norwegian.
but 60000 members in the only legal party in the country with a population of 3 000 000 is not a big number.

Hairulfr
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Post by Hairulfr » 06 Jun 2004 11:57

Hi..
I remember a story my fathers uncle told me. He [and his wife] live, and lived, in Esbjerg during the occupation.
They were for a walk in the forest where they met a young german private. He was about 16 they say.
He was crying, missing his mother.
They talked to him and tried to comfort him.
Eventually he stopped crying, and they went on their way.
When they had gotten somewhat down the road they heard a shot.
They went back to see, and i turns out that the private had shot himself.
They were very moved as they told me the story.
Figures ofcourse, because he was a child more or less.

They situation you all describe sound similar to the one in Denmark at the time.
People didn't seek contact with the germans, most probably didn't want to, some were probably also afraid of being accused of collaboration.
The girls who slept with the occupiers were called feltmadrasser (Field Matrass), and were also hated and expelled from society (painted, beaten and so on) when the war ended. Them and their children living outside society.

My Grandfather was in the SJAR (soenderjyske artilleriregiment) previous and during the invasion. He was stationed at the border, but they were pulled back a few days prior to the invasion. I don't think he has ever forgiven the country for that one. I will ask him to tell me a bit about the war, and post it here if its interesting.

I only have few surviving relatives that can tell me about this, but sometimes funny things turn up. My grandmother (on my fathers side), now dead, had a huge collection of nazi china. Plates, teapots, plates, cups, and a kitchen chair of some sort. They were all stamped with the eagle and swastika. I don't know where all this has gone now, but i do know that her husband and his brothers stole just when the war ended. The only surviving items that I am aware of are two standard issue complete german Bayonets (I believe the correct name is S.84/98) 3rd Model for the Mauser series. My fathers uncle has the one, my father has the other, passed on to him by his father when he passed.
The on I have see is in good condition. No rust, the leather is worn.
I'll be seeing him this thursday and ill take some pictures of it, serieal numbers etc. If anyone knows anything about that.
Well, off topic i guess... Sorry
Rune

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MarXell
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Post by MarXell » 21 Jun 2004 20:52

More about the NSB on:

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/hagespraak

Marxell

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Bjørn from Norway
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Post by Bjørn from Norway » 27 Jun 2004 15:59

Hello!
Well, Madsen wrote: "the NS party was a mini party". Then there are only mini parties in Norway. The Workers Party, "Arbeiderpartiet" is the largest party in Norway ever, with NS on second place. That is when counting registred members. Of course many joined the party of opportunistic reasons, just as many have joined other parties before and after the war of the same reason. Seen away from the reasons of joining, the number of 58000-60000 still stand. Out of the 3 million population, there were infants etc too, so the number is still quite high.

As for the number of armed volunteers, I am aware there are many reasons for joining, like it was with other nations too. Still the numbers are still there. The number "7000" is for SS only; TeNo, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kriegsmarine, SS Wachbatallion 6, Transportflotte Speer etc are not counted in here. As we know, there also were non-NS members among the volunteers.

Many of the statements, that NS were such a tiny party, that the members either were school boys or mentally retarded, that the front fighters were at a mentally low point etc mostly hail from the Norwegian radio broadcasts 1940-45, and not always true.
Almost 93000 were investigated after the war. This is, seen by percentage, one of the highest number of any post war investigations compared to other europearn nations.

Interesting topic indeed!
B.

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 27 Jun 2004 16:07

Was the Nazi party biggest and in power when the Wehrmacht + Nazis entered Norway ?
I saw a movie of the pro nazi writer on tv. I had the idea nazis were welcomed to Norway ?

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baldviking
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Post by baldviking » 28 Jun 2004 22:42

Topspeed wrote:
Was the Nazi party biggest and in power when the Wehrmacht + Nazis entered Norway ?
I saw a movie of the pro nazi writer on tv. I had the idea nazis were welcomed to Norway ?


NS never gained any representatives to the Storting in any elections. Another party with similiar economic policy - Samfundspartiet - gained one representative in 1936. So they were not popular among the voters, and Vidkun Qusling was not a very chaismatic leader. But they had many members, both pre WW2 and during WW2.

No, with a few exceptions, most of the military did try to fight the invasion. The civilian population was mostly in shock, often reacting with pasivism. They did no welcome the germans, but they did not show great hostility either.

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Bjørn from Norway
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Post by Bjørn from Norway » 29 Jun 2004 12:36

Hello!
"Was the Nazi party biggest and in power when the Wehrmacht + Nazis entered Norway ?
I saw a movie of the pro nazi writer on tv. I had the idea nazis were welcomed to Norway ?"

Baldwiking really sums it up correctly. Which "pro nazi" writer do you mean?

"The nazis" were probably welcomed to Norway by some, but certainly not by NS. After 1937, those on the utterly right - at least most of them - left the NS party. They did continue their activities during the war, to Quislings discontempt.

B.

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kstdk
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Post by kstdk » 02 Jul 2004 08:23

Hello all

If you see the attached map - "Sperrgebiet" - which shows the area of Jutland which the Germans closed off as the area where the Danish population schould have special permission to travel in and out of - you wery well can emagine how the Danes felt about that !!!

Above that, the population was forcefully removed from areas, where the Germans had the most important strongpoints, such as Airfields, radarsites, and other military installations etc. etc.

I think that was the rule overall of Europe during the occupation, and the growing resistance, well - the Germans only had themselves to thank for that - popular speaking, dont you think.

Regards
Kurt
kstdk.

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 02 Jul 2004 08:27

Bjørn from Norway wrote: Which "pro nazi" writer do you mean?



B.


Were there many of them ? The one who visited Hitler. I cannot remember the name sorry. Two part TV series with good actors and spectacular backgrounds.
I could be mistaken...maybe he was a socialist with good intentions..Knut Hamsun or something..could that be him.
I cannot remember the content of the film clearly..I guess he did not like the idea Germany would occupy Norway, but he admired nazis ?!

Juke T

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magnum357
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Post by magnum357 » 30 Nov 2004 05:46

On relationships between german soldiers and local population in Russia:
the losses of civillian population in USSR because of the occupation (starvation, diseases, murdering, etc.) made 13 million 684 thousand 692 persons, whereas the Soviet Army lost 11 million 273 thousand 026 enlisted persons.

See?

Any soviet collaborator with nazis was seen as the "enemy of the nation": he/she was either shot or sent to the labor camps for 25 years.

bratello
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Post by bratello » 03 Dec 2004 11:21

On relationships between german soldiers and local population in Russia:
the losses of civillian population in USSR because of the occupation (starvation, diseases, murdering, etc.) made 13 million 684 thousand 692 persons, whereas the Soviet Army lost 11 million 273 thousand 026 enlisted persons.

See?

Any soviet collaborator with nazis was seen as the "enemy of the nation": he/she was either shot or sent to the labor camps for 25 years.

Re: 13,684,692, etc. Do not trust anybody claiming knowledge of such exact numbers when it comes to Russia (the USSR to be precise): Russians are not too good at keeping tracks. Obviously the numbers are in millions. Re: "enemy of the nation". Once again to be precise it's "enemy of the people" One did not have to collaborate with the Germans to fall into "bad guys" cathegory, it was enough to live under Germans in the occupied territories for few months to get one's passport stamped with a special stamp indicating just that with obvious consequences of having difficulties to get a job, residence permit, etc. Also most Russians liberated POW's went straight from German KZ's to GULAG, when I say "straight" I mean they arrived in Moscow to Belorussian (i.e. Western) train station, were loaded into trucks and taken across the city to Kazanski (i.e. Easten) train station, direction: Siberia. In many instances same applied to the Russian and Ukranian women who worked on German farms and factories during WW2. You're right: Collaborators were shot, hanged and sent to GULAG. There is one important thing to remember: when Germans occupied Western Europe they took away a rather comfortable way of life from Dutch, French, Belgians, etc. Same can not be said about Russia. Life under Stalin was anything but easy, so many Russians and Ukrainians (I would not not be afraid to say "millions") met Germans as liberators. I doubt same can be said about any Western European countriy. In order not to repeat here what I posted recently on the subject, I refer you to my posting of Dec 3, 2004 in "Life in the occupied Russia".

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Post by David Thompson » 03 Dec 2004 21:33

There is one important thing to remember: when Germans occupied Western Europe they took away a rather comfortable way of life from Dutch, French, Belgians, etc. Same can not be said about Russia. Life under Stalin was anything but easy, so many Russians and Ukrainians (I would not not be afraid to say "millions") met Germans as liberators.

How the Nazi occupation failed in Galicia/ Ukraine
viewtopic.php?p=431283#431283

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