Black Germans during and after WW2

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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FireFoxy
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by FireFoxy » 23 Nov 2008 00:08

colt45 wrote:
Hundreds of the African Rhineland-based soldiers intermarried with German women and raised their children as Black Germans. In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote about his plans for these "Rhineland Bastards". When he came to power, one of his first directives was aimed at these mixed-race children. Underscoring Hitler's obsession with racial purity, by 1937, every identified mixed-race child in the Rhineland had been forcibly sterilized, in order to prevent further "race polluting", as Hitler termed it.
Hans Hauck, a Black Holocaust survivor and a victim of Hitler's mandatory sterilisation program, explained in the film "Hitler's Forgotten Victims" that, when he was forced to undergo sterilisation as a teenager, he was given no anaesthetic. Once he received his sterilisation certificate, he was "free to go", so long as he agreed to have no sexual relations whatsoever with Germans.
Although most Black Germans attempted to escape their fatherland, heading for France where people like Josephine Baker were steadily aiding and supporting the French Underground, many still encountered problems elsewhere. Nations shut their doors to Germans, including the Black ones. Some Black Germans were able to eke out a living during Hitler's reign of terror by performing in Vaudeville shows, but many Blacks, steadfast in their belief that they were German first, Black second, opted to remain in Germany. Some fought with the Nazis (a few even became Lutwaffe pilots)!

http://www.kintespace.com/kp_atolbert0.html


read J.Ducan post please,why do you think the Africans run to Frace, cause for most of them it's there birth place before they went woundering to naibouring countries.The Germans did not even have a unit of African soildiers in ww1 or ww2 at all, while the germans did have units of asians and middle eastern soildiers. The German Govenment did not regonsized them as being german at all just like how they think of the jews NOT GERMAN.MY point is that just cause they were staying in Germany that does not mean there classed as Germans.
My dad came to Austraila from England in 1956 and guess what, he's still an Englishman a british subject.If ever Austrlaia and England went to war,doubt that will ever happend. It will sound something like this- What should we do with all of these British subjects living in Austraila.
During ww2 Britain's P/M Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany,these Germans are living in England and not even classed as English people.So most of those Africans staying in Germany would of been classed as French Africans cause that's were they orginginated from apart from Africa.
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Vitesse
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Vitesse » 23 Nov 2008 00:46

I don't know why I'm bothering, but anyway .....
FireFoxy wrote:The Germans did not even have a unit of African soildiers in ww1 or ww2 at all, while the germans did have units of asians and middle eastern soildiers.

During WW1, the Germans raised local troops in their African colonies for self-defence - Togoland, Cameroon, SW Africa and Tanganyika. The campaigns in Togoland and Cameroon were short, but the East African campaign lasted the whole war until November 1918. The Germans lost all their colonies - there were others in the Pacific - after the Treaty of Versailles, so it would have been very difficult for them to raise African regiments during WW2. The Asian and other "non-Aryan" troops (most of which were by no means first line units) were generally recruited from Red Army prisoners of war, who were promised a better life if they changed sides - life in the camps wasn't a bed of roses ....
FireFoxy wrote: The German Govenment did not regonsized them as being german at all just like how they think of the jews NOT GERMAN.MY point is that just cause they were staying in Germany that does not mean there classed as Germans.

Did you actually read the link I posted?
FireFoxy wrote:My dad came to Austraila from England in 1956 and guess what, he's still an Englishman a british subject.If ever Austrlaia and England went to war,doubt that will ever happend. It will sound something like this- What should we do with all of these British subjects living in Austraila.

What does that have to do with anything in this thread?
FireFoxy wrote:During ww2 Britain's P/M Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany,these Germans are living in England and not even classed as English people.So most of those Africans staying in Germany would of been classed as French Africans cause that's were they orginginated from apart from Africa.

Churchill was not in the Government in August 1939, when most of the German citizens in Britain left the country - of their own volition, but in the almost certain knowledge that war was coming. Diplomats and other leading Germans in Britain were given safe passage shortly after September 3rd in a reciprocal arrangement brokered by the Americans (IIRC) - British and French diplomats left Berlin under similar circumstances. Most Germans who remained in Britain were interned as "enemy aliens", although some were later released. But at no time did "Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany."

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FireFoxy
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by FireFoxy » 23 Nov 2008 02:26

Vitesse wrote:I don't know why I'm bothering, but anyway .....
FireFoxy wrote:The Germans did not even have a unit of African soildiers in ww1 or ww2 at all, while the germans did have units of asians and middle eastern soildiers.

During WW1, the Germans raised local troops in their African colonies for self-defence - Togoland, Cameroon, SW Africa and Tanganyika. The campaigns in Togoland and Cameroon were short, but the East African campaign lasted the whole war until November 1918. The Germans lost all their colonies - there were others in the Pacific - after the Treaty of Versailles, so it would have been very difficult for them to raise African regiments during WW2. The Asian and other "non-Aryan" troops (most of which were by no means first line units) were generally recruited from Red Army prisoners of war, who were promised a better life if they changed sides - life in the camps wasn't a bed of roses ....
FireFoxy wrote: The German Govenment did not regonsized them as being german at all just like how they think of the jews NOT GERMAN.MY point is that just cause they were staying in Germany that does not mean there classed as Germans.

Did you actually read the link I posted?
FireFoxy wrote:My dad came to Austraila from England in 1956 and guess what, he's still an Englishman a british subject.If ever Austrlaia and England went to war,doubt that will ever happend. It will sound something like this- What should we do with all of these British subjects living in Austraila.

What does that have to do with anything in this thread?
FireFoxy wrote:During ww2 Britain's P/M Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany,these Germans are living in England and not even classed as English people.So most of those Africans staying in Germany would of been classed as French Africans cause that's were they orginginated from apart from Africa.

Churchill was not in the Government in August 1939, when most of the German citizens in Britain left the country - of their own volition, but in the almost certain knowledge that war was coming. Diplomats and other leading Germans in Britain were given safe passage shortly after September 3rd in a reciprocal arrangement brokered by the Americans (IIRC) - British and French diplomats left Berlin under similar circumstances. Most Germans who remained in Britain were interned as "enemy aliens", although some were later released. But at no time did "Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany."


Honey, did i ever say 1939? Who said anything about 1939,go back and look at my post please. I know churchill came later, it proofs you guys are not reading my post at all.
Churchill sent those Germans packing half way During ww2 and if i remember correctly, Churchill trassported the Germans how the jews were transported. Why don't you watch some German and British NEEWS REELS of the ww2 era and 1940's. There actually quite good.
You know what news reels are, they are Not documentires , they are film for news at the time,oginginal news during ww2.
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Vikki » 23 Nov 2008 03:05

Firefoxy, you've been warned both about keeping your comments on topic, and about providing specific documentation for your claims. Do so, or your future posts will be removed.

~Vikki

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by FireFoxy » 23 Nov 2008 03:34

Vikki wrote:Firefoxy, you've been warned both about keeping your comments on topic, and about providing specific documentation for your claims. Do so, or your future posts will be removed.

~Vikki

Vikki , I'M sorry if i went off track, i'll keep that in mind.
This thread states Black Germans During WW2 and after.
To be a German in ww2 one needs a citzenship to be classed as one.
The jews were stripe of there citzenship in 1935, 4 years even before ww2 started.
If the jews were stripe of citzenship in 1935, Africans would of sufferd the same fate and lost there citzenship in 1935,meaning when ww2 started Africans wern't classed as black Germans when ww2 started.So technically i'm right. There's no such thing as Black Germans During and after ww2, until the white policy change. Cheers.

http://www.germannotes.com/hist_ww2.shtml

it's near the middle of the page.
If the address is not right please let me know so i can fix it for you.
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by nondescript handle » 23 Nov 2008 04:43

FireFoxy wrote:[...] The jews were stripe of there citzenship in 1935, 4 years even before ww2 started.[...]


That is wrong. The Reichsbürgergesetz made Jews de facto second class citizens by introducing a new kind of citizenship for non-Jews, but they were not "stripped of their citizenship".

FireFoxy wrote:[...] If the jews were stripe of citzenship in 1935, Africans would of sufferd the same fate and lost there citzenship in 1935 [...]

(my emphasis)

History is the science of things that actually happened. While it's reasonably logical to expect that Blacks would've been treated the same as Jews, that's actually not what has happened.

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Vikki » 23 Nov 2008 06:47

An unsourced post by Firefoxy and a reply to it were removed from the thread.

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by FireFoxy » 23 Nov 2008 08:14

Vitesse wrote:I don't know why I'm bothering, but anyway .....
FireFoxy wrote:The Germans did not even have a unit of African soildiers in ww1 or ww2 at all, while the germans did have units of asians and middle eastern soildiers.

During WW1, the Germans raised local troops in their African colonies for self-defence - Togoland, Cameroon, SW Africa and Tanganyika. The campaigns in Togoland and Cameroon were short, but the East African campaign lasted the whole war until November 1918. The Germans lost all their colonies - there were others in the Pacific - after the Treaty of Versailles, so it would have been very difficult for them to raise African regiments during WW2. The Asian and other "non-Aryan" troops (most of which were by no means first line units) were generally recruited from Red Army prisoners of war, who were promised a better life if they changed sides - life in the camps wasn't a bed of roses ....
FireFoxy wrote: The German Govenment did not regonsized them as being german at all just like how they think of the jews NOT GERMAN.MY point is that just cause they were staying in Germany that does not mean there classed as Germans.

Did you actually read the link I posted?
FireFoxy wrote:My dad came to Austraila from England in 1956 and guess what, he's still an Englishman a british subject.If ever Austrlaia and England went to war,doubt that will ever happend. It will sound something like this- What should we do with all of these British subjects living in Austraila.

What does that have to do with anything in this thread?
FireFoxy wrote:During ww2 Britain's P/M Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany,these Germans are living in England and not even classed as English people.So most of those Africans staying in Germany would of been classed as French Africans cause that's were they orginginated from apart from Africa.

Churchill was not in the Government in August 1939, when most of the German citizens in Britain left the country - of their own volition, but in the almost certain knowledge that war was coming. Diplomats and other leading Germans in Britain were given safe passage shortly after September 3rd in a reciprocal arrangement brokered by the Americans (IIRC) - British and French diplomats left Berlin under similar circumstances. Most Germans who remained in Britain were interned as "enemy aliens", although some were later released. But at no time did "Churchill order German subjects that were living in Britain to go back to Germany."


Here you go. Blacks did lose most of there things including there citzenships just has the jews did treated bad like the jews were,and they were thought to be non germans to the german goverment.Without citizenship and knowlaedge of the German government and being treated the same as the non germans jews,then what black Germans are you talking about then?

http://www.ushmm.org/reasearch/libary/b ... ent=blacks

if that does not work, go to yahoo and type in-French blacks Citizens in Germany then go to Reasearch/libary/Bibliography.
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Grisu » 23 Nov 2008 12:54

nondescript handle wrote:
FireFoxy wrote:[...] The jews were stripe of there citzenship in 1935, 4 years even before ww2 started.[...]


That is wrong. The Reichsbürgergesetz made Jews de facto second class citizens by introducing a new kind of citizenship for non-Jews, but they were not "stripped of their citizenship".


Very important point you emphasize here. May I add a question in relation to that?

As it seems (generalizing from the example of Hans-Jürgen Massaquoi), children with a White mother and a Black father would have become second-class citizens post-1935 (or later?), too.

My understanding of the legal framework for citizenship pre-1935 is that a newborn would be regarded as having the citizenship of the father, not the citizenship of he mother (cf. Janson, p. 81f.). Is it correct to assume, then, that in practice a baby born to a German mother and a non-German (e.g., Black) father would not have been considered German (such as the so-called "Rhineland Bastards", cf. Wright, p. 186)? And the other way round: If a Black woman gave birth to a baby with the father being a German citizen, the baby would have become a German citizen, right? If these speculations were correct, both Black Germans holding a full German citizenship and Black Germans not holding a German citizenship would have lived in Germany until a new legislation was created by the national socialist régime.

References:
Michelle M. Wright, Becoming Black: Creating Identity in the African Diaspora, Durham 2004.

Deborah Janson, "The Subject of Black and White: Afro-German Identity Formation in Ika Hügel-Marshall’s Autobiography Daheim unterwegs: Ein deutsches Leben", in Feminist Studies in German Literature and Culture 21 (2005), p. 62-85.

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by nondescript handle » 23 Nov 2008 14:59

Grisu wrote:[...] As it seems (generalizing from the example of Hans-Jürgen Massaquoi), children with a White mother and a Black father would have become second-class citizens post-1935 (or later?), too. [...]


With second class citizen I referred to the Staatsangehöriger vs Reichsbürger schism. I don't recall that Massaquoi elaborated on that, the only instance of institutionalized "second class status" I recall from his autobiography is his classification as "wehrunwürdig".

Grisu wrote:[...] My understanding of the legal framework for citizenship pre-1935 is that a newborn would be regarded as having the citizenship of the father, not the citizenship of he mother (cf. Janson, p. 81f.). [...]


For married couples, yes.

Regards
Mark

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Craig Artzner
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Craig Artzner » 07 Dec 2008 04:39

Here are some photos I found:

Image

Same photo posted earlier, a little darker...
Image

Image

Ethiopians and Fascists...
Image

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Craig Artzner » 07 Dec 2008 18:12

Sorry, I forgot to cite the source of these photos, I found them in a discussion thread on the (questionable and despicable, to say the least) Vanguard News Network. They came up in a random internet search. Once I get back to the computer I was using last night I can find the web address in the browser history and post a link to the thread.

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Marcus » 07 Dec 2008 21:20

It should be noted that the two photos posted above are not of Germans but non-Germans serving in the Wehrmacht.

/Marcus

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Craig Artzner
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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by Craig Artzner » 07 Dec 2008 21:39

That's correct Marcus, I should have said so.

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Re: Black Germans during and after WW2

Post by dragoner » 08 Dec 2008 03:02

They look to be different photos of the same person.

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