Black Germans during and after WW2
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Wilfried Abenaschon
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I think people mean both blacks living in Germany (such as those from the colonies, often married to Germans) and Half German/Half African children.Willab wrote:Hello,
What do you call a "black German"??? Is it possible that an African could have the German citizenship? I've always thought that it was only through blood...
Willab
In Kaiserreich and Weimar Republik it was (in fact only theoretically) possible for an African to become a german citzien. But not in 3rd Reich. After WW I the Rhineland, Saar and Palatinate were occupied by french troops. They had black soldiers from their african colonies and caribian departements, and some of them had children with german girls. So there were some Half German/African.I´m not sure how many - some hundred, some thousand? They were regarded as "Rassenschande" in 3rd Reich and a lot of them were sterilized.
During Kaiserreich it was not allowed for a german to marry an African from the colonies. Some Germans in Africa married black women, but these marriages were not regarded as legal by german state.
During Kaiserreich it was not allowed for a german to marry an African from the colonies. Some Germans in Africa married black women, but these marriages were not regarded as legal by german state.
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Wilfried Abenaschon
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- Location: UK
Never heard of these stories... Were the mothers sent to concentration camps? After all the children were not at fault of their racial crimes against the German community.
How is it now? A few years ago I saw an Arab with a German passport and I wondered how a non-German person could have the German citizenship. And there is this African guy in the German national team whom I have forgotten the name: does he have the German citizenship? How come?
Willab
How is it now? A few years ago I saw an Arab with a German passport and I wondered how a non-German person could have the German citizenship. And there is this African guy in the German national team whom I have forgotten the name: does he have the German citizenship? How come?
Willab
The so-called 'Rhineland bastards' (offspring of Germans and French Colonials) were one thing, and were primarily a national embarassment because they were connected to occupying troops (and the fact that they were black colonials was seen as an insult).
There were Africans in Germany before that from the German colonies, often as husband or wife of a native German, as people fell in love on assignment in the Colonies.
During the time of the reich, they were allegedly not persecuted like those of the rhineland, nor were their children.
Hans Massaquoi is an example of this latter group. Stripped of citizenship and forbidden from joining the army or HJ, but not really harrassed/persecuted in any state manner. He worked in a German factory through the war.
There were Africans in Germany before that from the German colonies, often as husband or wife of a native German, as people fell in love on assignment in the Colonies.
During the time of the reich, they were allegedly not persecuted like those of the rhineland, nor were their children.
Hans Massaquoi is an example of this latter group. Stripped of citizenship and forbidden from joining the army or HJ, but not really harrassed/persecuted in any state manner. He worked in a German factory through the war.
The discussion about modern German citizenship law has been split into a new thread in the lounge since it had nothing to do with the original question:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=125465
All the best
Andreas
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=125465
All the best
Andreas
I've watched Olympia by Leni Riefenstahl and took very careful note it was a pretty non-racist film. Remember, this was a film made by a person that spent time in prison (and had her career ruined) after the war for being a Nazi propagandist.
You might find this article enlightening: http://www.forward.com/articles/jesse-o ... -olympics/
There are differing stories as to whether she made this film for the International Olympic Committee or for Hitler (or it might be that she made it for the Olympic Committee and Hitler paid for it) - it might be expected that as the Nazi's favourite film-maker she would have respected the realities of Germany at that time; indeed, perhaps she did - in other words, filming as she did created no problems for the higher-ups. Although it was called (at the time) a great documentary, some people class it as propaganda today.
This is an existing piece of 1938 German culture - watch it for yourself and see what you think.
For any of you who look for secret messages (like playing the Beatles Abby Road album backwards) here are some hints: The people who are shown putting on the programs (along with people in the crowds) include blondes and quite distinctly German-looking; in the same vein, many of the official-looking people around the stadium might also be blonde and are even wearing German uniforms - also: every time you see a German athlete, you see them wearing the swastika. I've heard that if you watch the movie with a stopwatch, you'll find that the German woman that created it spends more time covering the German women athletes.
Also, if you're not too busy counting blondes, uniforms and looking at your stopwatch, you might find that Jesse Owens is covered like the champion he was.
You might find this article enlightening: http://www.forward.com/articles/jesse-o ... -olympics/
There are differing stories as to whether she made this film for the International Olympic Committee or for Hitler (or it might be that she made it for the Olympic Committee and Hitler paid for it) - it might be expected that as the Nazi's favourite film-maker she would have respected the realities of Germany at that time; indeed, perhaps she did - in other words, filming as she did created no problems for the higher-ups. Although it was called (at the time) a great documentary, some people class it as propaganda today.
This is an existing piece of 1938 German culture - watch it for yourself and see what you think.
For any of you who look for secret messages (like playing the Beatles Abby Road album backwards) here are some hints: The people who are shown putting on the programs (along with people in the crowds) include blondes and quite distinctly German-looking; in the same vein, many of the official-looking people around the stadium might also be blonde and are even wearing German uniforms - also: every time you see a German athlete, you see them wearing the swastika. I've heard that if you watch the movie with a stopwatch, you'll find that the German woman that created it spends more time covering the German women athletes.
Also, if you're not too busy counting blondes, uniforms and looking at your stopwatch, you might find that Jesse Owens is covered like the champion he was.
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Johnny_Blaze
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Fascinating pictures. I'd seen the first one but where did you get the second one? Any idea where it was taken? Doesn't seem to be in North Africa where the Free Arab units are known to have included black africans.D. Löwenhamn wrote:My problem is that you post desinformation, be it intentionally or unintentionally. Blacks were definately not seen as subhuman or degenerated although Germany, naturally, wasn't excluded from the European racism of those days. This has been discussed on the forum before, I suggest you do a forum search. As an example Ostuf Charlemagne has mentioned two blacks serving with the LVF: Norbert Desire and Louis-Joachim Eugene. Below are two images which shows blacks serving in Heer formations, the first being Freies Legion Arabien.Doggowitz wrote:Whats your problem?
Wich of my statements is a lie?
Best regards/ Daniel
Cheers
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Johnny_Blaze
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- Joined: 13 Jul 2007, 08:05
- Location: US of A
Good reference on the topic:
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0003/black_nazi.html
Seems that the few black Germans around during that time were shunned and treated as second class citizens but were not prosecuted. Its hard to think the Nazi government would allow these men to enlist.
According to accounts from SS volunteers from non-nordic countries, even they were in some ways relegated due to a mild form of racism. Some of Hitler's generals would not allow Spaniards to command german divisions at first. They eventually came around after the Spanish proved themselves in battle but their earlier decisions were driven purely by racial prejudice according to Ezquerra.
Would be quite fascinating to talk to people like Hans Massaquoi. I'm convinced things were quite different in the TR than the US and Britain version of history written in the post-war years.
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0003/black_nazi.html
Seems that the few black Germans around during that time were shunned and treated as second class citizens but were not prosecuted. Its hard to think the Nazi government would allow these men to enlist.
According to accounts from SS volunteers from non-nordic countries, even they were in some ways relegated due to a mild form of racism. Some of Hitler's generals would not allow Spaniards to command german divisions at first. They eventually came around after the Spanish proved themselves in battle but their earlier decisions were driven purely by racial prejudice according to Ezquerra.
Would be quite fascinating to talk to people like Hans Massaquoi. I'm convinced things were quite different in the TR than the US and Britain version of history written in the post-war years.
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Doktor Krollspell
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- Joined: 13 May 2005, 18:12
- Location: Sweden
Hello Jem et al.!
When it comes to the story of Hitler not shaking hands with the greatest star of the Berlin Games, the superior athlete Jesse Owens, there are many versions (myths!) and opinions. First of all, Hitler congratulated several, but not all, winners on the Game's first day. In agreement with the President of the IOC, Hitler, as head of state ought to congratulate all, or none of the winners. So knowing that he would not be present during all the Game's days, Hitler choose the latter. When Jesse Owens won the 100 m, Hitler wasn't even present in the Stadium. That Hitler not participated in the award ceremonies is nothing strange, he didn't hand out medals to any winner, germans, black americans or others.
Of course, had Hitler been present when Owen won, he might (probably) have choosed to not shake hands with the black athlete, as a political public demonstration, but this is just speculation.
Source: http://www.faktoider.nu/.
Just my two cents,
Krollspell
When it comes to the story of Hitler not shaking hands with the greatest star of the Berlin Games, the superior athlete Jesse Owens, there are many versions (myths!) and opinions. First of all, Hitler congratulated several, but not all, winners on the Game's first day. In agreement with the President of the IOC, Hitler, as head of state ought to congratulate all, or none of the winners. So knowing that he would not be present during all the Game's days, Hitler choose the latter. When Jesse Owens won the 100 m, Hitler wasn't even present in the Stadium. That Hitler not participated in the award ceremonies is nothing strange, he didn't hand out medals to any winner, germans, black americans or others.
Of course, had Hitler been present when Owen won, he might (probably) have choosed to not shake hands with the black athlete, as a political public demonstration, but this is just speculation.
Source: http://www.faktoider.nu/.
Just my two cents,
Krollspell
Guys as far as I know black people in the occupied territory of France were not treated as bad as for instance the Jews, etc. also living in France. I can not recall that I ever heard of a black been killed in a concentration camp, That been said they were not seen as part of the Aryan race.
The greatest athlete of them all Jesse Owens along with other African-Americans were treated far better in Nazi-Germany then in the USA. Alot of two-faced people wanted to meet Jesse Owens. But Hehr Hitler stood by his racial convictions and was praised at the time for not going back on what he believed just to meet Jesse Owens.
Guy Walters wrote about the 1936 Berlin Games. It gives a great inside into the Games but also about the racial happenings around the time.
The greatest athlete of them all Jesse Owens along with other African-Americans were treated far better in Nazi-Germany then in the USA. Alot of two-faced people wanted to meet Jesse Owens. But Hehr Hitler stood by his racial convictions and was praised at the time for not going back on what he believed just to meet Jesse Owens.
Guy Walters wrote about the 1936 Berlin Games. It gives a great inside into the Games but also about the racial happenings around the time.
