The Use of Chemical Weapons and Poisonous gas in WW2

[Brian Von Stauffenberg]

I have often wondered why the Germans and Japanese never used The dreaded Poison gas and germ warfare on the Battlefield, someone will probably come up with an example of of use but it seems to me it was never commonly used, i have read that Hitler in particular refused to allow it to be used as he was victim to a gas attack in the 1st WW.
Anyone have any thoughts on this one? :

[Oleg Grigoryev]

I have often wondered why the Germans and Japanese never used The dreaded Poison gas and germ warfare on the Battlefield, someone will probably come up with an example of of use but it seems to me it was never commonly used, i have read that Hitler in particular refused to allow it to be used as he was victim to a gas attack in the 1st WW.
Anyone have any thoughts on this one? :

Fear of retaliation most likely. Germans did use some kind of suffacating agent against Soviet Partisans at Kerch catacombs. There is also this:

ussian UBR-240 P (AP-T) arrowhead shell, 251g tungsten carbide penetrator, m=866g, l=120mm, ol=407mm, Vo=1070m/s, pm=~425g, black colored shell with threaded-in aluminum nosepiece, markings in shell: 33 75-4 3, headstamp: BD | 184 in circle O | | 120. 45G Note: Powder mass is an estimation!

Russian UO-243 (HE) shell, m=2105g, l=246mm, ol=441mm, Vo=343m/s, 118g of TNT high explosive filler, KTM-1 fuze, pm=115g of 7/7 smokeless powder, gray lacquered shell body, headstamp: F | 184 in circle C | | 112 42G
<http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/1852/z45hk.jpg>
The tungsten carbide core is surrounded by very toxic mercury chloride HgCl2 or Hg2Cl2. This white to gray substance builds small balls of metallic mercury when heated, it was used to
securely fix the hard metal core to the outer shell in the first place. Second, in the moment of impact, these substances change their chemical and thermodynamic properties and act like a liquid lubricant with high density and viscosity under the energetic shock of impact. This helps the core to separate smoothly from the outer shell. The third, and a most welcomed by-effect, is the high toxic nature of the HgCl2 and Hg2Cl2. These are very toxic in their
solid property (0,2-0,4g fatal dose), but when they evaporate in the heat as the core is penetrating, they form a very toxic cloud of mercury vapors inside the hit vehicle, killing or severely damaging the health of the crew.

. I don't think this is chemical weapon excatly.

[Mark Alinsky]

Mark Weber

In a secret wartime memorandum recently made public, Winston Churchill told his advisers that he wanted to "drench" Germany with poison gas. Churchill's July 1944 memo to his chief of staff Gen. Hastings Ismay was reproduced in the August-September 1985 issue of American Heritage magazine.

"I you to think very seriously over this question of poison gas," the four-page note began. Britain's wartime leader continued; "It is absurd to consider morality on this topic when everybody used it [gas] in the last war without a word of complaint from the moralists or the Church. On the other hand, in the last war the bombing of open cities was regarded as forbidden. Now everybody does it as a matter of course. It is simply a question of fashion changing as she does between long and short skirts for women."

Churchill's directive bluntly stated: "I want a cold-blooded calculation made as to how it would pay to use poison gas ... One really must not be bound within silly conventions of the mind whether they be those that ruled in the last war or those in reverse which rule in this." Specifically he proposed: "We could drench the cities of the Ruhr and many other cities in Germany in such a way that most of the population would be requiring constant medical attention ... It may be several weeks or even months before I shall ask you to drench Germany with poison gas, and if we do it, let us do it one hundred per cent. In the meantime, I want the matter studied in cold blood by sensible people and not by the particular set of psalm-singing uniformed defeatists which one runs across now here now here now there."

Churchill's proposal, which would have meant violating the 1925 Geneva Protocol outlawing the use of poison gas, was never adopted. His military advisers argued that gas warfare would divert Allied war planes from the more effective strategy of bombing Germany's industries and cities. Gas attacks would not be decisive, they feared, and Germany would very probably retaliate with devastating effect against Britain. Churchill complained to an associate that he was "not at all convinced by this negative report," but he reluctantly gave in. "Clearly I cannot make head against the parsons and the warriors at the same time," he complained in private.

The American Heritage article, written by Stanford University history professor Barton J. Bernstein, also reported that top American military officials urged the U.S. to begin gas warfare against Japan. Maj. Gen. William N. Porter, chief of the Chemical Warfare Service, pleaded in mid-December 1943 with U.S. Army superiors to initiate gas warfare against the Japanese, and on several occasions in 1945 Gen. George C. Marshall, U.S. Army chief of staff, urged using gas in the Pacific. There was some popular support for this view. The New York Daily News declared "We Should Gas Japan," and Washington Times-Herald agreed, explaining "You Can Cook `Em Better with Gas." But this was a minority view. About 75 percent of Americans reportedly opposed initiating gas warfare. After the war Gen. Marshall said that the main reason that gas wasn't used was opposition from the British, who feared that a desperate German might then use it in Europe.

The United States produced about 135,000 tons of chemical warfare agents during the war, while Germany turned out about 70,000 tons, Britain about 40,000 and Japan only 7,500 tons. Although the Allies had larger stockpiles of traditional chemical agents, Germany developed far more advanced and lethal nerve gasses, most notably the devastating agents Tabun, Sarin and Soman. They were never used.

After the war a British Army chemical warfare expert concluded that Germany could have delayed the June 1944 Allied cross-channel invasion by six months if it had gas. "Such a delay," he noted, "could have given the Germans sufficient time to complete their new V-weapons, which would have made the Allies&#8217;s task all the harder and England's long range bombardment considerably worse." Even in March and April 1945, when German military resistance was rapidly collapsing, Germany kept to it&#8217;s pledge not to use gas. Hitler reportedly refused to consider using poison gas in part because of his recollection of the horror of his own gassing during the First World War, which temporarily blinded him.

[mike262752]

in my opinion both Axis and Allies were scared of retaliations, but what i always wondered was why Hitler didnt order it to be used during the closing days of the war when he didnt care about anything.

[Mark Alinsky]

Because Hitler was not as unscrupulous as Churchill.

in my opinion both Axis and Allies were scared of retaliations, but what i always wondered was why Hitler didnt order it to be used during the closing days of the war when he didnt care about anything.

[Brian Von Stauffenberg]

6 Million Jews Gipsies and undesirables are testament to Hitlers scruples.
But were not going down that road again on this forum.

[Ovidius]

We've passed through this about six times in the old forum.

Therefore I refuse to repost again my arguments. Just take a look at the link:

http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... D=36.topic

~Ovidius

[Scott Smith]

The reason that Germany did not use poison gas in WWII was because Hitler could not be assured by his experts that it would be DECISIVE in any way and that the enemy would not then merely retaliate.

So in WWII German poison gas stockpiles were used as a DETERRENT; in case the enemy did use gas, they could be hit back hard. And that is why the Allies did not use poison gas themselves, considered by Churchill as a terror weapon.

Although Hitler had been gassed in WWI he had no schmaltzy sentiments about this but in many instances refused to use weapons for humanitarian reasons that had limited military value, such as using anti-personnel phosphorous bombs on civilian targets merely to strike terror, as Bomber Command was doing.

As far as gas being more harmful to the attacker, that is only partially true. It was true for the Germans in WWI because the prevailing winds were Westerly and tended to blow the gas east over the battlefield and back onto German lines. This consideration would have been irrelevant in WWII where the targets would have been far to the rear, such as airfields, marshalling yards, harbors and even cities.

Poison gas is an "Area Weapon" that could have been delivered by V-1, V-2, by jet aircraft, by conventional artillery and rockets, and by conventional German aircraft at night. The German nerve gases were more potent than the Allied mustard gases (persistent and effective blister agents used in WWI) which the Germans also had plenty of. Initially, the Allied gas masks would have offered no protection to the new nerve agents but that would have changed soon upon first-use.

Nerve gases are normally not naturally persisting but are deliberately made to be more persistent with a binding or thickening agent so that they will contaminate large volumes of vehicles and equipment for long periods. Using poison gas at a critical time such as the Allied invasion of Normandy, where all the equipment funnelled through bottlenecks could have had a decisive effect upon the outcome of the battle if the Germans had the air superiority that could have defended against retaliation.

Hitler didn't get his 1000 Me 262 jet fighter-bombers in time for Normandy, so this was not even an option. And he had to hold back in case Bomber Command started dropping mustard gas on German cities with impugnity. If Germany had used gas, then Germany would have gotten the worst of it under the circumstances. But the Allies had to think twice about it too because Hitler could have paid them back.


Here's an interesting article:

Weber, Mark. "Churchill wanted to 'drench' Germany with poison gas." Winter, 1985; vol. 6 no. 4: p. 501.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

I don't think neither the Germans, nor the Japanese used Bio or Chem warfare, but the Japanese might have planned to, as some installations after the war could indicate...

FP

[Gwynn Compton]

The Japanese were developing germ warfare in Manchuria, using the local Chinese POWs as test subjects, they would be tied to a pole, and then a plane would come in and dive bomb them with a germ agent.

It was a crude but effective way of doing it, however I don't think they ever developed plans to use it against the Allies.

[Nigel]

The potential use of Anthrax by the British has been the subject of earlier discussions and articles. See http://www.thirdreich.net for additional information.

Cheers

Nigel

[Zapfenstreich]

Most people have a tendency to minimalize Hitler's WWI service. They forget he served four full years in combat zones and took far less urlaub than the average soldier.

In spite of everything, Hitler always identified very strongly with the common infantryman. When the second war began Hitler made two resolutions; never to use poison gas and never to allow the war to stagnate into trench warfare.

I heard that the Germans once, inadverdently, used gas but there were many high official apologies for the accident and neither side ever used it again in combat.

Z[/i]

[ziggy wiseman]

"Because Hitler was not as unscrupulous as Churchill. "
You bet,Mark!
"Sir"Winston was a bloody drunk racist