Best fighter pilot of the War?

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Harri
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#16

Post by Harri » 01 Aug 2004, 23:56

Christoph Awender wrote:Wouldn´t the best pilots be teachers in the various schools? Just a thought.
Good point Christoph. And what about the many test pilots? They were the elite of all pilots although didn't necessarily shot down any enemy planes. For example Soviet test pilot Vladimir K. Kokkinaki had an amazingly long career. I think there was also another one, his brother?

A little about V. Kokkinaki see:
http://www.armymuseum.ru/airspace/acad2.html
Topspeed wrote:I'd say for the effort in summer of 1944 Captain Hans Wind and Master Sergeant Nils Katajainen were the most outstanding fighting couple ever existed. Give me a two week period ( 15 days to be correct ) of any pilot and his wingman who scored 49 aeroplanes in 15 days.
Katajainen crashed too many planes to get that title. That does not mean he wouldn't have been good pilot. In addition he was also a bomber pilot for a while after crashing too many times...
Christoph Awender wrote:Don´t you think this also depended on the type of aircraft shot down and the circumstances? If for example a pilot chatches and unescorted flight of Ju-87 and shoots down 5 of them is not as difficult as shooting down 5 P-51.
So again... a endless discussion with no real factual value. Just pure guesswork as nobody knows all pilots of all countries during WW2.
I think we should think wider and bring new less known names into light instead of arguing if someone was "the best" only based on opinions. Personally I think the number of kills don't necessarily make the best pilot.

To me bombers are of greater value than fighters. Bombers had also bigger invaluable crew so killing a bombers is certainly more important than killing a fighter.

So, more suggestions, please. :)

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Andy H
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#17

Post by Andy H » 02 Aug 2004, 01:06

Again the person who started this thread has offered no parameters as to how one measures "The Best", and so yet again we are left with supicision.

As per usual many will concentrate on fighter pilots, based on kill's, yet how does one measure a bomber pilot's skill, versus a recce pilot's or versus a anti-submarine pilot's skill-you can't.

The best (or most skilled) fighter pilot may have died without ever scoring a kill just because his luck ran out etc.

Andy H


Polynikes
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#18

Post by Polynikes » 02 Aug 2004, 06:09

Best fighter pilot: Douglas Bader.

Best Bomber pilot: Guy Gibson.

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Topspeed
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#19

Post by Topspeed » 02 Aug 2004, 08:31

Harri wrote: Katajainen crashed too many planes to get that title. That does not mean he wouldn't have been good pilot. In addition he was also a bomber pilot for a while after crashing too many times...
Hartmann crashed 14 times and many consider him an ok pilot.

Where is the kill chart from Puhakka from June-July 1944.

Puhakka flew for Finnair and Katajainen flew bombers..I think they equal.

Juke T

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Topspeed
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#20

Post by Topspeed » 02 Aug 2004, 09:08

Andy H wrote:Again the person who started this thread has offered no parameters as to how one measures "The Best", and so yet again we are left with supicision.

As per usual many will concentrate on fighter pilots, based on kill's, yet how does one measure a bomber pilot's skill, versus a recce pilot's or versus a anti-submarine pilot's skill-you can't.

The best (or most skilled) fighter pilot may have died without ever scoring a kill just because his luck ran out etc.

Andy H
I figured the question as " WHO WAS THE BEST FIGHTER PILOT IN WWII ? "

Here is an other answer:

Finnish bomber pilot Laus Dei Saxell got a mission to bomb the wooden monastery in Kizhi Island in Russian-Karelia. It was supposed to be used for observation by the enemy. Laus Dei ( Mercy of God by the name ! ) did not follow the order, but instead dumbed the bombs elsewhere. Now there is a very attractive tourist resort in KIZHI Island. It is UN-world wide heritage site as well.

I think that makes him a supreme bomber pilot of all times. He also wrote book about his life: " Sotataivaan hiljaiset " translates as " The quiet ones of the war skies "
Last edited by Topspeed on 04 Aug 2004, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Juha Tompuri
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#21

Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 Aug 2004, 11:50

Topspeed wrote: Winter War ( 90 days )
105 days
Topspeed wrote:Where is the kill chart from Puhakka from June-July 1944.
Here: http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/combat/cwacerace.html#jun1944

Regards, Juha

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Topspeed
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#22

Post by Topspeed » 02 Aug 2004, 14:24

Ok,

There you see Puhakka wasn't even in the top ten when the action went on in the Karelian Isthmus in 1944.
Nils Katajainen and Hans Wind as a pair scored in two week more enemy planes than Capt. Puhakka in the whole course of war.

I could say that Flight Masters Artturi Sysilampi and Pauli Pohjanvirta who were among top two flight instructors in Kauhava in before and during WW II were the most outstanding two pilots in the war. Do we know any better kill / loss ratio in the history of military aviation than FAF pilots had ( okay the Croatians maybe ) ? The boys these two guys and their comrades taught to fly were most likely to see their families after the war too.

JT

PS: The ace list is very misleading, since it does not have aces like Sergeat Halonen who superseded old farts like Capt. Puhakka in scoring list of the June-Jyly of 1944. Sgt. Halonen was a rookie, but seemed to learn very quickly.

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#23

Post by Enkpitt » 03 Aug 2004, 18:03

How did fighter pilots measure the kills? Could they lie about the kills?

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Topspeed
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#24

Post by Topspeed » 03 Aug 2004, 21:27

Measure kills...I don't quite follow ? Gun camera, eye witness, found wreck.
Soviets accounts that about 50 more planes were lost against finns in combat than Finns had claimed.
In the Winter War the first a Soviet bomber needed more than 150 bullets in the plane before it did a forced landing.

JT

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Victor
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#25

Post by Victor » 03 Aug 2004, 22:42

Topspeed wrote:Of course it does. This is just like I said a situation were trained good pilots can make difference, when enemy is overhelming. I'd still be interested if someone can come up with for instance the same figure of Erich Hartmann's the best two week period with his wingman !

best regards,

Juka T :?
Hermann Graf shot down 62 VVS aircraft over Stalingrad in only one month. It would be interesting to find out who his Kaczmarek was then and if he scored some kills.

Going back on topic, IMO, there are many extraordinary pilots in WWII from all sides. However, Hans Ulrich Rudel deserves a special mention among them.

Edit: just noticed the topic was about the best fighter pilot, so RUdel is out of the question. I am surprised no one mentioned the "Star of Africa": Hans Joachim Marseille.
Last edited by Victor on 04 Aug 2004, 07:02, edited 1 time in total.

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#26

Post by Volklin » 04 Aug 2004, 01:02

Erich Hartmann- Shot down the most planes. Top ace of the war, signifying him as best pilot!

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#27

Post by alf » 04 Aug 2004, 11:05

I am surprised no one mentioned the "Star of Africa": Hans Joachim Marseille.
It depends on how you define effectiveness really, Marseille only ever shot down four bombers in his career. So whilst he was sitting high up and pouncing on obsolete Tomahawks, the bombers were busy bombing the Afrika Korps and their supplies. Shooting down a fighter, yes, is a kill, but shooting down a recon plane, a ground attack aircraft or bomber can affect the tactical outcome of battles.

Kills matter nothing if the battle is lost below because the enemy maintains tactical air superiority. Plus of course Marsellie's claims are in dispute at times ie his 16 kills in one day including 6 Spitfires. That simply means in combat he claimed aircraft he hit but did not necessarily see crash, a common mistake made by pilots of all nations.
Marseille's career is one of the most interesting and stellar of any Second World War aviator. In 388 combat missions, 482 missions total, he destroyed 158 allied aircraft. All of these on Western Front. For the remaining skeptics, please note the following: In the North Africa campaign, some 1300 victories were claimed by German pilots. Of those, 674 victories were claimed by only 15 pilots, and the top 55 scoring pilots accounted for 1042 kills. This points out another very basic difference between German and Allied combat philosophy. While the Allies tended to hunt in packs and compete vigorously for kills, the Germans, at least in North Africa, tended to let the best pilots "have at it" while the novices would tend to sit back and enjoy the show. This is one reason the loss of an asset like Marseille was so devastating to the Luftwaffe in Africa. That kind of emotional destruction would not likely occur in Allied squadrons.

Through complete and intense research of many of Marseille's claims in the desert, it can be argued that he may have indeed been guilty of some over claiming towards the end of his short and prolific career. Not that it was intentional but rather as matter of circumstances of the circus like environment his character brought to the unit. Everyone expected him to be successful on a daily basis and achieve more and more glory for their unit. Marseille in turn, certainly influenced by their enthusiasm, was so sure of his own abilities that he would sometimes fire at the enemy, break off the attack and seek the next victim without confirming the destruction of the previous target. A large percent of his victims did indeed crash land in the desert or limp back home as opposed to being utterly blown out of the sky. Regardless, even with the possibility of slight over claiming due to youthful bravado and a twinge of wishful thinking, a conservative estimate of over 130 definite, indisputable victories, equivalent to approximately ten percent of all aircraft claimed by Luftwaffe pilots in North Africa, is still a testament to this man's achievements.
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html

Erich Hartmen did operate against the full range of Russian aircraft, so i rate him far higher, but for the best fighter pilot I rate Werner Molders the best fighter pilot of the war.

The tactics he developed, the "rotte" and "schwarm" are still the cornerstone of fighter tactics 60 + years later in every airforce in the world.

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#28

Post by Volklin » 04 Aug 2004, 11:59

You can do all your acrobatics and looking good but it's the one who gets the most kills that's the best.

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#29

Post by Topspeed » 04 Aug 2004, 12:26

Volklin,

You are not being honest here. Flying in target rich environment is essential to get a kill in the first place. We cannot know if a fighter trainee from Norway in Canada was the best pilot, since he possibly did not even get a change to fly a combat mission.

FAF fighter squadron 24 shot down 300 enemy planes and lost 12 in combat between 4.4.1944 - 4.9.1944 ( kill /loss 25/1 )

Squadron was divided into three flights and consisted as follows ( 1.5.1944 ):

1.Flight 9 Bf-109 G-2s
2.Flight 2 Bf-109 G-2s + 8 Brewsters
3.Flight 4 Bf-109 G-2s + 7 Brewsters

19.6.1944 they got 8 new Bf-109 G-6s.

Enemy was flying mostly La-5fn, Yak-9, P-39 Airacobra and Il-2 ( Pe-2, B-20 ). Very equal fighters if not better ( La-5 fn was far better ).

Show me better than 49 kills / 15 days combo ( pilot+wingman ). Victor just made an attempt, but did not find the wingmans kills.

I am pretty sure there is better one in the Luftwaffe, but want to see who they were.

JT

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#30

Post by Zygmunt » 04 Aug 2004, 12:54

Topspeed wrote:Soviets accounts that about 50 more planes were lost against finns in combat than Finns had claimed.
You've mentioned this before, but this is the first time you give a figure of fifty - point me to a source! Even if it's in Finnish! I think what you're saying is quite plausible, I'm just really curious to read it for myself.
Victor wrote:...just noticed the topic was about the best fighter pilot...
Methinks the title of the thread was adapted to reflect the route the discussion was taking.
alf wrote:Marseille only ever shot down four bombers in his career. So whilst he was sitting high up and pouncing on obsolete Tomahawks, the bombers were busy bombing the Afrika Korps and their supplies.
As I read over on skyhawk.org, "Wars are won by killing the enemy in their hundreds on the ground, not one at a time at twenty thousand feet."
But couldn't you argue that by destroying single-engined fighters Marseille was gaining air-superiority which would allow other units to down bombers and recon aircraft, or indeed make the Allies reluctant to send such aircraft up in the first place?


Zygmunt

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