Best fighter pilot of the War?

[Topspeed]

You can do all your acrobatics and looking good but it's the one who gets the most kills that's the best.

I would say who gets the most kills in the given time puts them in somekinda equal perspective. Many AF:s did not fly as long as Germans, nor with equipment of same level.

Hartmann is certainly candidate for this " 15 days best result ", if one can reassure it from the war annals. I have reason to believe that wingmans scores were added to ACES scores as a standard procedure IMHO.

Prove me wrong !

Juke T

[Volklin]

Volklin,

You are not being honest here. Flying in target rich environment is essential to get a kill in the first place. We cannot know if a fighter trainee from Norway in Canada was the best pilot, since he possibly did not even get a change to fly a combat mission.

FAF fighter squadron 24 shot down 300 enemy planes and lost 12 in combat between 4.4.1944 - 4.9.1944 ( kill /loss 25/1 )

Squadron was divided into three flights and consisted as follows ( 1.5.1944 ):

1.Flight 9 Bf-109 G-2s
2.Flight 2 Bf-109 G-2s + 8 Brewsters
3.Flight 4 Bf-109 G-2s + 7 Brewsters

19.6.1944 they got 8 new Bf-109 G-6s.

Enemy was flying mostly La-5fn, Yak-9, P-39 Airacobra and Il-2 ( Pe-2, B-20 ). Very equal fighters if not better ( La-5 fn was far better ).

Show me better than 49 kills / 15 days combo ( pilot+wingman ). Victor just made an attempt, but did not find the wingmans kills.

I am pretty sure there is better one in the Luftwaffe, but want to see who they were.

JT

Would've could've should've , those are all what-ifs in war and history. If we went by that logic then the possibilities would be endless.

[Topspeed]

Volklin,

You are of the opinion that a person who kills most is the best pilot of several aeroplane types. I'd call him fearless and a good shooter.

An example is Master Sergeant Mauno Fräntilä the wingman of WO. Illu Juutilainen. He had never hunted in his life and agrees that he was not a very good marksman, but when you hear the adventures he has had flying on the wing of an 91 kill ace you'd wonder, which one was the better pilot. He is still alive by the way.

Certainly Erich Hartmann and his wingman had more than 49 kills in a forthnite. Look them up, I am interested. Certainly you agree that a "sports event" must be judged by the equal terms...that is the most kills in a given equal time !? You just highlighted his wingman never been lost..let's read more about them.

later,

Juke T

[Volklin]

The whole objective, the main reason why fighter planes exist are to destroy other fighter planes is it not? So that's what would signify a "best" fighter pilot.

[Topspeed]

No Volklin you are terribly mistaken,

Fighter aeroplanes exist so that other nations fighter aeroplanes wouldn't exist in one country. It takes more than few aces in a war to keep the other nation fighters out of the country's aerospace.

It is a tool like a rifle...it is only used when ones life is in danger. How it is used and under which circumstances defines who is a war criminal and who is not.

Who is the best fighter pilot is already a hint to direction of the kills. To be able to judge the fighter pilots correctly one has to have a similar situation for all pilots to be judged from.

We all agree that a good fighter pilot:

Can fly well
Can shoot well
Can endure hardships of the combat

Erich Hartmann has showed all these..so have many others.

[Roderick]

As the best pilot, my vote goes to SS Gruppenführer Hans Baur (Hilter's pilot). 8)

Roderick

[Victor]

Well if my calculations are correct, between 26 August and 26 September 1942, Oblt. Hermann Graf claimed some 66 VVS aircraft. In that period he seems to have used several wingmen: Uffz. Johann Kalb and Uffz. Hermann Wolf, who claimed in that period 12, respectively 11 aircraft. That gives a total of 89 claims in one month. There is a book on Graf and Grislawski, written by Christer Bergstrom. Maybe someone who has it can help more.

Btw, between 3 August and 26 September 1942, Oblt. Hermann Graf claimed 89 kills, approximately as Juutilanien in his entire career. ALso Kalb had 22 claims in that period.

[Topspeed]

Vic,

Juutilainen himself claimed 120, but 91 was confirmed. That is just my opinion too...;Capt. Hans Wind despite going to cadet school during the war did achieve nearly as many kills as WO Eino Ilmari Juutilainen.

So flying in target rich environment possibly Wind was the higher scorer, but with 31 kills in a fortnite makes him nearly as good a fighter than any of the Germans, despite flying an obsolete G2 version in most of the June 1944 battles. Not bad I'd say..still unbieten with his wingman.

Remember that "target rich environment" lasted only a month in Finland in that time the Finnish Air Force along with Kurt Kuhlmeys Jagdverband had done it's main objective; stopped the 20 fold enemys armoured advance at the Karelian Isthmus. Notable is also that none of the Ju-88 divebombers they escorted ever got harmed by the enemy aeroplanes, this was very crucial achievement in getting good hits on enemy trasportations, infantry, tanks and artillery concentrations.

Both Hans Wind and his wingman Nils Katajainen were hospitalised and both made a very horrific high speed forced landing ( Katajainen hit the airfield at 500 km/h and plane was totally dismantled missing engine and wings when it halted, nobody tought there was someone still alive inside. Wind was unconcious when his plane stopped, a Yak-9 round had hit in the cockpit ) when been hit pretty badly. They were in a same hospital too...that is pretty awesome picture..eating porridge served by a blonde cute nurses..both pilots covered in white veil all over..little bit of eyes and mouth visible.

JT

[Victor]

I believe these claims were all confirmed, as I have counted directly them from the Luftwaffe microfilms published by Tony Wood.

As for Wind's crash, it just goes to show that no matter how good the pilot, luck was extremely important. Take the Romanian ace cpt. av. Alexandru Serbanescu who was shot down by Mustangs of the 31st Fighter Group on the last encounter between Romanian fighters and USAAF airplanes, because his radio didn't function properly and he did not hear the warnings of his wingmen.

[Topspeed]

Well Victor,

That is the point here too; wingman being an ace meant that he cannot have been there when he was needed. That is the reason I assume why Wind was shot at and had to end his flying career. Katajainen was hit only a weeks after Wind was.

I don't know what kinda rules of engagement were applied between Wind and Katajainen, but I assume Katajainen was occupied, because Wind said before passing out again that "Nipa" won't be coming back. He had assumed a plane ( Yak-9) downed by Nils Katajainen being Nils.

I can't be sure, but Hans Wind got no warning of the approaching Yak-9. The 109 without a view to behind was vulnerable and wingman job was paramount in combat.

Juke T

[Grünherz]

Regards, Victor and alf regarding Marseille...
Don't other posts on this forum seem to support German victory claims (in general)?
At any rate, I'll repeat something I mentioned on another thread regarding a similar topic (with a caveat that I am going on memory and don't have the books in front of me--this is just to stimulate discussion, and perhaps make me look foolish). I seem to recall reading in a book ("Horrido"/"Blond Knight"?) that the Germans considered a victory on the Western front to be worth three on the Eastern front.
In that sense, if Marseille's 158 is to be believed, he would be the greatest fighter pilot in terms of the importance of his kills as his were all against the West.
This disregards the question of the importance of the opponent--that is to say bomber, fighter, etc.--just the numbers.
Tom

BTW, in general, "aerobatics" not "acrobatics".

[Grünherz]

The whole objective, the main reason why fighter planes exist are to destroy other fighter planes is it not? So that's what would signify a "best" fighter pilot.

Not necessarily. It would probably be to destroy ANY enemy aircraft as the opportunity opened. Bombers would be an equally--and possibly more dangerous--opponent. Ground attack is another reason (fighter/bomber--Jabo??).
Tom

[Topspeed]

T S Crawford,

Thanks for the input. Generally of course..think of Hartmann in I-16 against Hans Wind in Brewster..Hartmann albeit being a superior pilot wouldn't have had a change because Brewster simply out turned the I-16.

Marseille in a Me 109 F2 model against P-40 Tomahawks..Tomahawk had no change..too slow and a big target.

In the west front there was an instant competition between models. Mark IX surpassed the FW 190 A-3 and then came the FW 190 D-9...in these lines....Mk II Spit was superior to E model Me 109 and so on.

In June 1944 Yak-9 and La5 fn were superior to G2 model of Me 109. Without a doubt western allied pilots were better trained than the Soviets.

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Victor,

I have one more story:

I was in a hospital for a finger injury 1991 and there was an old infantry veteran in the room waiting for surgery with me. I asked him did he ever saw finnish fighters over there. Instantly he said : " Hardly ever !". Then he as if a light pope in his head had been switched on he said: " Once I saw from a good position when our Me 109 one by one shot down 6 Il-2s..by doing a roll after each kill ! "
I don't know what that is worth, but those could be the kills not credited for Juutilainen..his type of work, alone chasing an easy pray.

regards,

Juke T

[Grünherz]

I must say that I have learned a lot on this forum that I never knew before regarding the Finnish fighter pilots of WWII! Certainly in the U.S. (at least) this is a little understood book.
Tom

[Topspeed]

Thanks Tom,

This is my intention since very few finnish books about the subject is available to the world in general. There is so much good info and all pieces seem to fall into place neatly..................at least in my mind.

I am not bringing the finns here because I'd be underestimating someone else, just want to know if there is accurate data abroad as there is about FAF statistics.

I stil have to find the Soviets VVS casualty list I read in one chat site recently ( message board ).

regards,

Juke T