Motivation for the invasion of Poland and western Europe?

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Udet
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yo yo

#31

Post by Udet » 30 Sep 2004, 19:16

"Preferible una marcha forzada con Crátero a un banquete con Hefestión."


As quoted by a member of the forum:

"On August 22, 1939, a few days before the official start of World War II, Hitler authorized his commanders, with these infamous words, to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space [lebensraum] we need"."

Hauptmann Alfred Grislawski, a brilliant fighter pilot, a Luftwaffe experte, was of Polish origin, and he did not get killed without pity. Furthermore, he passed away on September 19, 2003.

8)

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Einsamer_Wolf
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Re: yo yo

#32

Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 30 Sep 2004, 19:51

Udet wrote:"Preferible una marcha forzada con Crátero a un banquete con Hefestión."


As quoted by a member of the forum:

"On August 22, 1939, a few days before the official start of World War II, Hitler authorized his commanders, with these infamous words, to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space [lebensraum] we need"."

Hauptmann Alfred Grislawski, a brilliant fighter pilot, a Luftwaffe experte, was of Polish origin, and he did not get killed without pity. Furthermore, he passed away on September 19, 2003.

8)
That Hitler authorized something does not make it the motto of the Wehrmacht. Hitlr authorized a lot of things that the officers of Heer did not follow--the Commisar Order and the Order to Burn Paris being two.
It is erroneous logic to state that because someone like Hitler or Himmler says or authorizes something, that it can necessarily and automatically attributed to the German Army collectively.

EW


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#33

Post by Obserwator » 30 Sep 2004, 19:58

That Hitler authorized something does not make it the motto of the Wehrmacht
I said it was the motto of campaign.Or if want it clearer-the goal of war in the East was ethnic genocide:
http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm
http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/O/Oper ... enberg.htm
Operation Tannenberg was codename for one of extermination actions directed at Polish intelligentsia during World War II. Nazis prepared lists, so called Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen, which listed more than 60,000 Polish activists, intelligentsia, actors, former officers, etc.

First, in August 1939 about 2,000 activists of Polish minority organisations in Germany were arrested and murdered. The second part of the action started September 1, 1939 and ended in October resulting in at least 20,000 murdered in 760 mass executions by special units, so-called Einsatzgruppen, in addition to regular Wehrmacht units and SS.
http://www.polishlibrary.org/review/hit ... poland.htm
This book contributes to a discussion among historians in U. S. academic circles as to where to look for sources of a brutal 1941 German campaign against Russia. Some apparently claim that the 1941 campaign was unique in its uncontrolled drive of destruction; others maintain that the German forces had already demonstrated their capacity for murder and mayhem during the 1939 campaign in Poland. Rossino is sympathetic to the latter group. Rossino’s main thesis is that it was the combination of (fascist) ideology--rabidly anti-Polish and anti-Jewish in 1939--that in 1941 acquired an equally fanatical anti-Soviet slant, Hitler’s willing executioners, and the Drang Nach Osten drive that led to the brutal campaign of 1939; therefore, the brutality and cruelty that were so prevalent in 1941 were already on display in 1939. Rossino develops his thesis in seven chapters. Chapter 1 explores the ideological dimension of the 1939 German invasion of Poland. Chapter 2 analyzes the backgrounds of Hitler’s willing executioners – men of the German Special Forces. This appears to be the weakest chapter of the whole book – almost all the characters described have resumes which read like carbon copies of one another and the author’s efforts to tease out the deeper meaning from them seem largely unsuccessful. Chapter 3 describes Operation Tannenberg--a plan to wipe out the Polish intellectual, political and business elites. Chapter 4 analyzes the anti-Jewish policy followed by the German forces during the 1939 campaign in Poland. Chapters 5 and 6 describe how Wehrmacht, showing only feeble signs of civility and respect for international law, slid down the slippery slope of atrocity and murder in the company of the German special forces which on their part never made any attempt to restrain their brutality. Chapter 7 looks behind the facts and examines what shaped the attitudes of the German forces through--among other things-- inspection of the letters and experience reports written by the German soldiers during and after the Polish campaign. The last chapter is followed by conclusions where the author restates his main thesis.
Versailles DIKTAT
What is that acronym DIKTAT ? I know only of the Versailles Treaty.
That Guderian accepted a gift estate from the Fuehrer does not refute the fact that he and his family were born in a German town that became part of Poland
That Guderian robed Polish home on territory once he lived in doesn't mean that territory wasn't Polish before does it ?
It is erroneous logic to state that because someone like Hitler or Himmler says or authorizes something, that it can necessarily and automatically attributed to the German Army collectively
Oh you mean that it errounous to assume that if Hitler as Commander of Reich forces authorized something for them they did it ? Funny way of thinking. I never knew Reich was anarchistic state LOL :D
Especially as Wehrmacht took part in genocide based upon this orders, of which evidence I have given before.And they even took part in Operation Tannenberg.
Not to mention that any soldier in the Wehrmacht had to swear "unconditional loyalty" to the "Führer und Reichskanzler" Adolf Hitler...
Hauptmann Alfred Grislawski, a brilliant fighter pilot, a Luftwaffe experte, was of Polish origin, and he did not get killed without pity
Yes according to Nazi doctrine Untermenschen with mixed blood could be exploited in war-his fate if Reich would won would be dire indeed.
To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated:
The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1 The Nazis acknowledged that among the sub-humans, (especially among their leaders) there were those few who had obvious traces of Aryan-Nordic ancestry; however, it was decided that most of these people would have to be destroyed in order to leave the inferior races without leadership. It was possible that some of these superior people could be "germanized" -- but if not, one should at least preserve the good blood in their children. By this logic, many thousands of Polish children were subjected to a racial test. Those who had what Nazis defined as "Aryan" characteristics -- such as blue eyes, blond hair, a properly proportioned head, good behavior and above average intelligence -- were kidnapped from their parents and shipped to Germany for ultimate adoption by appropriate German families.

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Sbf.Koch
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#34

Post by Sbf.Koch » 30 Sep 2004, 21:24

Obserwator wrote:
That Hitler authorized something does not make it the motto of the Wehrmacht
I said it was the motto of campaign.Or if want it clearer-the goal of war in the East was ethnic genocide
So, it does NOT make it the motto of the Wehrmacht. The goal of the war in the east was ethnic genocide? Erm, no. That's utter cow-poo. I think you don't understand warfare or politics at all. (I don't say genocide wasn't A goal. It just was not THE goal).

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Sbf.Koch

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#35

Post by Obserwator » 30 Sep 2004, 21:42

So, it does NOT make it the motto of the Wehrmacht
It was a goal of its leaders to who Wehrmacht was just a willing tool to create 1000year old Reich free of Untermenschen who would perish in concentration camps(made btw on territory conquered by Wehrmacht)
The goal of the war in the east was ethnic genocide? Erm, no.
Statements of Hitler and speaches of his lackeys prove otherwise.
Ermmm-YES. The ultimate goal of Hitler's regime was extermination of Jews, and destruction of Slavs-Poles,Russians to token number of slaves of German Ubermenschen.
There are so many proofs(Hitler's statements,documents, actions taken by German forces) that only the most fanatic apologist would denial such intentions of Reich.
think you don't understand warfare or politics at all
Oh I understand them completly-it is just that the short term goals of conquering strategic regions, securing forward bases of operations were part of a larger plan -which was the genocide of milions of Jews,Poles,Gypsies,Russians etc...
You just need to distinguish between short term goals and long term goals.
The ultimate goal of German Reich was murder.

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Einsamer_Wolf
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#36

Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 30 Sep 2004, 22:05

Observator--your understanding of history is crude, simple and accusatory. I never indicated that the Reich was blameless. Conversely, however that is not to say that there were not legitimate reasons that most Germans viewed the attack on Poland as legitmate. For you to reduce the entire history of the deutsche Wehrmacht as a tool for genocide is laughable and pathetic. As I indicated before, it is a mistake to impute dubious policies and propaganda statements to the Germany Army as a whole. The two are not necessarily interchangeable.
Oh and to prove you wrong I am attempting to find info to back my calim that a number of lands yielded to Poland were majority German--particularly those that made the artificial corridor splitting Prussia in two. It may take time though--I do have a lot of other things going on you know. For now I will just again refer you to those two sources.

EW

One last thing, which I must again repeat as if speaking to a slow, stupid and not altogether attractive child--whether or not the estate that Guderian took as a gift from the Fuehrer does nto change the fact that he and his family, among countless others, were born in lands taken away by Germany in Versailles. You asked why Germans supported the war in the Early Years. This is a major reason why. That you are unable or unwilling to understand this in my mind defeats the very purpose of learning about history--to understand why it happened, not to accuse or condemn.

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#37

Post by Obserwator » 30 Sep 2004, 22:25

For you to reduce the entire history of the deutsche Wehrmacht as a tool for genocide is laughable and pathetic.
For some strange reason I sincerly believe that mass murder of milions does overshadow its history.
The ethnic extermination and massive atrocites conducted by Reich forces overshadow other "qualities" they may have possed (goose marching or obeying orders without question). In fact most things that they would receive praise for(following orders) made the extente of their barbaric savagery possible.
As I indicated before, it is a mistake to impute dubious policies and propaganda statements to the Germany Army as a whole.
It doesn't not as Wehrmacht was responsible for controling its soldiers and keeping law and order on territories it occupied till October 25th.
Activly patripating in genocide, taking part in executions of cilivans and round up etc makes those in command as well as those watching responsible.
I am attempting to find info to back my calim that a number of lands yielded to Poland were majority German
So-the regions of Poland ceded to Germany where Poles were majority should be Polish ?
whether or not the estate that Guderian took as a gift from the Fuehrer does nto change the fact that he and his family, among countless others, were born in lands taken away by Germany in Versailles
Which Germany took from Poland, and Guderian didn't took his estate but robed it from Polish family-which was a typical for German officers in Poland it seems.
You asked why Germans supported
I didn't.
This is a major reason why.
So you claim that Germans wanted the war ?
You mean being unable to cope with peace and giving up expansion, keeping land they occupied in XVIII century ?
And of course antisemitism, xenophobia and nationalism were other major reasons...
Oh and one other thing:
does nto change the fact that he and his family, among countless others, were born in lands taken away by Germany in Versailles
He was born in Chełmno :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelmno
The first written mention about Chelmno is known from a document allegedly issued in 1065 by Polish duke Boleslaus I of Poland for the Benedictine Monastery in Mogilno. In 1226 Prince Konrad of Mazovia brought Teutonic Knights to Chelmno Land. In 1233 Chelmno was granted the location privilege called "Chelmno rights" (renewed in 1251), the model system for over 200 Polish towns. The town of Chelmno together Chelmno Land was part of Teutonic Knights state until 1466, when after Thirteen Years' War Chełmno was incorporated back into Poland and made the capital of Chelmno Voivodship. In 1772 following partitions of Poland Chelmno became part of Kingdom of Prussia. At these times the city was part of the Hanseatic League. Between 1807 and 1815 Chelmno was part of Duchy of Warsaw. Chelmno was recovered by Poland in 1920.
Well, well it seems he was born on territory taken from Poland by Prussia.
Isn't it surprising :D
That you are unable or unwilling to understand this in my mind defeats the very purpose of learning about history
I just learnt that Guderian was unhappy that Prussia lost territory it robed from Poland and where his family was part of colonisation effort as it seems...
And also this :
http://www.chelmno.pl/Historiaen/1.htm
0
9.1772
The first partition of Poland - Chełmno included into the Prussian part of partitioned Poland.
19th c.
Chełmno became the strongest centre of Polish culture in Pomerania
1807 - 1815
The town included within the limits of the Warsaw Duchy.
1881
Famous Polish surgeon Ludwik Rydygier performed in Chełmno the first stomach operation worldwide.
22.01.1920.
Chełmno liberated by Polish troops led by general Józef Haller.
1.09.1939
The outbreak of the Second World War. Germans seized the town, performed mass arrests and executions on inhabitants of Chełmno.
It also seems contary to your statement
Many of these lands had a majority of Germans for centuries, and indeed did right up to the invasion of PolandChełmno
Chelmno was under German occupation for less then century and it was strongly inhabited by Poles.
How surprising indeed...

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Victor
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#38

Post by Victor » 30 Sep 2004, 22:37

Eisamer_Wolf watch your language. Insults are not welcomed in the discussions on this forum. Topic closed.

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