Life in Occupied Russia

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Don Kazak
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#106

Post by Don Kazak » 19 Sep 2009, 22:55

yaroslav


Diferent places -diferent politics by germans. When the germans run away from Stalingrad, many kazak families run with them. And was killed by red army air forces.
For me Stalin =Hitler, may be worth for my country.

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vanir
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#107

Post by vanir » 23 Sep 2009, 14:40

In Mein Kampf Hitler definitely discusses the brutal mind of the Slavs but his untermenschen concerns mainly regard the Zionists, those fundamentalist Jews forced from Tsarist Russia who wound up populating large regions in places like Austria, which is where Hitler developed a hatred for them for what he believed was a conspiracy to pervert other nations, culture and government through control of the media and industrialism. He particularly disliked the Russian Zionists but expanded his theory to include all Judaeism and capitalist industrialists. Technically his racism here is religious and not really racially based at all (Zionism and Judaeism are not races but sectarianism and religion). Whilst his bend regarding capitalist industrialists infringing this irrational fanaticism appeared to be a popular anti-intelligentsia sentiment perhaps derived of his petit bourgois aristocratic status. Then of course is the matter of his anti-Marxist emphasis and disdain for centralised Christian political parties (Catholic and Protestant).

I do know that during the ratification of Einsatzgruppen doctrine the primary targets of initial concern were Soviet Commissars and Intellectuals (targeted for summary assassination), so well ahead of "Jewry" the concern of SS organisations was to destroy Stalin's ability to govern and organise the domestic population for even token resistance during the war. An absolute victory was obviously the goal, the Nazi doctrine in the USSR clearly ideological as much as military and clearly aimed at the Soviet population's ability whether military or civilian to offer psychological resistance to the German war machine and occupation.

I believe it is in addition and quite separate from this formal anti-Soviet doctrine was the general Nazi agenda of European ideology on the whole, and the eradication of industrialist and media conspiracy they claimed propagated by Jewry, a belief which was of course a straight case of Hitler worship. It does appear to me at least, the mass execution of Jewish populations in occupied Soviet territories was independently undertaken by subordinate SS concerns, perhaps under Göring's authority which is a claim he made during his trial (eventually). It was propogated by the ideological concerns of the SS-Einsatzgruppen but I think formally the policy of individual governers and influential members of the Sonderkommando units, though of course was not discouraged if performed and even accommodated.

But yet my sensibilities do tell me the primary concern of the Einsatzgruppen administration was the destruction of the Soviet state from the hearts and minds of its people by the most ruthless and criminal means, with this homicidal exception to Jewry simply a circumstantial bonus that got tossed in.

That said Himmler-funded anthropologists were encouraged through the use of Eugenics to find semitics and slavs were further from the ancient Ayran (which they identified as Atlantean with Tibetans their devolved descendants and Germans their peers), than were Germanics.
Jason


yarik
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#108

Post by yarik » 02 Jul 2010, 09:38

attitude towards the Russian and the civilian population can be expressed in this photo.
Even with information about the subdivision. Summer 1941.

The collective picture of German soldiers near a school board with the inscription: "The Russian must die so that we lived"
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The collective picture of German soldiers near a school board with the inscription: "The Russian must die so that we lived"
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michael mills
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#109

Post by michael mills » 11 Jul 2010, 06:35

attitude towards the Russian and the civilian population can be expressed in this photo.
Even with information about the subdivision. Summer 1941.
Whenever the pro-Soviet members of this Forum are faced with examples of wartime propaganda produced by people such as Erenburg, with calls to "kill the German", they invariably point out that the Russian word used for German, "nemets", or Germans, "nemtsy", is masculine, and therefore refers to killing only male German soldiers, and does not imply the extermination of the German civilian population.

So I will adopt the same logic. The word used in the inscription is "der Russe", a masculine noun meaning "the Russian man". According to the logic of the afore-mentioned pro-Soviet Forum members, the reference must be solely to the male Russian soldier, and does not imply the extermination of the Russian civilian population.

yarik
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#110

Post by yarik » 18 Jul 2010, 00:47

hmmm...
This photo is not Elenburg's propoganda. 1000 same photos were got from killed Nazi solders with pictured tortured civil people. I saw such photos in private collections and different musems. As my grandfather told - "...we did not need Elenburg to burn the rage to fight against Nazi Germany - germans were burning our hate, revenge and rage. You and your generation are not able to understant the war spirit of that times ".
As for me - I am not pro-soviet and glad to be on this forum to communicate with different people with different attitude to the WWII.


This is from official USSR Encyclopedy "The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945" and

Дюков А. Р. За что сражались советские люди. М.: Яуза, Эксмо,
2007. ISBN 978-5-699-22722-8. С. 38[1].

michael mills
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#111

Post by michael mills » 20 Jul 2010, 16:18

Yarik,

You obviously dfid not understand the point I was making.

"Der Russe" = the Russian man.

"Der Russe muss sterben" = "The Russian man must die".

What is meant is that the Russian soldier must die. It does not imply destruction of the civilian population.

How do you understand the command "ubei nemtsa"? Do you say it means "kill the German soldier", or "kill German civilians"?

Have I made myself clear now?

paratatruc
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#112

Post by paratatruc » 23 Jul 2010, 18:18

If I'm not wrong the call "kill the German" appeared first in 1942, when the only German present were soldiers.
In 1945, that would have been another matter.
"Der Russ muss sterben" -Somehow you decided that it applied only to the men-and therefore soldiers...- because of the masculine "Der".That's a bit dubious.The picture was taken when tens of millions of Russian civilians lived in Germany occupied territories.
The German soldiers could interpret it as they wished...

michael mills
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Re: Life in Occupied Russia

#113

Post by michael mills » 24 Jul 2010, 05:35

"Der Russ muss sterben" -Somehow you decided that it applied only to the men-and therefore soldiers...- because of the masculine "Der".That's a bit dubious.
As I wrote previously, paratatruc, if you will take the trouble to look at the earlier messages, the pro-Soviet contributors to this forum always claim that the Russian words "nemets" and "nemtsy" are masculine, and therefore denote only German men, not German women and children.

I am applying the same logic to the sign written in German. If "ubei nemtsa" means "kill the German man", and excludes killing German women and children, then we must interpret the sentence "Der Russe muss sterben" as "The Russian man must die", therefore excluding Russian women and children.

The point is that the same logic must apply to both cases.

The underlying message contained in the German sentence is in essence "kill the Russian before he kills us Germans". It assumes a situation of "kill or be killed". The Russian who poses a threat to the lives of the German soldiers who wrote the sentence is obviously the soldier in the Red Army, and perhaps also the partisan.

To contextualise the scene shown in the photo, it reflects the German propaganda theme that the Red Army posed a threat to the existence of the German people, an alleged threat that had been removed by the German attack of 22 June 1941 and the destruction of huge numbers of Red Army men (but which came true in 1945, at least in part).

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