Life in Occupied Russia

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Landser
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#46

Post by Landser » 05 Dec 2004, 20:30

Partisans=terrorists=insurgents.

Always depends what side your on,how you look at it.

Just read in the news Iraq's children are starving at twice the rate since 2002.
postwar rations in the US Zone were 1500 kcal in 1946, and no one is accusing the Americans of deliberate starvation.
Now that was not war time.But was deliberately planned.

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#47

Post by David Thompson » 05 Dec 2004, 20:44

Landser -- You said, in response to this quote:
postwar rations in the US Zone were 1500 kcal in 1946, and no one is accusing the Americans of deliberate starvation.

Now that was not war time.But was deliberately planned.


Let's talk about deliberate planning for a moment, and return to the subject of the Nazi-occupied portion of the USSR (my emphases):

2 May 1941
1. The war can only be continued if all armed forces are fed by Russia in the third year of war.

2. There is no doubt that as a result many millions of people will be starved to death if we take out of the country the things necessary for us.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 129#552129
23 May 1941
It can be assumed that the present crops are not greater than in the pre-World War I period, despite an expansion of the cultivated areas * * * The grain surplus of Russia is decisively determined not by the size of the crop but by the level of domestic consumption. Even a small decrease of 30 kgms. per person of the population (220 kgms. instead of 250 kgms.) and a decrease of the ration for horses of 25 will create an export surplus equalling almost the amount prevailing in peace-time.

This fact is the key upon which our actions and our economic policy must be based.
For:--

a. Doubtless, war activities will decrease production in the beginning and possibly -- depending upon the amount of destruction -- for many years. An increase in production will require years.

b. Since Germany and Europe, respectively, require surplus under all circumstances, the consumption must be decreased correspondingly. The examples given above show the extent to which the amount of surplus can be increased by a limitation of consumption.

c. Such a decrease of consumption, contrary to the territories so far occupied, is feasible here because the principal food surplus area is clearly separated from the principal deficit area. Contrary to territory under the General Gouvernement, the Protectorate, France and Belgium, here no mixture of deficit and surplus areas such as would prevent a seizure due to black market, or direct contacts between producer and consumer.

The surplus territories are situated in the black soil district (that is, in the south and south-east) and in the Caucasus. The deficit areas are principally located in the forest zone of the north.

Therefore, an isolation of the black soil areas must in any case place greater or lesser surpluses in these regions at our disposal. The consequences will be cessation of supplies to the entire forest zone, including the essential industrial centers of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

* * *

1. All industry in the deficit area, particularly the manufacturing industries in the Moscow and Petersburg regions as well as the Ural industrial region, will be abandoned. It may be assumed that these regions today absorb an annual 5-10 million tons from the food production zone.

2. The Trans-Caucasian oil district will have to be excepted, although it is a deficit area. This source of oil, cotton, manganese, copper, silk and tea must continue to be supplied with food in any case, for special political and economic reasons.

3. No further exceptions with a view to preserving one or the other industrial region or industrial enterprise must be permitted.

4. Industry can only be preserved insofar as it is located in the surplus region. This applies, apart from the above-mentioned oilfield regions in the Caucasus, particularly to the heavy industries in the Donets district (Ukraine). Only the future will show to what extent it will prove possible to maintain in full these industries, and in particular the Ukrainian manufacturing industries, after the withdrawal of the food surpluses required by Germany.

The following consequences result from this situation, which has received the approval of the highest authorities, since it is in accord with the political tendencies (preservation of the "small" Russians, preservation of the Caucasus, of the Baltic provinces, of White Russia to the prejudice of the Great Russians):

I. For the forest belt

a. Production in the forest belt (the food-deficit area) will become "naturalized," similar to the events during the World War and the Communistic tendencies of the war, etc., viz: agriculture in that territory will begin to become a mere "home production." The result will be that the planting of products destined for the market such as, in particular, flax and hemp, will be discontinued, and the area used therefor will be taken over for products for the producer (grain, potatoes, etc.) Moreover, discontinuance of fodder for that area will lead to the collapse of the dairy production and of pig-producing in that territory.

b. Germany is not interested in the maintenance of the productive power of these territories, except for supplying the troops stationed there.

The population, as in the old days, will utilize arable land for growing its own food. It is useless to expect grain or other surpluses to be produced. Only after many years can these extensive regions be intensified to an extent that they might produce genuine surpluses. The population of these areas, in particular the urban population, will have to face most serious distress from famine. It will be necessary to divert the population into the Siberian spaces. Since rail transport is out of the question, this too, will be an extremely difficult problem.

c. In this situation, Germany will only draw substantial advantages by quick, non-recurrent seizure, i. e. it will be vitally necessary to make the entire flax harvest available for German needs, not only the fibers but also the oleaginous seed.

It will also be necessary to utilize for German purposes the livestock which has no fodder base of its own, i. e. it will be necessary to seize livestock holdings immediately, and to make them available to the troops not only for the moment, but in the long run, and also for exportation to Germany. Since fodder supplies will be cut off, pig and cattle holdings in these areas will of necessity drastically decline in the near future. If they are not seized by the Germans at an early date, they will be slaughtered by the population for its own use, without Germany getting anything out of it.

* * *

It has been demanded by the Fuehrer that the reduction in the meat ration should be made good by the fall. This can only be achieved by the most drastic seizures of Russian livestock holdings, particularly in areas which are in a favorable transport situation in relation to Germany * * *

In respect of flax cultivation, too, the German economy will be interested in these territories. On the other hand, if at all possible, it must be attempted to treat these territories leniently, for political reasons: the conflict between White Russians and Lithuanians on one hand against Great Russians on the other. Only the future will show to what extent this is possible.

* * *

In future, Southern Russia must turn its face towards Europe. Its food surpluses, however, will only be paid for if it purchases its industrial consumer goods from Germany, of Europe. Russian competition from the forest zone must therefore be abolished. It follows from all that has been said that the German administration in these territories may well attempt to mitigate the consequences of the famine which undoubtedly will take place, and to accelerate the return to primitive agricultural conditions. An attempt might be made to intensify cultivation in these areas by expanding the acreage under potatoes or other important food crops giving a high yield. However, these measures will not avert famine. Many tens of millions of people in this area will become redundant and will either die or have to emigrate to Siberia. Any attempt to save the population there from death by starvation by importing surpluses from the black soil zone would be at the expense of supplies to Europe. It would reduce Germany's staying power in the war, an would undermine Germany's and Europe's power to resist the blockade. This must be clearly and absolutely understood. The manufacturing industries in Belgium and France are much more important for Germany and the German war effort than those in Russia. It is therefore much more essential to safeguard food supplies to those countries through surpluses from the East than to make an ambitious attempt to preserve Russian industry in the food-consuming zone. One must always bear in mind that the Great Russian people, whether under Tsarism or Bolshevism, is always an irreconcilable enemy not only of Germany, but also of Europe. From this it also follows that there can be no question of introducing marketing regulations or food rationing in these territories. Rationing would establish a claim against the German administration on the part of the population, and such a claim must be rejected beforehand.

* * *
In conclusion, the principles must be pointed out once more: under the Bolshevik system Russia has, purely out of power motives, withdrawn from Europe and thus upset the European equilibrium based on division of labor. Our task is to re-integrate Russia with the European division of labor, and it involves, of necessity, the destruction of the existing economic equilibrium within the Soviet Union. Thus, it is not important, under any circumstances, to preserve what has existed, but what matters is a deliberate turning away from the existing situation and introducing Russian food resources into the European framework. This will inevitably result in an extinction of industry as well as of a large part of the people in what so far have been the food-deficit areas.

It is impossible to state an alternate in sufficiently hard and severe terms.

* * *

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 155#552155
20 June 1941
The job of feeding the German people stands, this year, without a doubt, at the top of the list of Germany's claims on the East; and here the southern territories and the northern Caucasus will have to serve as a balance for the feeding of the German people. We see absolutely no reason for any obligation on our part to feed also the Russian people with the products of that surplus-territory. We know that this is a harsh necessity, bare of any feelings. Very extensive evacuation will be necessary, without any doubt, and it is sure that the future will hold very hard years in store for the Russians.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 157#552157
If you would like to contrast the wartime diet of the Nazi-occupied USSR with the rations afforded the German people by the US in 1945-1946, I'd be happy to provide that information as well. We can also discuss the Nazi allocation of food to their 5 million + slave laborers as well. That way the readers can see whether the comparison of postwar US policies to Nazi policies in their occupied territories is apt.


295th
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Famine as Policy?

#48

Post by 295th » 05 Dec 2004, 21:11

Only to point out that despite Christian Gerlach's PhD thesis, there is a debate about what constituted Nazi policy during the war. Stefan Scheil, for instance, argues that during the war 2,000 kcalories were planned for the local population, and that the radical elimination of people planned in the Generalplan Ost was to be postponed to the end of the war. For instance, the massive death of Russian POWs in 1941 was mainly due to the sheer lack of available food, which then led to the decision to channel the little food to the German army instead of the POWs. Had the food been available (not burned by Stalin's order), the POWs would not have been left to starve. A cruel decision born of necessity is not the same as a premeditated action.

I'm just hinting that there is a debate about whether the hunger was part of policy, or a result of the lack of food. Here is the link (alas, you can't go straight to the discussion--once at the Nachrichtendienst fuer Historiker site, click Forum, then Barbarossa). The site is rather anti-Wehrmacht, Scheil, and others supporting his argument (Arnold, Bitzer), have to show a lot of sources. http://www.nfhdata.de/premium/index.shtml

Manfred Oldenburg, another of those modern German historians who are very negative against the Wehrmacht, and in doubt assume the worst, in his recent Ideologie und militärisches Kalkül. Die Besatzungspolitik der Wehrmacht in der Sowjetunion 1942 (reviewed in the Frankfurter Allgemeine on Sept. 24, 2004), admits that the hunger resulted not from ideology (such as a extermination policy), but necessity--there simply was no food in sufficient quantities for army and civilians. He also notes that in December-January 1941, on the Crimea, the famine would have been much worse had German soldiers not, against orders, given from their own very meagre rations to the local civilians. The area commander, von Manstein, wanted good relations with locals but had issued the order to keep his own soldiers alive--and yet they shared.


8)

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#49

Post by David Thompson » 05 Dec 2004, 21:25

295th -- You said:
For instance, the massive death of Russian POWs in 1941 was mainly due to the sheer lack of available food, which then led to the decision to channel the little food to the German army instead of the POWs. Had the food been available (not burned by Stalin's order), the POWs would not have been left to starve. A cruel decision born of necessity is not the same as a premeditated action.
This is implausible, particularly since the Germans didn't intend to give any food to the captive population of the USSR in the first place. Instead, their plan relied on taking food, per this pre-invasion memo of 2 May 1941:
1. The war can only be continued if all armed forces are fed by Russia in the third year of war.

2. There is no doubt that as a result many millions of people will be starved to death if we take out of the country the things necessary for us.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 129#552129
As described above ( http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 181#591181 ), they planned even before the invasion to ship all the food they could seize back to Germany or German Army depots, and leave the population with a sprinkling of crumbs. The fact that POWs were later dying of starvation and malnutrition in late 1941 accorded with the original German plan of early 1941, which envisioned the policy deaths of "tens of millions" of people in the USSR by starvation, per this pre-invasion memo of 23 May 1941:
In future, Southern Russia must turn its face towards Europe. Its food surpluses, however, will only be paid for if it purchases its industrial consumer goods from Germany, of Europe. Russian competition from the forest zone must therefore be abolished. It follows from all that has been said that the German administration in these territories may well attempt to mitigate the consequences of the famine which undoubtedly will take place, and to accelerate the return to primitive agricultural conditions. An attempt might be made to intensify cultivation in these areas by expanding the acreage under potatoes or other important food crops giving a high yield. However, these measures will not avert famine. Many tens of millions of people in this area will become redundant and will either die or have to emigrate to Siberia. Any attempt to save the population there from death by starvation by importing surpluses from the black soil zone would be at the expense of supplies to Europe. It would reduce Germany's staying power in the war, an would undermine Germany's and Europe's power to resist the blockade. This must be clearly and absolutely understood. The manufacturing industries in Belgium and France are much more important for Germany and the German war effort than those in Russia. It is therefore much more essential to safeguard food supplies to those countries through surpluses from the East than to make an ambitious attempt to preserve Russian industry in the food-consuming zone. One must always bear in mind that the Great Russian people, whether under Tsarism or Bolshevism, is always an irreconcilable enemy not only of Germany, but also of Europe.

Furthermore, the line of reasoning which tries to present the appalling death rates of POWs in German custody as some kind of post-invasion "accident" or "mistake" is also belied by the pre-existing German policy of deliberate mistreatment of Soviet POWs. For numerous documents and statistics refuting this view that the deaths were the result of "accident" or "mistake," see:

Documents on German treatment of Soviet POWs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=62262
Sumy POW Camp, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41839
Khorol POW Camp, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41853
Kremenchuk POW Camp, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41857
Rovno POW Camp, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41861
Starokonstantinov POW Camp, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41899
Tyvrov POW Camp, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41905
Lvov POW Camps, Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41915
Annihilation of Soviet prisoners of war in Belorussia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8034
Another cause of death of Soviet POWs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=9173

You also said:
I'm just hinting that there is a debate about whether the hunger was part of policy, or a result of the lack of food.
I'm familiar with the debate. It is part of a larger effort to minimize or excuse Nazi war crimes. In this particular case, the revisionist effort is easy to counter. The three extracts from contemporaneous German documents which I gave above ( http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 181#591181 ) are dated before the invasion of the USSR, when the amount of available food was still undetermined. Consequently, the loss of food due to Stalin's post-invasion scorched earth policies was not a factor in the German pre-invasion famine plans.

Furthermore, I haven't read about massive death rates as a result of famine among the German units which guarded the Soviet POWs. They appear to have been well-fed. In fact, I have never read about German troops dying of starvation during WWII. Do you have anything on that?

295th
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Politically correct party line

#50

Post by 295th » 06 Dec 2004, 03:50

The German troops in late 1941 were not well-fed, but hungry-though not starving, because the little food available was channeled to them.

What you assume to have been implemented is, at least in the opinion of academic historians such as Scheil, plans that were postponed for after the war. We can discuss whether Scheil is right or not.

If however you are going to use the Communist route of accusing outright doubters of your view of being by definition Holocaust deniers, then you can go and f... your politically correct arse, and I quick this forum. Go and enjoy your likeminded blather! :|

295th
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I want to quit

#51

Post by 295th » 06 Dec 2004, 03:59

Where is the button to disjoin?

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#52

Post by David Thompson » 06 Dec 2004, 04:34

PM Marcus Wendel. Adios.

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#53

Post by bratello » 06 Dec 2004, 08:32

David Thompson wrote: "...How does this diminish either Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya or the concept of a popular uprising?"

It does not diminish Zoya: she could have stayed home and alive, instead of risking her life behind the enemy lines, but it does diminish (or rather debunk) one of the myth that the Soviet schoolchildren were taught. It was unthinkable to even suggest that it was Russian peasants, not the Germans, who caught Zoya in the act of sabotage and gave her away to the Germans, not only knowing, but, probably willing, for her to be punished. That's where the bold type comes in and that's why it diminishes if not the popular uprising then at least the way it was presented officially. As to the Germans burning Russian villages and commiting atrocities, I read books and saw documentaries to that effect but, frankly, it has no relevance to a particular point I am trying to make.

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Landser
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#54

Post by Landser » 06 Dec 2004, 17:49

D T kind of reminds me of what Will Rogers once said:
"If you ever get to thinkin' you're a person of some importance, try ordering someone else's dog around."

:D



PS: Am always open for critizism!!!

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#55

Post by bratello » 06 Dec 2004, 19:45

DT wrote to 295th: "Are you trying to suggest that the Nazis didn't plan a famine in the area of the Soviet Union they occupied?"

I certainly hope that 295th was trying to suggest something like this since I'd like to believe that this Forum is about asking, suggesting, voicing an opinion. Be it (preferably) an educated question, suggestions or opinion or not. Even though I very much appreciate DT’s knowledge and ease in providing facts and figures (though I, personally, would avoid referring anybody to “Pravda” newspaper for most historical facts. Why not “Voelkischer Beobachter then?), it seems to me that the tone and the context of his remarks (see above) do not contribute to a healthy exchange of ideas which should be this Forum’s “raison d’etre” in the first place. Looks like 295th is gone. Too bad: he sounded knoweledgeable and was, hopefully, enough of an "agent provocateur" (even maybe a "revisionist") to make for a more interesting discussion. Revisionism will not obscure truth--dogmatism will.

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#56

Post by Obserwator » 06 Dec 2004, 19:46

Partisans=terrorists=insurgents.
Actually each of the terms describes a different kind of armed group of people.

David Thompson
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#57

Post by David Thompson » 06 Dec 2004, 21:21

bratello -- You remarked:
DT wrote to 295th: "Are you trying to suggest that the Nazis didn't plan a famine in the area of the Soviet Union they occupied?"

I certainly hope that 295th was trying to suggest something like this since I'd like to believe that this Forum is about asking, suggesting, voicing an opinion. Be it (preferably) an educated question, suggestions or opinion or not. Even though I very much appreciate DT’s knowledge and ease in providing facts and figures (though I, personally, would avoid referring anybody to “Pravda” newspaper for most historical facts. Why not “Voelkischer Beobachter then?), it seems to me that the tone and the context of his remarks (see above) do not contribute to a healthy exchange of ideas which should be this Forum’s “raison d’etre” in the first place. Looks like 295th is gone. Too bad: he sounded knoweledgeable and was, hopefully, enough of an "agent provocateur" (even maybe a "revisionist") to make for a more interesting discussion. Revisionism will not obscure truth--dogmatism will.
Let's look at your post point by point:

(1)
I certainly hope that 295th was trying to suggest something like this since I'd like to believe that this Forum is about asking, suggesting, voicing an opinion.
295th did not acknowledge his own opinions, even when directly asked. Instead, he referred to the opinions of others.

(2)
Even though I very much appreciate DT’s knowledge and ease in providing facts and figures (though I, personally, would avoid referring anybody to “Pravda” newspaper for most historical facts. Why not “Voelkischer Beobachter then?)
(a) You provided no source whatsoever for your claims, yet complained about my link to a Pravda article so that the readers could see what the discussion was about. What definitive, English-language translation of an official German, USSR or Russian government document about Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya (to use your words, "the way it was presented officially") would have been preferable for that purpose?

(b) For my references to Voelkischer Beobachter articles, see:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 876#571876
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 868#571868
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 278#571278
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 271#571271
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 994#564994
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 992#564992
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 491#558491

(3)
it seems to me that the tone and the context of his [David Thompson's] remarks (see above) do not contribute to a healthy exchange of ideas which should be this Forum’s “raison d’etre” in the first place.
You're entitled to your opinion, but since you felt the need to express it in public, why don't you explain specifically what you're talking about?

(4)
Looks like 295th is gone. Too bad: he sounded knoweledgeable and was, hopefully, enough of an "agent provocateur" (even maybe a "revisionist") to make for a more interesting discussion.
You can't have a "discussion" with someone who puts forth a point in someone else's name, and when it is challenged begins walking out, yelling over his shoulder about communist methods and auto-erotic fantasies.

(5)
Revisionism will not obscure truth--dogmatism will.
(a) 295th didn't admit to being a revisionist. A fair reading of his remarks is that he found the term "revisionist" personally insulting, even when applied to the third-party arguments of other people which he advanced. I noticed, however, that you didn't have the same reaction to the term.

(b) What "truth" do you contend was obscured in this thread?

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#58

Post by bratello » 06 Dec 2004, 22:57

DT, an admirable point by point response. It teaches to prepare one's "homework" better as a bare opinion isn't good enough when participating in a serious discussion. I wish you were my prof in MGU (i.e. Moscow State U). It still feel as 295th was somehow "treated" too abruptly by you. (Quitting as he did, did not serve neither him nor this Forum right. But that is a different story). Regards 'til next time.

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#59

Post by David Thompson » 06 Dec 2004, 23:03

We prize serious discussions here. 295th had the opportunity to answer and didn't take it, which was his choice. Until we next meet -- DT.

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#60

Post by michael mills » 23 Dec 2004, 01:31

The claim that the German occupation authorities planned a famine in the occupied Soviet territories for the purpose of reducing the native population is an exaggeration based on a misinterpretation of the documentary evidence.

What the German authorities planned was to take as much food out of the occupied territories as was needed to feed the German army of occupation and to supplement the rations of the German population.

Whether or not a famine ensued would depend on how much food was left over after the German authorities had extracted the amounts they planned to take.

The German documents show that the planners in the Reich Ministry of Food Supply believed that there would not be enough food left over for the local civilian population and that a famine would inevitably result.

They foresaw two possible outcomes of that famine, or a combination of the two;

- either large numbers of the civilian population wold have to migrate to the East out of the area of German occupation

- or else millions would die of starvation.

The German planners were quite ruthless in their willingness to let millions of the civilian population die, but the death of millions was not their goal. Rather it was the feeding of the German population by whatever means, even at the expense of other groups.

As a matter of fact, the expected huge famine did not occur during the winter of 1941-42, and millions did not die, although there was malnutrition and an elevated death-rate.

There were two main reasons for the non-occurrence of the expected death-toll;

1. Large numbers of city and town-dwellers moved to the countryside, where alternative sources of food were found.

2. The migration of large numbers of the population to the East had already occurred, in the form of the mass evacuation carried out by the Soviet Governmetn immediately after the German invasion.

(That mass movement of people to areas where there was not an adequate food supply and preparations had not been made led to wide-spread malnutrition and starvation in the unoccupied part of the Soviet Union).

In the Spring of 1942, when the German authorities found that the anticipated mass-starvation of the local population had not occurred (with the exception of the high mortality among the Soviet POWs), those authorities did not undertake any alternative measures to ensure a high death-rate among the Soviet population. If anything, they undertook measures designed to improve agriculture and the food supply (both for export to Germany and for the local people), such as a limited land reform.

That proves that the aim of the German occupation authorities was not the decimation of the local population for its own sake.

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