*Experimental SELF-PROPELLED GUNS of the Allies - help!*

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Bob_Mackenzie
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#106

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 04 Jan 2006, 00:35

I thought the ZiS-30 was this

Image

Cheers

Bob

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BIGpanzer
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#107

Post by BIGpanzer » 04 Jan 2006, 02:07

Hello, Bob!
Soviets sometimes (not often) used identical names for serial and experimental AFVs.

The photo you posted is the photo of quite well known Soviet light anti-tank SPG ZiS-30 (57mm AT gun ZiS-2, mounted on armored prime mover T-20 "Komsomolets"). That was the first Soviet serial SPG (101 were produced during 21 September-15 October 1941).

But also experimental SPG ZiS-30 existed: the same 57mm AT gun, but mounted on half-track ZiS-41. It was built in July 1941 and I am trying to find some additional info and photos of it.


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#108

Post by BIGpanzer » 04 Jan 2006, 02:07

Some sources mention experimental ZiS-30 on half-truck as ZiS-41 (armored half-truck ZiS-42 with 57mm AT gun, 1942). In 1943 the experimental 37mm AA SPG on armored half-truck ZiS-42 was built.
Note: serial half-truck ZiS-42 was equipped with armored cab when used as the chassis for those experimental SPGs, they were not fully armored SPGs.

http://henk.fox3000.com/Aer/ar7204.jpg (usual unarmored ZiS-42M with 37mm AA gun)
http://henk.fox3000.com/Aer/ar7253.jpg (ZiS-41 - 57mm AT gun, mounted on armored ZiS-42; note the real photo also)
If the links don't work correct, please, see the whole page http://henk.fox3000.com/Aer.htm

BIGpanzer

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AMVAS
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#109

Post by AMVAS » 04 Jan 2006, 09:04

Alex, by the way, do you have any drawing or picture of the Soviet 152-mm SPG of coast defence (engineer A. Tolochkov, 1933), I`ve wrote shortly above. It was a never built project, but of very interesting and progressive design.
In "Otechestvennye Bronirovannye mashiny" vol.1. you can find its outline.
AMVAS, do you know how much experimental SPGs SU-76K (76.2mm recoilless gun, mounted on tankette T-27; see my post from 8 April here with the photo) were produced by Soviets?
Some sources mention that only one were built in 1933 and during ground tests its recoilless gun was exploded because of double loading by mistake. But another sources report that a few were built in addition to several dozens of such recoilless SPGs, based on different trucks and even motorcycles.
I know only about one experimental vehicle which really suffered from unexpected explosion (tester was killed). Later this vehicle was repared.

Regards,
Alex

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#110

Post by BIGpanzer » 04 Jan 2006, 21:05

Hi, Alex!
Thanks a lot for advices! I've found the drawing of Soviet 152-mm SPG of coast defence in the book you've mentioned.
As for the accident with SU-76K (76.2mm recoilless gun, mounted on tankette T-27) - I believe that was some technical problem, not human mistake as that recoilless gun was fully automatic and operated via remote control within tankette.


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#111

Post by BIGpanzer » 05 Jan 2006, 00:47

Lets switch our conversation to British SPGs. I already posted here some info about British SPGs of 1920s-1930s. But I couldn't find detailed info about experimental light AA SPGs. For example, light tank Carden-Loyd Mk.V with two water cooled AA 12.7mm MG Vickers instead turret. Does anybody know something about that AFV, any photos....

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#112

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 05 Jan 2006, 01:55

BIGpanzer wrote: http://henk.fox3000.com/Aer/ar7253.jpg (ZiS-41 - 57mm AT gun, mounted on armored ZiS-42; note the real photo also)
If the links don't work correct, please, see the whole page http://henk.fox3000.com/Aer.htm

BIGpanzer
Thanks - but I only see pictures of models no pics of the real prototype

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Bob

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#113

Post by BIGpanzer » 05 Jan 2006, 02:25

Hello, Bob!
Yes, these are the photos of models. Sorry, I could find only them at the moment.
I am also trying to fing the photos of those experimental Soviet half-truck SPGs. Nevertheless, as I've mentioned in my last letter, link http://henk.fox3000.com/Aer/ar7253.jpg (ZiS-41, if the direct link doesn't work, please, see the whole page and find ZiS-41) shows the model and small real photo of the prototype in the left upper corner of the picture.


BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 05 Jan 2006, 02:34, edited 1 time in total.

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#114

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 05 Jan 2006, 02:29

Oh yes _ I can see it now - thanks :)

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#115

Post by BIGpanzer » 05 Jan 2006, 03:58

I am searching some info about British light AA SPGs at the moment, but by chance just found some additional info about Soviet SPGs, based on light tank T-26, we discussed a lot above.

The supporter of their construction was marshal Tukhachevsky, but after his arrest and execution all further work was stopped. So despite the fact that SU-5 SPGs with 76mm, 122mm or 152mm guns were very progressive constructions for 1930s, and "artillery tank" AT-1 was the first self-propelled infantry assault gun in the world (German StuG III was based on its design) Soviet Army didn't have serial SPGs till 1942.

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#116

Post by BIGpanzer » 06 Jan 2006, 02:23

Friends!
Could anybody help me with the photos of British light tank MkV or MkVI, armed with 2x12.7mm Vickers AA MG?

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Michael Emrys
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#117

Post by Michael Emrys » 06 Jan 2006, 05:48

BIGpanzer,

Can you confirm that they mounted 12.7mm Vickers in the AA tanks? The only MGs I can find mentioned in Chamberlain & Ellis are Besas. One experimental Mk. V with twin Besa 15mm. There was another single experimental example based on the Mk. V using a Boulton-Paul turret with quad Brownings. Caliber of the Brownings isn't listed, but I would incline towards .303" since it is described as an aircraft turret, and I think all of those were in .303".

Apparently all the production models were based on the Mk. VI chasis and they used a quad Besa in 7.92mm caliber.

I don't know if this is of any use to you...

Michael

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#118

Post by BIGpanzer » 06 Jan 2006, 10:06

Hello, Michael!
Yes, I also could find specifications and photos of only the following British light AA SPGs (1940):
1. MkV with 2x15mm Besa instead turret (1 copy):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... BesaAA.jpg
2. MkV with 4x7.62m Browning in Boulton-Paul turret and tiltable armored shields (1 copy):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... PaulAA.jpg

The problem is that several sources mention that one of the first British light AA SPGs was light tank with 2x12.7mm water-cooled "Vickers". That experimental SPG was more successfull during trials than experimental AA SPGs based on Vickers II and Vickers-medium chassis, armed with 7.7mm AA Hotchkiss MG only. Probably, twin "Vickers" MG were mounted in light tank MkVIII chassis without turret ( http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Grea ... k-A4E4.jpg ) and had the designation something like A4E*. As that was early experimental model (beginning of 1930s) Chamberlain didn't mention it in his book.

Best regards, BIGpanzer

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#119

Post by Michael Emrys » 07 Jan 2006, 10:11

BIGpanzer wrote:As that was early experimental model (beginning of 1930s) Chamberlain didn't mention it in his book.
Yes, that might explain it. Sometimes they go into the origins of tanks, but since this was a variant rather than a mainstream vehicle, they wouldn't devote so much limited space to it. Hmmm, need a different source. I have been reorganizing my library of late and turning up some volumes I haven't seen for years. :) If I find anything useful, I'll post it, although given the special nature of this vehicle, it's not likely that anything I have will cover it. Pity, as this stuff is interesting too, as I'm sure you are aware.

:D

Michael

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Soviet heavy anti-tank SPGs

#120

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 Jan 2006, 22:53

Thnaks for the reply, Michael!
I am still trying to find something about that British AA SPG, but unsuccessfully at the moment :(

In parallel I would like to post here some info about Soviet experimental anti-tank SPG of 1944-1945. I just found this info yesterday 8) .
I found quite interesting info as me seems about experimental Soviet anti-tank SPGs with guns of high power. After great tank battle of Kursk in summer 1943 Soviet engineers began to develop new SPGs, which were intended for combats with new German heavy AFVs and for close support of infantry and mechanized units during assaults of fortified positions and towns.
The main requirements were the high muzzle velocity and long gun range.

Ural Engineering Plant “Uralmash”, Central Artillery Design Office, Central Design Office “Transmash”, Engineering Plant No. 172 developed and built several heavy AT SPGs in 1944-1945. Serial Soviet heavy AT SPGs ISU-122 were armed with 122mm gun A-19 mod. 1931-1937 (length 46.3 calibers) or 122mm gun D-25T mod. 1943 (length 47 calibers) with muzzle velocity ~800m/s, which was not sufficient according to new army requirements.

I. Central Artillery Design Office (chief engineer V.G.Grabin) developed ISU-122BM and ISU-130 (both were based on IS-1 heavy tank chassis).
ISU-122BM was armed with the powerful semi-automatic gun 122BM (length 59.5 calibers, ammunition 25 25-kg shells of separate loading, muzzle velocity 1000 m/s, range of fire 9800 m), but hydraulic recoil brake of the gun was placed under the barrel, which decreased the stability of SPG during fire.

ISU-130 was armed with naval 130mm gun B-13 (length 54,7 calibers, range of fire 12300 m, ammunition 25 33.4-kg shells).
See my post here from 30 March with the photo of ISU-130, additional photos http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu122/isu130_4.jpg & http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu122/isu130_2.jpg
It was found during the ground tests of ISU-122BM and ISU-130 in autumn-winter 1944 and summer 1945 that accuracy of fire was quite low; also rate of fire (2 shells/min) was also low for AT role. Both SPGs had average stability during fire and small angles of fire (traversing 5-6 degrees each side, elevation –2 - + 15 degrees). The improvement of both SPGs was rejected because of the end of WWII.
In summer 1945 new 85mm gun N-3-457 with high accuracy of fire was developed for SU-100 chassis, but the work was stopped because of the end of WWII.

II. Design office of Engineering Plant No. 172 (chief engineer I.I. Ivanov) developed improved version of serial ISU-122, armed with semi-automatic 122mm gun BL-9 (length 59 calibers, ammunition 24 25-kg armor-piercing and high-explosive shells, muzzle velocity up to 1100 m/s, range of fire 10700 m) and 12.7mm MG DShK. In June 1944 new SPG ISU-122-1 was built (weight 47 t, speed 34 km/h). It was tested in September 1944-May 1945 and was rejected by army because of the end of WWII.
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu122/isu122_11.jpg (ISU-122-1)

USU-122-3 with 122mm experimental gun S-26-1 (length 59.5 calibers, range of fire 16000 m, rate of fire 1.5-1.8 shells/min, ammunition 25 25-kg shells, muzzle velocity 1000 m/s) was built in summer 1944 also. Disadvantages - low accuracy of fire, insufficient maneuvrability because of long gun, low observability.

Also ISU-152-1 was built in April 1944 (weight 47 t, speed 34 km/h), armed with 152.4mm experimental gun BL-8 (range of fire 18500 m, ammunition 21 shells, muzzle velocity 850 m/s). That heavy AT SPG had quite low maneuverability because of long gun barrel (full length of SPG - 12.05 m), also the gun was quite unreliable.
Improved ISU-152-2 was built in August 1944 (armed with 152.4mm semi-automatic gun BL-10) but some disadvantages were not corrected still (small angles of fire, long gun barrel - 5.38 m sweep).
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu152/isu152bm_1.jpg (ISU-152-1)
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu152/isu152bm_2.jpg (ISU-152-1)
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu152/isu152bm_3.jpg (ISU-152-1)

The same design office developed also AT SPG, based on T-34 chassis with 122mm gun BL-20 (length 59 calibers, traversing 10 degrees each side, elevation –1 - + 25, rate of fire 10 shells/min, range of fire 17000 m). New SPG had light weight (only 33.1 t), better speed and maneuverability because of T-34 chassis instead of IS-1 chassis. The project was also abandoned because of the end of WWII.
Also two experimental SPGs, based on T-34-85 chassis and armed with 122mm guns D-25S (weight 31.5 t, speed 55 km/h) were built in 1944.

III. Ural Engneering Plant “Uralmash” (chief engineer of the artillery design office – F.F.Petrov) built quite successful SU-85BM-I in December 1943 (weight 31 t, speed 55 km/h, 85mm gun D-5S-85BM with muzzle velocity 900-1050 m/s and ammunition of 48 shells), but because of development of more powerful SU-100 that work was stopped. SU-85BM-I could penetrate the front armor of German Pz.VIE "Tiger" from 1500-2000 m, but because of quite long gun its maneuvrability decreased.
The same design office developed also AT SPG, based on serial SU-100 with semi-automatic 85mm gun D-10 (length 58.4 calibers, rate of fire 10 shells/min, range of fire 13200 m, ammunition 28 9.5-kg shells, muzzle velocity up to 1050 m/s). Interesting, that the front part of the gun barrel was smoothbore. New SU-85BM was tested in January 1945 but the accuracy of fire was quite low, also accuracy life of the barrel was insufficient.
So new improved 85-mm gun was developed (D-10-85A) and installed into serial SU-100. New SPG could penetrate 155mm armor from 1000-2000 m distance, but accuracy of fire and stability during fire remained insufficient.
http://www.weapon.df.ru/tanks/sovsau/medium/d-10-85.jpg (SU-85BM)

Those 122mm-152mm AT guns in most cases had smoothbore head of the barrel for increasing the muzzle velocity (but this caused also the decreasing of barrel accuracy life) and explosive gas-evacuation system after firing a shot.

Photo of the Soviet heavy anti-tank SPG ISU-122BM (1 copy, 1944)
is from http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu122/isu122_13_.jpg
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ISU-122BM heavy AT SPG.jpg
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Last edited by BIGpanzer on 09 Jan 2006, 04:04, edited 2 times in total.

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