*Experimental SELF-PROPELLED GUNS of the Allies - help!*

[BIGpanzer]

Thanks for the info, johnestauffer!
SU-76I was the Russian design, so it belongs to the Allies category for sure, as me seems.
I made a small search and what I found:

Even in late 1942 the Russians had quite a lot trophy Pz.III, so it was decided to use some of them as SPG chassis.
SU-76I was based on Pz.III (different modifications) chassis and armed with Soviet 76mm tank cannon F-34. In 1943 210 such SPG were produced by plant No. 40 (near Moscow).
Specifications: weight 22,5t; crew 4 men; armament 76mm F-34 + 98 shells; armor 10-60 mm; engine Maybach HL 120TRM 265 hp; speed 50 km/h; range 180 km.
SU-76I was used in combats during 1943 by several tank regiments.

Also Russian engineers developed SG-122A (German trophy StuG III with 122mm Soviet howitzer M-30) - 8 SPGs were produced. Also several SU-122/T-3 (Pz.III with 122mm howitzer) and SU-122/T-4 (Pz.IV with 122mm howitzer) were produced.

When the serial production of the native SU-76, SU-85 and SU-122 SPG started in large scale, the German trophy tank chassis became not so important as in 1942.

Regards, BIGpanzer

[SiG I]

Hello BIGpanzer!
You asked for info about Polish SP guns. Here's a site that contains some good info about the TKD and other designs: http://republika.pl/derela/tkd.htm Allso, I read an article on polish sp-guns on this site http://pedg.org/panzer/public/website/pol.htm some time ago. It mentioned also a tankette armed with a 20mm gun. That design definitely saw action. Unfortunately, the site doesn't seem to work properly any more.

About the SU-76i that you claim is a conversion of captured PzIII: My understanding is that the conversion was allready done by the Germans (StuG III). The Soviets simply captured the StuG and replaced german 75mm gun with soviet 76,2mm gun.

Regards!

[BIGpanzer]

Hi, SiG I!
Thanks for the interesting links about Polish SP guns, based on TK-3 tankette chassis. I know the last one, but it really doesn't work now, unfortunately. AFAIK Polish engineers developed several experimental models of such SP guns in 1930s.
As for the Polish TKS tankette armed with 20mm FK automatic cannon (250 shells) - the first prototype was built in January 1939. It was planned to rearm 150 TKS tankettes, but only 40 were ready before September 1939 and handed over to 10th Mechanized Brigade as commander's and light anti-tank vehicles. They were used quite successfully against German tanks in defensive battles. The most famous fact took place 18 September 1939, when TKS with 20mm cannon (commander officer cadet R. Orlik), supporting the attack of Volhynian cavalry brigade, destroyed three Pz.Kpfw. 35(t) tanks!
Specifications of TKS with 20mm cannon: weight 2800 kg, crew 2 men, engine Polski Fiat 122AC 46 hp, speed 40 km/h, range 180 km, armor 4-10 mm.

About the SU-76i that you claim is a conversion of captured PzIII: My understanding is that the conversion was allready done by the Germans (StuG III). The Soviets simply captured the StuG and replaced german 75mm gun with soviet 76,2mm gun.

No, you are wrong in this case, SiG I, sorry. I didn't claim the SU-76I as a conversion of Pz.III - this is a historical and technical fact. SU-76I was really the Soviet conversion of captured German Pz.Kpfw. III (different modifications) and were produced by Soviet tank plant No.40 in 1943 (201 SP guns + 20 commander's with more powerful radiostation and commander's turret from Pz.III) because of large losses of native SP guns SU-76 at that time and many captured German tanks after Stalingrad battle. Soviet engineers developed the completely new armored cabin (compartment) for 76,2mm F-34 (S-1) gun instead the Pz.III tank turret (also see the photos and compare SU-76I and StuG III, they are completely different!). Two SU-76I were found, restored and preserved in Russian museums.
SU-76I: http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/su76i/su76i_08.jpg
StuG III: http://www.fronta.cz/pics/clanky/tanky/stug_iii.jpg
You can find a huge amount of photos of StuG III and several of SU-76I with the help of Google, try to compare them. Also read, please, the history of development of SU-76I: http://www.battlefield.ru/su76i.html ,for example.

Nevertheless, captured StuG IIIs (renamed as SU-75) also served in Soviet Army during WWII and a few of them were rearmed with Soviet 76,2mm guns by workshops of Soviet tank divisions. But they were not SU-76I! Also two Stug III were rearmed with Soviet 122mm howitzers as experimental vehicles.

[SiG I]

Hi!
I did some reading about the Su76i. I must admit now that I was wrong and it is inded a conversion of PzIII.
Thanks for pointing it out.

BTW: Do you know if any other country used SP-guns based on the TK-3? Yugoslavia, perhaps?

[BIGpanzer]

Hello, SiG I!

As for Yugoslavia, you, probably, know that Yugoslavian Army had eight Csech-built T-32 (S-I-D) tankettes, armed with 37mm A-3UVJ cannon (42 shells). At first they were used for training at Zemun cavalry school. Those eight tankettes were the single real power of small Yugoslavian armored forces in April 1941 (50 Yugoslavian R-35 tanks were armed with obsolete 37mm SA18 cannons). Four tankettes heroically participated in battles with German tanks (four other were repaired at that time) and all eight were destroyed, some by their crews to prevent capture.
Also the T-3D (S-I-J) with more powerful 47mm Skoda A9J cannon was developed for Yugoslavia by Skoda, but only one prototype was finished till breakup of Czechoslovakia.

As for the Polish TKS z nkm 20A with 20mm FK-A wz.38 cannon - 23 were in service in 1939 (71st armored division had 4, 81st division had 3, 11th company of scout tanks had 4, 101st company had 4, squadron of scout tanks from 10th cavalry brigade had 4 and squadron of scout tanks from Warsaw armored brigade had 4). They used quite successfully against German Pz.I and Pz.II (could penetrate 25mm armor from 600 m distance). If the Polish Army had not 23 AT tankettes, but 300 as planned, the German tanks had more problems. Probably, several Polish AT tankettes were captured by Germans and given to Hungary, Romania and Croatia.

Yugoslavian tankette T-32 (Czech S-I-D): http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Czech/SId-1937.jpg

BIGpanzer

[Bob_Mackenzie]

This appears to be the same weapon, don't you think? It seems to be a 155mm GPF.

To resurect an old thread - thats definately a 194mm GPF and its definately at Aberdeen. Ive been there and have more pics of it. What you are seing is only HALF the vehicle. There is a similar tractor part with a petrol engine linked to an eliecrical genorator. The electrical power is supplied to the tracks of BOTH parts of the vehicle

[BIGpanzer]

Thanks for the info, Bob_Mackenzie!
I also found the mention (and, probably, even already posted the link here) that that heavy 194mm gun could be divided into two self-propelled parts for more easily transportation.
See the drawing: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/fran ... onosch.jpg

See also some info about that gun (find 194mm GPF along the list) here: http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/FYA.HTM

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

The second tractor carries ammunition.
The data on the second link seem doubtious.

Canon de 194 mm GPF (L/33.5) (Grande Puissance FILLIOUX)
Type : Tracked field gun (can easily fire at 360°)
Speed : 8-10 km/h (Panhard SUK4 M2 engine, 120 hp)
Crew : - men
Caliber : 194mm
Weight in action : 29600 kg
Elevation : 0° to +37°
Traverse : 360°
Rate of fire : 1-2 rpm
HE Shell
Maximum range : 20800 - 22500 m
Projectile weight : 44.9 kg
V° : 725 m/s
The companion ammunition tractor carried 60 shells. Only 50 pieces of this tracked SPA were in service in the French army in 1940. Several of these self-propelled guns were captured and used by German forces as the 19.4cm Kanone 485 (f) auf Selbstfahrlafette. There were for example 3 such guns in the Heer Artillerie Regiment 84 in 1942 (Army Group North in Russia).

An other French heavy SP mortar/howitzer uses the 280mm mortar/howitzer not a 220mm one.

Mortier de 280mm C (L/12) Mle1914 Schneider PF [version on plateform]
Type : heavy mortar/howitzer
Caliber : 280mm
Barrel length : 3352mm (2642mm rifling)
Weight in action : 16220 kg
Elevation : +10° to +60°
Traverse : 44°60'
Rate of fire : 4 shell every 5 minutes
HE Shell
Maximum range : 10950 m
Projectile weight : 205 kg (275 kg)
V° : 418 m/s
Used by the 6th battery of the 154e RAP (Régiment d'Artillerie de Position) against the Italian fort of Chaberton in the Alps.

Mortier de 280mm C (L/12) Mle1914 Schneider Ch (tracked SPA)
Type : heavy mortar/howitzer
Caliber : 280mm
Barrel length : 3352mm (2642mm rifling)
Weight in action : 26000 kg with 30 shells (+ 29000 kg for the companion ammunition tractor)
Elevation : +10° to +60°
Traverse : 360°
Rate of fire : 4 shell every 5 minutes
HE Shell
Maximum range : 10950 m
Projectile weight : 205 kg (275 kg)
V° : 418 m/s

There are several movies from British Pathé showing these SP guns moving and firing.

Regards,

David

[BIGpanzer]

Hello, David!
Thanks a lot for the interesting and knowledgable info as you always posted! Where were you when Grease_Spot and I discussed the origin of that gun, based on modern and old photos (see above)? The design of heavy French and US SP guns of 1920s was quite similar.

The second link is OK, but you need to skroll till 194mm GPF Or you mean not correct specifications for the gun, given there, probably.....


Best regards, BIGpanzer

[BIGpanzer]

I. I read the info that experimental 75mm SP gun was built in France in 1920s, using the chassis of wheel-track tank St. Chamond mod. 1921.
But I couldn't find any photos and specifications of that vehicle. Please, help!!!!!!!!!!!
Photo of the French St.Chamond tank mod. 1921 (not SPG, based on this chassis, the photo of which I am trying to find):
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/france/image4FT.JPG

II. I will be also very pleased if somebody help me with photos and any info of British light SPG of 1930s, based on tankette "Carden-Loyd" MkVI (47mm infantry gun, weight 1.7 t, armor 6-8 mm, speed 45 km/h, ammunition - 80 shells)


Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer

[BIGpanzer]

Hi, friends!
And one more question I am very interested in. Did Soviets used their experimental light SPGs during Spanish civil war, Soviet-Japanese military conflicts, Winter war or the first period of WWII?

AFAIK quite many models of light and medium self-propelled guns for infantry/cavalry/tank support were developed in USSR in 1930s. Me seems that only USSR had different types of experimental SPGs, based on the chassis of serial tanks, in 1930s.

1. Light tank T-18 (MS-1) and "key tank" T-19 chassis, armed with regimental 76mm gun mod. 1927 (1927-1931, experimental & projects)

2. Medium tank T-28 chassis, armed with 152mm mortar mod. 1931 + 2 frontal MGs (17.6 t; 400 hp engine; 37.5 km/h; 6 men; 1932, project). The mortar should have elevation angle up to 72 grades and rotational angle up to 60 grades.

3. The most successfull Soviet preWWII development - so called "small triplex" SU-5 (see my post here from 18 April with photos). That was 76mm divisional gun mod. 1902/1930 (SU-5-1), 122mm divisional howitzer mod. 1910/1930 (SU-5-2) or 152mm divisional mortar mod. 1931 (SU-5-3), based on the chassis of light tank T-26, equipped with spades. Near 15 were produced in 1934-1937 and successfully ground and operational tested.

4. Anti-aircraft 76mm SPG, based on light tank T-26 chassis (see my post here from 13 March with photos). 5 copies were produced since 1935. Fighting compartment was protected by tiltable armored shields.

5. Also quite successfull "artillery tanks" AT-1, based on strengthen chassis of light tank T-26, were built in 10 copies, 1936. See my post from 18 April with photos. They were armed with 76mm tank gun PS-3 and also were equipped with tiltable armored shields. AT-1 was the technical predecessor of the serial light tank BT-7A with 76mm gun.

6. Several experimental SPGs, based on tankette T-27, were produced: with 76mm regimental gun (1935, SU-27, ammunition and crew were carried on special trailer), with 76mm recoilless gun of L.V. Kurchevsky-type (1933, was equipped with automatic remote-acting system of direction, fire and reload(!) - see my post here from 8 April with photos).

7. Even anti-tank SPGs were developed in USSR in the end of 1930s, some prototypes were armed with 85mm guns (serial powerful AT SPGs appeared in USSR and Germany only during the middle of WWII).

So, please, any info about use of Soviet experimental SPGs of 1930s in any military conflict.

Best regards, BIGpanzer

PS. Any info about French and British experimental SPGs is also very welcome!!!!!

[BIGpanzer]

Just now found a small mention that Soviets used several SU-5-2 with 122mm howitzer, based on light tank T-26 chassis, in 1941 in Ukraine. Soviet Army officially had ~15 different SU-5 in June 1941, two SU-5-2 were successfully tested in the 7th mechanized corps in 1936. Also Soviet 2nd mechanized brigade, participated in the conflict with Japan (lake Khasan, 1938), had 13 SU-5-2 - http://khasan-district.narod.ru/history ... su_5_2.jpg (military parade, Khabarovsk)
One Internet source mentioned 28 SU-5 in June 1941 (17 of them in Western military districts), but me seems this is mistake, probably, as near 15 SU-5 were produced.
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... _5_2_4.jpg

"Artillery tanks" AT-1 were used during the Winter war (even as ambulance carriers). But their short-barrel 76mm tank gun PS-3 had already insufficient power for tank support in the end of 1930s, despite the fact that PS-3 could use shells not only from 76mm regimental gun mod. 1927, but also from 76mm divisional gun mod.1902/1930.


But that is all I could find

[BIGpanzer]

Really, nobody knows about the military use of Soviet experimental SPGs, based on T-26 light tank chassis?......
Even Russian members don`t know..............

And also no info about French experimental SPG, based on wheel-track tank St. Chamond mod. 1921?.......
Even French members don`t know................


There are two possibilities:
1. I really ask hard questions usually........... 8)
2. I write an extremelly uninteresting reviews and threads, and nobody read them............... :roll:

[SiG I]

There are two possibilities:
1. I really ask hard questions usually........... 8)
2. I write an extremelly uninteresting reviews and threads, and nobody read them............... :roll:

I would say nr.1. I have read all your contributions about allied AFVs with great interest. However, I am neither Russian nor French.
I can only give you encouragements. Keep up the good work!

Regards, SiG

[BIGpanzer]

Hello, SigI!
Thanks for the kind letter! I will try to continue posting interesting info I have.

For example, yesterday I made a small search about allied coast defence guns. One of the most interesting project of 1930s was Soviet 152-mm SPG of coast defence (engineer A. Tolochkov, 1933). SPG was based on the modified chassis of medium tank T-28, armed with naval gun B-10 and armored with 8-20 mm armor. It was the multipurpose SPG, intended for coast defence; directly support of infantry as assault gun and use as long-range field gun.
That SPG should be equipped with crane for shells and cartridges, hydraulic gear for elevation and electric fire controller. The most interesting part of the project was the traversing for coastal defence - caterpillars of the Tolochkov`s SPG should be hoisted on the fire position and special hull roller platform should be hoisted down (all during 2-3 min), which provided 360 grades fast and stepless rotating of the whole SPG. Specifications (project): weight 50 t; 400 hp engine; 20 km/h; dimensions 10x3.5x2.5-2.9m; 6 men crew.
Unfortunately, Soviet Central Artillery Department rejected the project and its development by Leningrad artillery factory "Bolshevik". Nevertheless, Soviets used many technical ideas of the project in experimental heavy SPGs of 1930s - "Big duplex" and "Big triplex", I`ve shortly mentioned above here, in the thread.