War's End

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
WCSTUMP
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WHO GIVES A BIG RAT?

#16

Post by WCSTUMP » 01 Apr 2002, 17:59

As history has played out over 55 years, Germany has been rebuilt, the Nazi have been regulated to a few "ner do wells", aryan nation skin heads, so what does it matter if the date of surrender was May 8, 1945 or May 8, 1946? The outcome is all the same. "Der Fuhrer" is kaput and in Hell, the Nazi's are out of power, (except for the "wanna be New Fuhrer and his rag tag bunch) and the world still turns.

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Matt Gibbs
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chancellor and president

#17

Post by Matt Gibbs » 01 Apr 2002, 18:39

I am not sure of the exact terms of the constitutional change with regard to hitler rolling the offices of President and Chancellor into one but I am equally unsure how a law can be termed illegal..? If it is the law of whatever country and passed by whatever it's governmental machine uses then it is considered to be legal in that country, surely..? It seems silly to call a law illegal. Perhaps morally or in an international context it might be..? Just wondered how it can be said a law/constitotion can be said to be illegal. Probably thats why there are so many ethical considerations when dealing with this sort of case in the Third Reich, yes they had a justice system and a form of government which passes laws and statutes, they had courts and justice officials which passed judgements which were valid in context of the law of the country at that time. Only when the course of justice was perverted in individual cases could it be said that ethically the law was wrong. Taking these things in a sort of 'pure state law' form it could be hard to argue a lot of points about the Thrid Reich if you are only discussing what happened in context with laws passed and valid in the country at that time. Very thought provoking that a state cannot be said to have ceased to exsist because no peace treaty is signed and the current government dissolved. I will have to read more. Just out of interest anyone care to point to FACTUAL documentation on the setting up of the new government. I assume the Control Commision
can be classed as an 'interim' government of sorts..? If anyone wishes to reply to my post and request can they please respond with documented FACTS not might have beens about the standpoint of law with regard to the german government of the time.
Regards


R. J. Kimmel
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#18

Post by R. J. Kimmel » 01 Apr 2002, 21:17

I think what is happening here is good, healthy discussion that is worth additional research. What little infomation I do have, I shall be most happy to continue to contribute.

Richard

pdhinkle36ID
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End of War

#19

Post by pdhinkle36ID » 02 Apr 2002, 01:50

Nazism is as dead as Hitler, Göring, Goebbels, .... If Hitlers take over in the 1930s was legal so was the 1949 German gov,t.

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ZARATHUSTRA
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End of War

#20

Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 03 Apr 2002, 04:29

What I am saying is that a country's government can not be done away with legally by another government, without the consent of that government. And as such, that government, still legally exist.

The once two governments of Germany, the DDR and the BRD were set up as puppet governments by the Allies, and this does not consist of a legal entity. A country or countries can not just go into another country and declare that government does not exist without that governments approval. The DDR, if it was a legal government, did signed over it's right to be absorbed into the BRD, which would have been proper if it were a legal entity.

These types of illegal seizures result in a chaotic international situation, as I am sure you could see where it will eventually lead.

An interesting case study is the peace treaty signed by the French government with the Third Reich after it's defeat, and other governments who relinquished their right to exist like Austria.

Another observation I have made is that due to the fact that there was no peace treaty withe the Third Reich, the Allies can extract all forms of retribution from Germany until a peace treaty is signed.

An interesting case recently pitted POWs, who were imprisoned in Japan during the war, suing Japan for being treated unfairly (tortured, starved, experimented on, and other injustices). The US Federal court ruled that because Japan signed a peace treaty absolving itself of being held responsible later for such crimes, that the POW's had no case.

Where in Germany's case you hear about someone suing their corporations or their government relentlessly.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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ZARATHUSTRA
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Re: End of War

#21

Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 03 Apr 2002, 04:41

pdhinkle36ID wrote:Nazism is as dead as Hitler, Göring, Goebbels, .... If Hitlers take over in the 1930s was legal so was the 1949 German gov,t.
Hitler's takeover, as you erroneously call it, of Germany in 1932 was quite legal, I am sorry for you to say. But it would make no difference, because he is a citizen of that country. The creation of the Soviet Union is a prime example of that. They killed off the Czar and took over the government, but it was done within, not by a foreign power. And I am sure, that even in that case the next in line to the Czar after enough people were killed signed some type of formal abdication, but maybe not.

The 1949 Government was not overthrown by the German people, but was a puppet government set up by the Allies to do their bidding.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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#22

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 03 Apr 2002, 19:48

And as the gouvernment of the Thrid Reich does no longer exist, they can not hand over the country, so there is no way of making it right - other than to have the 1933 election declared illegal, which would be hard, but few would object...

Have you tried mailing the UN, or some other international agency?

FP

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ZARATHUSTRA
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Reich's end?

#23

Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 05 Apr 2002, 23:52

This is only something the German people will have to do. Personally I think they will never demand their own rights, due to their being constantly harangued by the Holocaust Crusaders.

Also you might notice that the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty was signed by every country in Europe at war with the Allies, except Germany and Austria.

Later on Austria signed a peace treaty with the Allies by claiming they were unjustly annexed by Germany and than liberated by the Allies.
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

Robert Zeller
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#24

Post by Robert Zeller » 06 Apr 2002, 01:01

"And as the gouvernment of the Thrid Reich does no longer exist, they can not hand over the country, so there is no way of making it right - other than to have the 1933 election declared illegal, which would be hard, but few would object... "

You are right in saying that as the government of the Third Reich no longer exists (to the best of our knowledge) they cannot hand over the country, although I don't think that would be "making it right"

As for having the 33 elections declared illegal, someone would most likely have to prove they're was something illegal about them, which they're was'nt, they were completely legit.

And anyway, now days it's probably too late to have people vote the Reich out of existance, because most of the fine citizens of Germany, while being citizens of Germany, are citizens of the "Bundes Republik"(legal or not) and not citizens of the Third Reich,

I assume, that even if it was determined legal to vote the Third Reich out of existance, they'd be hard pressed to find enough people who still maintain their Third Reich citizenship (if any). and if they did, I doubt half of them would vote against the Reich, because if they were'nt National Socialist themselves, they would have gotten rid of that citizenship.

-Robert Zeller

Ovidius
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Drittes Reich

#25

Post by Ovidius » 06 Apr 2002, 01:27

ZARATHUSTRA has written:
By international law, signing official surrender documents of a country's military, does not ipso facto mean that country ceases to exist officially or de facto. A peace agreement usually follows, and should have legally, in Germany's case, been negotiated and signed by Doenitz and the legal government. Doenitz was illegally arrested by the Allies against him and his Governments will. To say another country has the right upon winning a war to eliminate your government goes against all former international agreements. This will set a precedence for any country to claim another is a criminal country, and by just beating them in a war, could eliminate that country's government and execute and imprison their leaders after being convicted in an illegal show trial.
Emphases are mine.

The truth of those words is obvious and I agree to them completely. :D

And in regard to this:
Technically the Third Reich still exists, and as it has never signed a peace agreement or signed a cease to exist document giving it's authority to another entity it will continue to exist. Today's Germany will always be an illegal country, due to the fact that the original government (The Third Reich) only signed military surrender documents, but did not capitulate it's governmental authority.
I can say that it is the truth(in spite of the embarrassment of many guys around), and the fact that someone dared to say it openly it's a great pleasure for me.

Not to mention it's the best slap in the Bundestablishment's face that I've seen both in this forum and the old one. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Congratulations!!! :D

~Best regards,

Ovidius

PS In the place of a certain member around, I wouldn't be so sure Hitler went to Hell. :twisted:

Robert Zeller
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Ovidius

#26

Post by Robert Zeller » 06 Apr 2002, 01:46

Obviously Hitler's not in Hell!!
But someone might want to do some research and check up on the spiritual where-abouts of Mr. Joe S. from Russia :)

-Robert Zeller

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Rule

#27

Post by [email protected] » 08 Apr 2002, 05:34

Even if it isn't written, a different government is in power and the Nazis are not. Hitler changed the rules when he governed Germany, as would the proceeding government.

The "Nazis" these days put the Third Reich to shame.

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