Hey,
I intended to say that the Reich had annexed Slovenia and had claimed in Italy an access to the sea.
please someone knows, if that is true.
or if someone knows some address of web site about it with carts ????
thank
A B
annexation of Slovenia
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Miha Grcar
- Member
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- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 10:19
- Location: Europe
Hello Melinka
the version which is often heard in Slovenia is this:
Northern part of Slovenia - Styria, Carinthia and Carniola were supposed to be annexed to the III. Reich territory. That way the German lands would be expended and the people would become Germans (technically). The plan was to send a third (someone please correct me if I'm mistaking, some claim 200.000 people) of the Slovenian population to Serbia, while the other would undergo intense pressure of germanisation. The rest of the Slovenes left would, by that logic, become germans through the process.
The problem was, that the partisan movement denied the stability to make the annextion totally possible. In the need for soldiers the authorities started a forced conscription of Slovenes to the Wehrmacht as early as 1942. This also halted the above mentioned moving of people to Serbia and other parts of Yugoslavia.
Looking from that perspective the thing to say would be like this: there were plans of annexation, but never carried out, although I even heard some claims that people recieved the German citizenship (someone more knowledable please correct me).
No real help, but I hope that this would be something you were expecting.
best,
Miha / Nibelung
the version which is often heard in Slovenia is this:
Northern part of Slovenia - Styria, Carinthia and Carniola were supposed to be annexed to the III. Reich territory. That way the German lands would be expended and the people would become Germans (technically). The plan was to send a third (someone please correct me if I'm mistaking, some claim 200.000 people) of the Slovenian population to Serbia, while the other would undergo intense pressure of germanisation. The rest of the Slovenes left would, by that logic, become germans through the process.
The problem was, that the partisan movement denied the stability to make the annextion totally possible. In the need for soldiers the authorities started a forced conscription of Slovenes to the Wehrmacht as early as 1942. This also halted the above mentioned moving of people to Serbia and other parts of Yugoslavia.
Looking from that perspective the thing to say would be like this: there were plans of annexation, but never carried out, although I even heard some claims that people recieved the German citizenship (someone more knowledable please correct me).
No real help, but I hope that this would be something you were expecting.
best,
Miha / Nibelung
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Lupo Solitario
- Member
- Posts: 1143
- Joined: 21 Mar 2002, 19:39
- Location: Italy, country of sun, wine and morons
Hallo,
Nibelung, your post is interesting. I am wondering, if the the northern part of Slovenia was to be absorbed into the Reich what was to become of the rest of it-- was it to stay with Yugoslavia or be given nominal independence? Also, how many Slovenes were conscripted into the Wehrmacht?
Does anyone know of any books specifically on Slovenia during World War II?
Best Regards,
Durand
Nibelung, your post is interesting. I am wondering, if the the northern part of Slovenia was to be absorbed into the Reich what was to become of the rest of it-- was it to stay with Yugoslavia or be given nominal independence? Also, how many Slovenes were conscripted into the Wehrmacht?
Does anyone know of any books specifically on Slovenia during World War II?
Best Regards,
Durand
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Miha Grcar
- Member
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 10:19
- Location: Europe
Hello Durand,
I don't know about the rest of Slovenia after the Italian capitulation in September 1943, but the plan was to split Slovenia beetwen three countries. The parts I wrote about above would go to the III. Reich, the parts south (with Ljubljana) would be under Italian rule while a small part of land over river Mura would go to Hungary. All three parties had their plans of adjusting the Slovenes to be absorbed into their nations. Germany was the most agressive at it, folloved by Italy and Hungary.
South of those Slovene lands was the NDH under Pavelić, so I think that you can get the idea; North-Germany, south-Italy, east-Hungary.
There were about 90.000 conscripts into the Wehrmacht during the war. Styria had the largest number mobilised, the youngest were the class of 1929, Carniola was second with the last class of 1928 conscripted. There is an estimate of about 20.000 dead out of that number.
As far as books on Slovenia during WWII are concerned I have no knowledge about their existance. I only saw one book rewieved by Mr. Wendel on the Axishistory site.
best regards,
Miha / Nibelung
I don't know about the rest of Slovenia after the Italian capitulation in September 1943, but the plan was to split Slovenia beetwen three countries. The parts I wrote about above would go to the III. Reich, the parts south (with Ljubljana) would be under Italian rule while a small part of land over river Mura would go to Hungary. All three parties had their plans of adjusting the Slovenes to be absorbed into their nations. Germany was the most agressive at it, folloved by Italy and Hungary.
South of those Slovene lands was the NDH under Pavelić, so I think that you can get the idea; North-Germany, south-Italy, east-Hungary.
There were about 90.000 conscripts into the Wehrmacht during the war. Styria had the largest number mobilised, the youngest were the class of 1929, Carniola was second with the last class of 1928 conscripted. There is an estimate of about 20.000 dead out of that number.
As far as books on Slovenia during WWII are concerned I have no knowledge about their existance. I only saw one book rewieved by Mr. Wendel on the Axishistory site.
best regards,
Miha / Nibelung
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David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
The partition of Yugoslavia 12 Apr 1941
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63271
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63271
Re: annexation of Slovenia
After Semptember 1943. Hitler did not formally anex "Italian" parts of Slovenia but obviously he had such plans. Gauleiter Rainer (of Carinthia) was de facto in charge not only in "Italian" parts of Slovenia but also Rijeka and Trieste. Hitler planned to establish German outlet on Adriatic. Mussolini was wasted factor after 1943.
Re: annexation of Slovenia
What others have said is essentially true.
As a result of Jugoslavia's collapse, the Slovene lands suffered a partition from 7 April 1941. The trans-Mura region being restored to Hungary, the Maribor-Celje or Niedersteiermark region restored to Styria (at the time, Steiermark Gau), and the Kranj or Oberkrain region attached to Kaernten Gau (never a part of Carinthia). The Italians annexed the rest of Slovenia along with Ljubljana and attached it to their Venezia-Giulia province.
Following Italy's surrender and occupation in September 1943, German SS-police forces took control of these areas and beyond. All of Italy's territories annexed in 1941 were added to their acquisitions from WWI and formed into a police zone headed by the HSSPF Kuestenland. This man was Odilo Globocnik, a favourite of RFSS Heinrich Himmler, who had a Slovene father. This territory was under SS control but was still officially part of the Italian Social Republic. It corresponded to the old Crownland of Kuestenland, which was part of the Austrian Empire until it was annexed by Italy in 1919. The only exception was Fiume, which was formally annexed by Italy in 1922 following a brief dictatorship by the famous poet Gabrielle d'Annunzio. Fiume was restored to Hungary in October 1943 as a gift of sorts, to keep Hungary in the war on Germany's side. However, like the rest of Kuestenland, Fiume was completely under control of the HSSPF.
As an interesting side note, Hitler was quite accommodating with Mussolini's scheme to persecute the ancient German-speaking inhabitants out of the South Tirol, which was annexed by Italy in 1919. Hitler even offered to resettle people from the South Tirol without cost in 1937, and tens of thousands fled Mussolini's brutal anti-German campaign to find safety in the Reich. Apparently, having Mussolini as an ally trumped the Fuehrer's scheme of rebuilding the Reich and expanding German settlement.
That changed in 1943, however. Just like in Kuestenland, an HSSPF was assigned the same administrative dictatorial powers in not only the South Tirol, but also Trentino, which was part of Austria before 1919 but Italian in character and speech. Mussolini's court at Salo was only a few miles away from the extended frontier of the Reich at Riva on Lake Garda, which must have rankled il Duce to no end!
Author Peter Padfield has RFSS Himmler suggesting in late 1943 that Venice should be annexed to the Reich, for as he saw it, Venice depended on German tourists, and would benefit by inclusion within the Reich. Venice and its hinterland, of course, was part of the Austrian Empire until 1866.
All this usurpation of Italian rights has been termed by some authors as "The Habsburg Revenge".
G
As a result of Jugoslavia's collapse, the Slovene lands suffered a partition from 7 April 1941. The trans-Mura region being restored to Hungary, the Maribor-Celje or Niedersteiermark region restored to Styria (at the time, Steiermark Gau), and the Kranj or Oberkrain region attached to Kaernten Gau (never a part of Carinthia). The Italians annexed the rest of Slovenia along with Ljubljana and attached it to their Venezia-Giulia province.
Following Italy's surrender and occupation in September 1943, German SS-police forces took control of these areas and beyond. All of Italy's territories annexed in 1941 were added to their acquisitions from WWI and formed into a police zone headed by the HSSPF Kuestenland. This man was Odilo Globocnik, a favourite of RFSS Heinrich Himmler, who had a Slovene father. This territory was under SS control but was still officially part of the Italian Social Republic. It corresponded to the old Crownland of Kuestenland, which was part of the Austrian Empire until it was annexed by Italy in 1919. The only exception was Fiume, which was formally annexed by Italy in 1922 following a brief dictatorship by the famous poet Gabrielle d'Annunzio. Fiume was restored to Hungary in October 1943 as a gift of sorts, to keep Hungary in the war on Germany's side. However, like the rest of Kuestenland, Fiume was completely under control of the HSSPF.
As an interesting side note, Hitler was quite accommodating with Mussolini's scheme to persecute the ancient German-speaking inhabitants out of the South Tirol, which was annexed by Italy in 1919. Hitler even offered to resettle people from the South Tirol without cost in 1937, and tens of thousands fled Mussolini's brutal anti-German campaign to find safety in the Reich. Apparently, having Mussolini as an ally trumped the Fuehrer's scheme of rebuilding the Reich and expanding German settlement.
That changed in 1943, however. Just like in Kuestenland, an HSSPF was assigned the same administrative dictatorial powers in not only the South Tirol, but also Trentino, which was part of Austria before 1919 but Italian in character and speech. Mussolini's court at Salo was only a few miles away from the extended frontier of the Reich at Riva on Lake Garda, which must have rankled il Duce to no end!
Author Peter Padfield has RFSS Himmler suggesting in late 1943 that Venice should be annexed to the Reich, for as he saw it, Venice depended on German tourists, and would benefit by inclusion within the Reich. Venice and its hinterland, of course, was part of the Austrian Empire until 1866.
All this usurpation of Italian rights has been termed by some authors as "The Habsburg Revenge".
G
Re: annexation of Slovenia
A bit of correction. Hitler did not consider giving Fiume to Horthy's regime and any kind of such formal or informal step did not happen. It is possible that Horthy was thinking about Fiume after September 1943. but Hitler did not pay attention. The same can be said for claims of Ustasha regime which also stated its wishes about Fiume. Formally, Fiume stood in Italian teritory with Germans ruling de facto. But it is true that Italian officials in Fiume did not know what to do: to support Badoglio or Salo regime.
Re: annexation of Slovenia
I am not certain what Hitler's personal opinion of Fiume was. My source for the transfer of Fiume to Hungary in October 1943 is anewspaper article, and newpapers are admittedly are full of lies and half-truths during war time. However, where would such a story originate even if its untrue? It am not convinced that Fiume could remain part of Italy after its defection from the Axis, not when Croatia and Hungary were still loyal and covetous of this territory! I will keep a look out for better sources than newspapers and internet chat to close the case on Fiume's political status.
G
G
Re: annexation of Slovenia
In this context we should not remember further facts.
Of course, Italy defected Axis and declared the war to Germany, but in the north there was Repubblica Sociale or Salo puppet regime with Mussolini in power.
I think nor Hitler neither Mussolini (Horthy and Ustashe even less) were thinking about teritorial arrangments in late 1943. Military situation had priority.
Of course, Italy defected Axis and declared the war to Germany, but in the north there was Repubblica Sociale or Salo puppet regime with Mussolini in power.
I think nor Hitler neither Mussolini (Horthy and Ustashe even less) were thinking about teritorial arrangments in late 1943. Military situation had priority.
Re: annexation of Slovenia
German occupied Slovene territories were never legally (de iure) annexed to the Third Reich.
German occupied Slovene territories were under German military command until 14.4.1941 only when they were placed under the authority of civil governors Kutschera and Uiberreither and their administrations. They were both appointed CdZ of occupied territories Untersteiermark, Kärntens and Krain (Štajerska, Koroška and Gorenjska) and their governance was said to be temporary. Hitler's decrees of their appointments dated 14.4.1941 were therefore not acts of annexation of German occupied Slovene territories to the Third Reich.
In Spring 1941 annexation of German occupied territories in Slovenia was determined for 1.10.1941. Decision was made in Berlin, probably in the Ministry of Interior. The term was postponed first to 1.11.1941 and then to 1.1.1942. The reason for postponement was lack of appropriate man to replace Kutschera. 30.11.1941 Friedrich Rainer was appointed first Gauleiter of Kärnten and then 16.12.1941 Rechtsstatthalter of Kärnten and Chef der Zivilverwaltung of Krain. Because of successful partisan activity Rainer suggested Hitler to postpone annexation for another six months. Hitler agreed but formal annexation was never accomplished as there was no legal act passed. However, both Rainer and Uiberrreither acted as if German occupied Slovene territories had been annexed to the Third Reich.
Note that German citizenship of Slovene population was not derived from annexation.
Regards
German occupied Slovene territories were under German military command until 14.4.1941 only when they were placed under the authority of civil governors Kutschera and Uiberreither and their administrations. They were both appointed CdZ of occupied territories Untersteiermark, Kärntens and Krain (Štajerska, Koroška and Gorenjska) and their governance was said to be temporary. Hitler's decrees of their appointments dated 14.4.1941 were therefore not acts of annexation of German occupied Slovene territories to the Third Reich.
In Spring 1941 annexation of German occupied territories in Slovenia was determined for 1.10.1941. Decision was made in Berlin, probably in the Ministry of Interior. The term was postponed first to 1.11.1941 and then to 1.1.1942. The reason for postponement was lack of appropriate man to replace Kutschera. 30.11.1941 Friedrich Rainer was appointed first Gauleiter of Kärnten and then 16.12.1941 Rechtsstatthalter of Kärnten and Chef der Zivilverwaltung of Krain. Because of successful partisan activity Rainer suggested Hitler to postpone annexation for another six months. Hitler agreed but formal annexation was never accomplished as there was no legal act passed. However, both Rainer and Uiberrreither acted as if German occupied Slovene territories had been annexed to the Third Reich.
Note that German citizenship of Slovene population was not derived from annexation.
Regards
Re: annexation of Slovenia
Slovene territory occupied by Italy was formally annexed to Italy by king’s order 3.5.1941.
Slovene territory occupied by Hungary was formally annexed to Hungary by parliament’s law 16.12.1941.
Slovene territory occupied by Hungary was formally annexed to Hungary by parliament’s law 16.12.1941.