1936 Olympics/Man who was really a woman

[FireFoxy]

Hey Urban.

Sorry. I just did not quite understand you're post.
So this Oylmpic German runner is a SheMan? is that what you are saying? I am still confussed

[Urban Spaceman]

Hey Urban.

Sorry. I just did not quite understand you're post.
So this Oylmpic German runner is a SheMan? is that what you are saying? I am still confussed

Hi there Fire Foxy

I'll try to explain what happened as clearly as possible.

Hermann Ratjen was a man who was born in Bremen in November 1918.

In the mid 1930's, he was pressurised (so he said in a magazine interview in 1957) by people in the Hitler Youth to dress up as a girl with a view to winning a gold medal in the ladies high jump event at the Berlin Olympics of 1936, presumably for the greater glory of Germany and the Third Reich. Apparently, Hermann had ambiguous genitalia, but he still had to strap them up so as not to give himself away. He was only about 17 years old when all this was going on, and as a girl, he called himself "Dora" Ratjen. Some of his fellow lady competitors, such as Britain's Dorothy Odam and Germany's Greta Baumann (whose place Hermann - or "Dora" as he was then known) had taken in the Olympic team, had suspicions about him, due to his very deep voice and also the fact that he never took a shower or a bath in the presence of any of the other ladies.Dorothy Odam (then only 16 years old) had competed againt "Dora" Ratjen in a competition in Brussels, which "Dora" won, and had long had reservations about her sex. Greta Baumann was Germany's best high jumper at that time, but as she was Jewish in the days of heavy anti-Semitism in the Reich, she was told by the German Olympic authorities that she had been left out of the team.The German ladies high jump team consisted of "Dora" Ratjen (really Hermann) and Elfriede Kaun.

Unfortunately, on the day of the event, "Dora" was not good enough to win, and finished in fourth place, behind Ibolya Csak from Hungary, Dorothy Odam of Britain and Germany's Elfriede Kaun, who all went into a jump-off for the gold medal in front of Adolf Hitler. Despite this setback, "Dora" Ratjen continued to compete and later "won" the gold medal at the European Championships in Vienna in 1938 in the ladies high jump event, with what was a new world record at the time. Of course, "Dora" was really Hermann Ratjen, and it was not too long afterwards that this masquerade was uncovered when Hermann was travelling back on a train and effectively "debagged" ! Following this event, the German athletic authorities announced that Dora Ratjen was immediately disqualified from competing as a lady in all future athletic events and the gold medal which she had won in Vienna was later awarded to Ibolya Csak of Hungary (who had finished second) and the world record erased from the record books."Dora" then reverted back to being Hermann Ratjen for the remainder of his life.

Much of this came to light when in 1957, after having laid low for many years and presumably lived a quiet life in Germany, Hermann Ratjen gave an interview to a magazine and explained what had happened. He had been ordered to dress as a woman for three years (from 1935 to 1938 presumably) in the hope of winning that coveted gold medal for Germany and the Reich, but explained that he had found life as a woman very dull ! According to Greta Baumann, Hermann (masquerading as Dora) was a friendly person and she got along well with him/her, but he always greeted her with "Guten Tag" (Good day) in a very deep voice.

I do hope that this will help you to understand what I believe to have been the situation. As far as I know, Hermann was still alive at the beginning of 2006, and I will try to find out more. Sorry if any of this has confused you !

[FireFoxy]

Urban. I totally understand now what you were talking about.
This story as got me so intrigue so much.

One question i have got-

Did Hitler ever knew about this man ,trying to pass off as being a women?

[Urban Spaceman]

Urban. I totally understand now what you were talking about.
This story as got me so intrigue so much.

One question i have got-

Did Hitler ever knew about this man ,trying to pass off as being a women?

Hi Fire Foxy.

This is something I don't know the answer to, and a question I might ask Guy Walters.

I doubt we will ever really know - the German Olympic authorities obviously knew and were in collusion no doubt,and it does beg the question about what would have happened had "Dora" actually won the gold medal in Berlin. Would that have led to her immediate disappearance from the athletics scene and a resumption of life as Hermann Ratjen, with only a few people officially being "in the know" ?

It is the kind of thing I would love to have asked Hermann myself and of course, he no doubt would have had some interesting stories to tell about that time in his life, even if he did consider his three year life as a woman to be very dull !

[FireFoxy]

Hi Urban.

Would you ask for me,please do ask Guy Walters. I would love to know if Hitler knew about this.
Yes same here, I would be so interested in his stories for sure.I wounder if any men were attrated to him,that would be a good story to here from him .
If he was caught out,he be disqualified for sure!

I actually thought you were joking when i read you're first post,so i had to ask you to make sure!

[Urban Spaceman]

I will do that for you Fire Foxy.

It would be difficult to know if Hermann was "fancied" by any men when he was dressed as a woman - though of course, homosexuality existed in Reich and no doubt, some pople saw through his disguise.They say that there is someone for everyone - it is just that we don't always find them though ! I'd have been interested to see what Hermann looked like later in life as I have only ever seen the photos on here and also Leni Riefenstahl's film shot at the Berlin Olympics in 1936.

I'll let you know when I receive an answer from Guy Walters.

[FireFoxy]

Wow thank you Urban,i'll sit tight and wait for an answer.This is the first time i have ever heard about this story.Well i knew about the 1936 berlin games but not about this.
The only photo i seen is the one you showen on this thread but i am interested.
I would love to see him as a women in women clothes,do you have more pics of this man? It would be great if you did!I love to see more photo's of this man/women,if you don't that ok.Sorry if i seem pushy,i'm really keen

[Dieter Zinke]

"Dora" Ratjen was not solely in 1936 as a woman who was really a man:

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/leichtath ... stest.html
Bei Olympia 1936 in der deutschen Hauptstadt gewann die Polin Stanisława Walasiewicz Silber im 100-Meter-Sprint. Vier Jahre zuvor hatte sie in Los Angeles sogar Olympia-Gold geholt. Als sie 1980 bei einem Raubüberfall in Cleveland ermordet wurde – inzwischen hatte sie die US-Staatsbürgerschaft und nannte sich Stella Walsh Olson – ergab die anschließende Obduktion, dass die berühmte Ex-Sportlerin auch männliche Geschlechtsorgane hatte.

The silver medalist (100 meters, women) in Berlin 1936, Stanisława Walasiewicz from Poland (also gold during the Olympic games 1932 in Los Angeles), was murdered 1980 in Cleveland - in the meanwhile with the US-citizenship and the name Stella Walsh Olson. The autopsy gave certainty: she had also male genitals.

You see: nobody is perfect.

Dieter Z.

[Urban Spaceman]

You are absolutely right there Dieter - but of course, society loves to categorise people and put them in nice convenient "boxes".

Personally, I have immense sympathy for people like Hermann Ratjen and Stella Walsh, because it cannot have been easy for them, or for anyone who might feel that they are in the "wrong" body or are a borderline case, sexwise.Hermann of course was a man, but it did sound as if there was some ambiguity over his sex and he was later reported to have had an operation.

I do wonder if he is still alive today - I have not read any reports of his death.

[tommy303]

Should Hermann still be alive today, he would be 90 years old

Hermann passed away 22 April 2008

[Urban Spaceman]

Many thanks for that info Tommy.

I had read nothing about this anywhere and if there was an obituary, I must have missed it.

Whereabouts did you find out about Hermann's death ?

[doublefix]

Interesting, how many men competed disguised as a woman but have never been exposed. If not for this shooting, you have mentioned, no one would ever know of the dude. She looks like a man that is only when one knows the naked truth, otherwise I would have never guessed.

[JTG]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 22,00.html

It's not that simple, even nowadays..

[Heimatschuss]

Hello,

there is a well-researched article in this week's 'Der Spiegel' news magazine on 'Dora' Ratjen. It contains quite some new information. I recommend it.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 04,00.html

Best regards
Torsten

[Odilo88]

Dora/Heinrich Ratjen, well known Olympic athlet, was named Heinrich in 1937 and then he fought in the Second World War? Is it known in which unit he served with?