the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

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Askold
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#16

Post by Askold » 06 Dec 2005, 20:06

Larry D.:
I dunno, this stuff about killing Jews, Poles and collaboration with the Nazis is in a lot of Western history books.
- "I dunno" is a rather weak argument, don't you think? Simply because it is mentioned by Western books, does not make it true. With regards western publications, up to very recently, they were very biased and showed complete lack of understanding of Eastern European history (remember, that even "Central-European" term is a very new one). We must also take note that many British and Western historians would take the Soviet/Russian works as base for their research. Only now (after the Iron Curtain) do we know how misleading such Russian publications were.

For example - up to very recently, the Wisental centre/Jewish/Western books would write on supposed crimes of Galicia division during Warsaw uprising. However, its been proven that no members of Galicia division ever took part in the uprising or were anywhere near Warsaw. Did anyone of those publishers ever came out and openly admitted they were wrong? NONE.

No lets get back to actual examples;
As for OUN-Bandera and the UPA, your understanding and mine largely coincide. But by the same token, it is not correct to suggest that there was absolutely no collaboration at times and by certain small groups and members within OUN-Bandera and the UPA with the German authorities 1942-45.
- I am still waiting for concrete example of joint UPA-German collaboration.

The example you've provided me is completely useless because:
1. It does not mention UPA but auxillaries.
2. While your assumption that police was under OUN-M is 50/50, you forget that UPA was under OUN-B control.
And, during the period 1939 and before and the end of 1941, there was most certainly collaboration between the entire OUN organization and the Germans, especially the Abwehr.
- Isn't that what I stated in my previous post? After Germans refused to acknowledge Ukrainian independence, OUN fought agains them as much as against Russians.

P.S. Do read about Jewish doctors in UPA, perhaps you'll have less sarcastic look on things.

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#17

Post by Larry D. » 06 Dec 2005, 22:04

Some of these men truly deserve respect and admiration.
Agreed. I have no problem with that. Many or most of them were truly freedom fighters who fought the Bolshevik enemy so there could be a free Ukraine.

--Larry


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Benoit Douville
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#18

Post by Benoit Douville » 06 Dec 2005, 23:02

The UPA was the military branch of the Oganization of Ukrainian Nationalists. The goal of the UPA was nothing less than an independent Ukraine, free of all foreign occupation They were very brave to fight against both the Germans and the Soviets.

There is a good book in french called "L'Allemagne National-Socialiste et l'Ukraine" written by W.Kosyk. It is a very good work and it described in details the complicated situation in Ukraine during World War II. If you can get your hand on this work, you will learn a lot about the UPA and the OUN.

Regards

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Georgien
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#19

Post by Georgien » 06 Dec 2005, 23:55

"Agreed. I have no problem with that. Many or most of them were truly freedom fighters who fought the Bolshevik enemy so there could be a free Ukraine."

Bravo Larry! :)

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#20

Post by Stoigniew » 07 Dec 2005, 10:55

I know UPA topic is sensitive. To have complete view of this organisation, we have to remember, that those ,,freedom fighters'' committed cruel genocide campaign against Polish population in Vohlynia. It was ordered by one of UPA leaders, Taras Czuprynko. That was realisation of their extreme nationalist ideology: they wanted free Ukraine without ethnic minorities. Also many Ukrainians, who disagreed with UPA ideology, were murdered.
Also, not everyone, who fights against Bolsheviks, is knightly freedom fighter :( .
And relation UPA-Germans were complicated. In first year of German occupation of Ukraine UPA was their ally, later turned against them. When Polish Home Army wanted to negotiate ani-German alliance with UPA, Home Army delegats were murdered - torn apart by horses... But during whole war, UPA fought at first against Soviet Union and - in Western Ukraine - Poles, fighting against Germans was their ,,second objective''. When Germans were forced to withdraw from Ukraine, they left a lot of weapons and other supply to UPA...

Disscussion and some photos also here:
http://odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=172568

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#21

Post by Larry D. » 07 Dec 2005, 15:03

Stoigniew -

As you said,
I know UPA topic is sensitive.
One man's bandit is another man's freedom fighter and vice versa. It's all a matter of one's ethnicity and perspective. Let each one read the books and articles, and explore the documents, and then decide for himself (or herself). As has already been said, atrocities were committed by both sides and this should come as no surprise to anyone given the centuries-old hatreds that existed in those lands that had changed hands so many times over the years. Atrocities are an inevitable part of war. Everyone is sorry they happened after the war is over, but they still happen. It is human nature when passions run hot.

Accordingly, it is probably pointless to belabor this subject any longer because it just leads to heated argument where things are often said that can't later be taken back or forgiven.

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Georgien
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#22

Post by Georgien » 07 Dec 2005, 17:32

Stoigniew,

You didn’t mention that Polish persecuted for a long time Ukrainian population in Galicia. Also Polish did everything possible for prevention of the establishment of Ukrainian state. Polish didn't even consider Ukrainians as a nation. Do you deny that Polish also took part in massacres of Ukrainians in the west?

Larry is right. "One man's bandit is another man's freedom fighter and vice versa. It's all a matter of one's ethnicity and perspective" I think there is no point arguing about this. I understand Polish side as much as Ukrainian. I did read about massacres of Polish civilians and even seen very disturbing photos of it (kids hanged on trees). I’m not justifying any side here. However, there was a bigger threat for Ukrainians and Polish alike in the east. Bolshevik Russia (and Russia overall) considered Poland and Ukraine as hostile nations. Russia always was, is and will threaten the existence of these two nations. That is why i don’t understand the animosity which polish and Ukrainians have for each other. They should be natural allies (specially when they are deeply connected religiously, culturally and historically). I think they showed that during the orange revolution. And I hope they will continue to do so.

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#23

Post by Benoit Douville » 07 Dec 2005, 18:07

Georgien,

Ukraine and Poland are really different if you are talking about religion, Poland is in majority a Catholic country and Ukraine in majority an Orthodox nation and there is a long way to go before those two religions can be reconciliated .They have been separated since 1054 and the actual Pope Benedict XVI is trying hard to make a reconciliation. However, I do agree with you that it is sad that those two great nations didn't like each other in the past but things hopefully are beginning to change slowly.

Stoigniew,

The terrible genocide in Volhynia against the Poles during World War II was an Ukrainian genocide, the competing forces of Bulba and Melnik as well as the Ukrainian police set up by the Germans in the latter half of 1941 participated along with the the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of Bandera in the genocide.

Also, if you have some info about Taras Czuprynko, I would be really interested.

Regards

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#24

Post by Askold » 07 Dec 2005, 20:12

Stoingniew:
And relation UPA-Germans were complicated. In first year of German occupation of Ukraine UPA was their ally, later turned against them. When Polish Home Army wanted to negotiate ani-German alliance with UPA, Home Army delegats were murdered - torn apart by horses...
- What is this? A new polish fairy-tale? Perhaps the delegates were eaten alive by those horrible UPA cannibals? :) There was a joint AK-UPA operation against the Germans, which was a complete success. If you want I can dig up the info on it.

Georgien:
Thanks for clarifying the Polish-Ukrainian issue!

To everyone:

The topic is if UPA cooperated with German army and NOT if UPA killed Poles ( I knew that soon or later someone from Polish side will jump on the subject and post bunch of irrelevent junk) If you want to continue the discussion, then please PROVIDE the supporting arguments on joint UPA-GERMAN cooperation.

P.S. Benoit:
You forget that the Ukrainians who were abused and mistreated under Polish rule, were Catholics as well (Uniates). Religion had nothing do to with politics, Poles denied fellow catholics many rights and freedoms.

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#25

Post by Benoit Douville » 07 Dec 2005, 20:52

Askold,

About the Uniates, this faith is primarily practiced in Poland by members of two minority communities, the Ukrainian and the Belarusian communities. Though the Uniate Bishops had expected to bring over to the Catholic faith their entire flocks, in fact a large proportion of the congregations chose to remain Orthodox... Having said that, I don't deny the atrocities committed to the Ukrainians under Polish rule.

Regards

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#26

Post by Askold » 07 Dec 2005, 21:21

Benoit:

The vas majority of Ukrainians under polish rule were Catholics (around 8 mil.). Only northern parts of Ukraine were still Orthodox. Another issue is whole of Ukraine, where Catholics are the minority, but it was the Western Ukraine that was under Poland, and that was just the region which was Catholic.

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Georgien
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#27

Post by Georgien » 07 Dec 2005, 21:27

Catholics Orthodox=its same Christianity. By the way please don't confuse Russian "Orthodox" Church and rest of the orthodox countries. Unfortunately Russian church instead of Christian doctrine practises imperial policies.

Benoit

as for same religion, i ment between Western Ukraine and Poland.

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#28

Post by Stoigniew » 08 Dec 2005, 11:04

Georgien:
1. Yes, Ukrainians in prewar Poland often were opressed, but they have citizen rights, legal political representation etc. Their situation was 1000% better then those in Soviet Ukraine.
2. It is not truth, that Poles ,,never considered Ukrainians as a nation'' or ,,did everything possible for prevention of the establishment of Ukrainian state''. Please read about 1920 war and Piłsudski - Petlura alliance against Bolsheviks. Piłsudski wanted a strong Ukraine as an ally against Russia, Ukrainians and Poles in 1920 fought for it together...
3. I also think Poland and Ukraine shall be allies and friends as durig the orange revolution.
But the truth about bad things in our history (including UPA activity against Poles) is the best base for friendship...
Regards,
Stoigniew

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#29

Post by Fluke » 08 Dec 2005, 17:26

Stoigniew wrote:Georgien:
1. Yes, Ukrainians in prewar Poland often were opressed, but they have citizen rights, legal political representation etc. Their situation was 1000% better then those in Soviet Ukraine.
2. It is not truth, that Poles ,,never considered Ukrainians as a nation'' or ,,did everything possible for prevention of the establishment of Ukrainian state''. Please read about 1920 war and Piłsudski - Petlura alliance against Bolsheviks. Piłsudski wanted a strong Ukraine as an ally against Russia, Ukrainians and Poles in 1920 fought for it together...
3. I also think Poland and Ukraine shall be allies and friends as durig the orange revolution.
But the truth about bad things in our history (including UPA activity against Poles) is the best base for friendship...
Regards,
Stoigniew
It' pointless to discuss who made more obuses - Ukrainians to Poles or vice versa. Problem in admiting their existance.

As far as I know Ukraine and Poland partly admit the obuses made to each other, I think it's a good start. I absolutely agree with you when you said that Poland and Ukraine shall be allies and friends.

Also i think that abuses which are made to Ukrainians by Poland are much smaller then by Russian empire and USSR.
To make it clear: I'm speaking not about nations but about states.

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#30

Post by Eugen Pinak » 08 Dec 2005, 17:51

My 2 kopijkas to this topic.

1. War is cruel. Guerilla war is 10 times more cruel. But I've never heard that Polish, Yugoslavian, Russian, French and any other partisans were just called "murders" or "slaughters" (except the Nazi propaganda). Why the Ukrainians are an exception?

2. To give you some insite into the political situation of WWII Ukraine, it had to mentioned, that there were at least 10 different German institutions, which had armed Ukainians under it's command as well as 4 "illegal" Ukrainian armed formations (incuding Soviet partisans). Note, that some of the Ukrainian formations also had non-Ukrainians. To simplify all this down to just one OUN-UPA is noncence.

3. OUN was always only "pro-Ukrainian". If the achievment of their goal required an alliance with another strong country - so be it. In 1920th UVO (forefather of OUN) colaborrated with the USSR because at this time there was more Ukrainian national development, that in the Western Ukraine (under Poland). Later the situation had changed and they preferred Germany. But in 1940 "pro-German" OUN-M had an idea to create Ukrainian legion on the _Allied_ side. Etc., etc.

4. OUN (Bandera's) and UPA were two sides of one coin.

5. Ukrainian-Polish confrontation on Volyn had at least 20 years of history before 1943 and was not so one-sided (i.e. "Ukrainian nationalist murders" against "defenceless Polish civilians") as Poles made most people to believe. And against the popular (that is, Polish) opinion, anti-Polish actions were _not endorsed_ by supreme Ukrainian lidership. According to the official UPA history, it were anti-Polish actions that led to dismissal of the first UPA commander - Dmytro Kliachkivsky (AKA "Klym Savur").
Last edited by Eugen Pinak on 09 Dec 2005, 09:22, edited 1 time in total.

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