Fluke
I agree with you 100%. Soviet Union and Russia was/is bigger threat for Ukraine and Poland. And i think those two brotherlike countries instead of finder pointing of eachother, be on guard.
Again, UPA was also a liberation cause for many non Ukrainian nations who lived under Siviet/Russian regime. Dont forget that.
the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?
lolGeorgien wrote:Fluke
I agree with you 100%. Soviet Union and Russia was/is bigger threat for Ukraine and Poland. And i think those two brotherlike countries instead of finder pointing of eachother, be on guard.
Again, UPA was also a liberation cause for many non Ukrainian nations who lived under Siviet/Russian regime. Dont forget that.
/you have some kind of personal agenda agaisnt Russians. Poles and Ukrainians were massacring each other for tens of years,
But it is Russians who are the bad ones
Ukranian naitonalists were murdering Jews en masse, but it's ok because "Soviet Union murdered more JEws". BTW how many Jews did SU murder? I havent' heard that Soviets were antisemitic. In fact the USSR was ruled by Jews for some time. As for "freedom fighters", most often these people turn into the murderers of civilians. To me these Ukrainain guys are the same as Lithuanian nationalists who murdered civilian Jews coverning it by the nationalist rhetoric, or the Chechen guerillas, who
attack hospitals and schools taking kids as hostages, or the Serbian "heros" massacring Muslim civilians in Srebreniza, or their Croatian counterparts, wiping out Serbian elderly in Srpska Kraina, or for that matter their Muslim rivals who bombed their own people to put blame on Serbs. All of them are "freedom fighters" for their own people and nothing but murderers of innocent people including women and children for the rest of the world. I am sure the majority of muslims in the middle East think that Usama bin Laden is a "freedom fighter".
Hello
The question if the UPA fighters were collaborating with Germans or not is quite perverse. If You look at the UPA itself You can't generally say that they were collaborating with Germans (UPA officially was established in 1942), but if You look at the UPA origins they come from OUN, Nachtigall and Roland Battallions which openly collaborated with Nazi Germans. UPA turned against Germans when it was clear that Hitler will never allow to build Ukrainian state. Untill then Ukrainians and Germans were allied.
What about the massacres of the Polish civillians that were mentioned above? They were and that is a fact - Ukrainians killed about 60 000 (some even say that it was 250 000) Polish civillians. And death not always is the same. You can kill somebody because he is Your enemy and You are at the opposite sides. You can use weapon to kill somebody - that's what usually soldiers or ressistance movements do. But when You are killing women and children using saws, hammers, axes, when You tear people apart with horses that You are nothing but beast from Middleages or from Jakub Szela uprising. And to make it clear UPA (and especially OUN's Sluzba Bezpeky) was also killing the Ukrainians who were not enough Ukrainian according to them, and those who were helping and warning their Polish neighbours.
Poles also have Ukrainians blood on their hands - but remember that evil brings only bigger evil, and Poles was commiting crimes as response to massacres of their own relatives and friends.
I understand that after many years that Ukrainians had to spent in the "paradise on Earth" established by Russians now they are desperatly seeking for the heroes in their history which will help them to build their national pride and their national identity, but I don't think that UPA is the best choice because they are simply too controversial. I as a Polish could accept those Ukrainian patriots who were faighting for they freedom and don't have blood of the innocent people on their hands (if they were fighting with Poles its OK, but if it were Polish soldiers just and only, not women and children).
After I thouht a while I could say that I could even accept UPA as a freedom fighters, but under one condition - present Ukrainians must give the past events their real names and admitt that in their history are events that bring shame on them. We Polish as a nation are proud about our heroes, about our armies that fought whole war and then was betrayed by Allies and sold to Russians, we are proud of the Warsaw Uprising and Home Army, we are proud that we had best military intelligence service during the WWII, what was lately finally admitted by British, we are proud that in Jerusalem there is the largest number of trees with Polish names (and You must remember taht Poland was the only occupied country where helping the Jews was punished with death). But we are also shamed about Jedwabne and about human scums that were selling Jewes and helping them Poles to Gestapo. But we confess that, and we haven't denied these facts saying that it was German provocation or "Jewish fairy tales".
Every nation has dark moments in their history but every nation should confess that because unfortunatelly history determines present. I am really proud of present Ukrainians that they finally told Russians to go away. Now we must unite in efforts to help Ukraine go its own way because nothing had changed since marschall Piłsudski times. There will be no free Poland without free Ukraine. I hope that this time Russians will have not enough strenght to subdue Ukraine. And I hope that Ukrainians will have enough strenght to accept their whole history like Polish (most of us) or Germans (most of them) did.
With whole respect
kat
The question if the UPA fighters were collaborating with Germans or not is quite perverse. If You look at the UPA itself You can't generally say that they were collaborating with Germans (UPA officially was established in 1942), but if You look at the UPA origins they come from OUN, Nachtigall and Roland Battallions which openly collaborated with Nazi Germans. UPA turned against Germans when it was clear that Hitler will never allow to build Ukrainian state. Untill then Ukrainians and Germans were allied.
What about the massacres of the Polish civillians that were mentioned above? They were and that is a fact - Ukrainians killed about 60 000 (some even say that it was 250 000) Polish civillians. And death not always is the same. You can kill somebody because he is Your enemy and You are at the opposite sides. You can use weapon to kill somebody - that's what usually soldiers or ressistance movements do. But when You are killing women and children using saws, hammers, axes, when You tear people apart with horses that You are nothing but beast from Middleages or from Jakub Szela uprising. And to make it clear UPA (and especially OUN's Sluzba Bezpeky) was also killing the Ukrainians who were not enough Ukrainian according to them, and those who were helping and warning their Polish neighbours.
Poles also have Ukrainians blood on their hands - but remember that evil brings only bigger evil, and Poles was commiting crimes as response to massacres of their own relatives and friends.
I understand that after many years that Ukrainians had to spent in the "paradise on Earth" established by Russians now they are desperatly seeking for the heroes in their history which will help them to build their national pride and their national identity, but I don't think that UPA is the best choice because they are simply too controversial. I as a Polish could accept those Ukrainian patriots who were faighting for they freedom and don't have blood of the innocent people on their hands (if they were fighting with Poles its OK, but if it were Polish soldiers just and only, not women and children).
After I thouht a while I could say that I could even accept UPA as a freedom fighters, but under one condition - present Ukrainians must give the past events their real names and admitt that in their history are events that bring shame on them. We Polish as a nation are proud about our heroes, about our armies that fought whole war and then was betrayed by Allies and sold to Russians, we are proud of the Warsaw Uprising and Home Army, we are proud that we had best military intelligence service during the WWII, what was lately finally admitted by British, we are proud that in Jerusalem there is the largest number of trees with Polish names (and You must remember taht Poland was the only occupied country where helping the Jews was punished with death). But we are also shamed about Jedwabne and about human scums that were selling Jewes and helping them Poles to Gestapo. But we confess that, and we haven't denied these facts saying that it was German provocation or "Jewish fairy tales".
Every nation has dark moments in their history but every nation should confess that because unfortunatelly history determines present. I am really proud of present Ukrainians that they finally told Russians to go away. Now we must unite in efforts to help Ukraine go its own way because nothing had changed since marschall Piłsudski times. There will be no free Poland without free Ukraine. I hope that this time Russians will have not enough strenght to subdue Ukraine. And I hope that Ukrainians will have enough strenght to accept their whole history like Polish (most of us) or Germans (most of them) did.
With whole respect
kat
WEll, I've read tht article and I don't see anything new there, jsut the same nationalist rhetoric.
There was a big thread on the Holodomor. You can't even prove that Ukranians were starved deliberately, let alone to prove that they were starved intentionally.
Besides, about the personal agenda agaisnt Russians I meant Georgien not you
I liked the part of your post about accepting past as it was,Every nation has dark moments in their history but every nation should confess that because unfortunatelly history determines present. I am really proud of present Ukrainians that they finally told Russians to go away. Now we must unite in efforts to help Ukraine go its own way because nothing had changed since marschall Piłsudski times. There will be no free Poland without free Ukraine. I hope that this time Russians will have not enough strenght to subdue Ukraine. And I hope that Ukrainians will have enough strenght to accept their whole history like Polish (most of us) or Germans (most of them) did.
With whole respect
kat
but this part about telling Russians to go away and join with Poles ...
Ukranians came to Russian tzar first of all to escape from Poles.
besides, I think many in Europe underestimate how tightly Ukraine is linked with Russia economically and socially.
I think the scheme is not Pro-Poland=anti-Russia or vice versa. I think things are much more complicated.
If you remember Yushenko made his first visit to Russia not to Poland
Then what is this "no free Poland without free Ukraine"?
I guess Ukranians have as difficult history with Poles as they have with Russians, if not more.
Batu
I have no personal or national agendas against the Russians Batu.
The History speaks for itself. As for how many Jews did Russians killed, you can find it in any historical data. Try to look up "Jewish Autonomy," Gulags, Soviet treatment of Jews, and how it was difficult during Soviet era (where i lived) to admit you were a Jew.
As for "Jews ruling SU" it sounds typical anti Semitic remark so many Russians share: "We are in the deep s... because of Jews ruled during Bolshevik uprising. It was also due to Georgian Stalin and Beria. It was due to damn Lithuanians, Armenians, Latvians….. Ukrainian 'benderovshina" also collaborated with Nazis and terrorized "Soviet friendly Ukraine" Yes Batu it was all the Jews, Georgians and Ukrainian “nationalists-benderovshinas" who had hidden anti Russian agendas.
Today, the rightwing movement in Russia which terrorizes non Russian population, has similar arguments as you do. Conspiracy theories about hidden agendas of minorities in their country. Hitler spoke similarly about Jewish “hidden agendas” in Germany.
"Ukranians came to Russian tzar first of all to escape from Poles. "
interesting. Im afraid it far from any historic facts.
"If you remember Yushenko made his first visit to Russia not to Poland"
I don’t see any relevance with the topic.
"I guess Ukranians have as difficult history with Poles as they have with Russians, if not more."
same goes for Russo-Finn relationship.
"You can't even prove that Ukranians were starved deliberately, let alone to prove that they were starved intentionally."
Yes we can and there is mass historical sources for that. But this topic is more about UPA and UON. Not about Genocide of Ukrainians during the intentional starvation of Ukraine's population by SU.
" I am sure the majority of muslims in the middle East think that Usama bin Laden is a "freedom fighter".
LOL. But what that has to do with UPA and UON?
Lets stay on Topic. I think Larry ended the topic nicely. He didn’t have no pro Polish or Pro Ukrainian approach. I agree with him that this is pointless. Polish will have their own bias opinions as much as I. I’ll join Larry and will end it here.
I have no personal or national agendas against the Russians Batu.
The History speaks for itself. As for how many Jews did Russians killed, you can find it in any historical data. Try to look up "Jewish Autonomy," Gulags, Soviet treatment of Jews, and how it was difficult during Soviet era (where i lived) to admit you were a Jew. As for "Jews ruling SU" it sounds typical anti Semitic remark so many Russians share: "We are in the deep s... because of Jews ruled during Bolshevik uprising. It was also due to Georgian Stalin and Beria. It was due to damn Lithuanians, Armenians, Latvians….. Ukrainian 'benderovshina" also collaborated with Nazis and terrorized "Soviet friendly Ukraine" Yes Batu it was all the Jews, Georgians and Ukrainian “nationalists-benderovshinas" who had hidden anti Russian agendas.
Today, the rightwing movement in Russia which terrorizes non Russian population, has similar arguments as you do. Conspiracy theories about hidden agendas of minorities in their country. Hitler spoke similarly about Jewish “hidden agendas” in Germany.
"Ukranians came to Russian tzar first of all to escape from Poles. "
interesting. Im afraid it far from any historic facts.
"If you remember Yushenko made his first visit to Russia not to Poland"
I don’t see any relevance with the topic.
"I guess Ukranians have as difficult history with Poles as they have with Russians, if not more."
same goes for Russo-Finn relationship.
"You can't even prove that Ukranians were starved deliberately, let alone to prove that they were starved intentionally."
Yes we can and there is mass historical sources for that. But this topic is more about UPA and UON. Not about Genocide of Ukrainians during the intentional starvation of Ukraine's population by SU.
" I am sure the majority of muslims in the middle East think that Usama bin Laden is a "freedom fighter".
LOL. But what that has to do with UPA and UON?
Lets stay on Topic. I think Larry ended the topic nicely. He didn’t have no pro Polish or Pro Ukrainian approach. I agree with him that this is pointless. Polish will have their own bias opinions as much as I. I’ll join Larry and will end it here.
Batu
"No free Poland without free Ukraine" was told by our national icon - Joseph Pilsudski, before IIWW. He was convinced that Poland has only chance to survive from Russian aggression if we will be surroundered by free countries that will be our allies. He didn't want to make Poland a large superpower because he knew that sooner or later Ukrainians, Belorussians and others would like to set free and that would be the end of our country, so he tought that the best will be if all of this nations will have their own strenght countries.
After war in 1920 when Soviet Union was defeated by us he tried to set an independent Ukraine with Semen Petlura as Ukrainians chief. But independent country has to had its own army and Ukrainians had only 20 000 or so armed people so they couldn't fight for their country with Russians and Poland was too weak to help them, this weaknes ended in 1939 in the way everybody knows.
As to Ukrainians who turned to Russians in Perejeslav - it happened because both sides Polish and Ukrainians made a lot of political mistakes which ended in atrociuos massacres committed by both sides. Finally Polish "flying Knights" crashed Ukrainian cossakcs at Beresteczko and that was the end of hopes for peacefull solution. We Polish should turn at that moment our country into Three Nations Republic (Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians) but we didn't because of our magnates who had huge landed estates at present Ukraine and they were not interested in such solution which was good for the country but bad for them.
Nobody expects in Poland that Yuschchenko will visit us as first. We know that Ukrainians vital interests are lying in the East because of strategic resources.
And about Polish and Russians. Once we was a superpower, then another superpower started to grow on the East. We have fought so many wars with Moscow that we can call them our "Natural enemy". Russians hate us and I'm not aware to say that, they simply hate us, because always the biggest problems were with Poles. Telling the truth we were the only nation that occupied Kremlin (Napoleon reached Moscow but he didn't stay there), and if we were smart enough in the past and let Polish king's son to turn into Orthodox I can say that the history of the world would be different. But we didn't, our leaders were not smart enough. Then in 1920 we stopped Soviet Union on its way to crash whole Europe. And then in 1981 we have started to destroy Soviet empire which crashed at the beginig of 1990's. So if You think that Ukrainians has complicated history with Moscow You should try to acknowledge our history with Moscow. And at present times Russians all the time are trying to bring us down. They can't do that at the moment by force so they're trying to take us by their resourses which we import or by stopping our export to them. They don't accept the history of the Soviet Union and the fact that they attacked Poland togheter with Germans, and that they are also responsible for the IIWW. They also let Germans in the name of their politics to destroy our capital and to anihilate our intelligentsia togheter with our capital. There is a lot more but we here we talk about Ukrainians.
With regards
kat
kat
"No free Poland without free Ukraine" was told by our national icon - Joseph Pilsudski, before IIWW. He was convinced that Poland has only chance to survive from Russian aggression if we will be surroundered by free countries that will be our allies. He didn't want to make Poland a large superpower because he knew that sooner or later Ukrainians, Belorussians and others would like to set free and that would be the end of our country, so he tought that the best will be if all of this nations will have their own strenght countries.
After war in 1920 when Soviet Union was defeated by us he tried to set an independent Ukraine with Semen Petlura as Ukrainians chief. But independent country has to had its own army and Ukrainians had only 20 000 or so armed people so they couldn't fight for their country with Russians and Poland was too weak to help them, this weaknes ended in 1939 in the way everybody knows.
As to Ukrainians who turned to Russians in Perejeslav - it happened because both sides Polish and Ukrainians made a lot of political mistakes which ended in atrociuos massacres committed by both sides. Finally Polish "flying Knights" crashed Ukrainian cossakcs at Beresteczko and that was the end of hopes for peacefull solution. We Polish should turn at that moment our country into Three Nations Republic (Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians) but we didn't because of our magnates who had huge landed estates at present Ukraine and they were not interested in such solution which was good for the country but bad for them.
Nobody expects in Poland that Yuschchenko will visit us as first. We know that Ukrainians vital interests are lying in the East because of strategic resources.
And about Polish and Russians. Once we was a superpower, then another superpower started to grow on the East. We have fought so many wars with Moscow that we can call them our "Natural enemy". Russians hate us and I'm not aware to say that, they simply hate us, because always the biggest problems were with Poles. Telling the truth we were the only nation that occupied Kremlin (Napoleon reached Moscow but he didn't stay there), and if we were smart enough in the past and let Polish king's son to turn into Orthodox I can say that the history of the world would be different. But we didn't, our leaders were not smart enough. Then in 1920 we stopped Soviet Union on its way to crash whole Europe. And then in 1981 we have started to destroy Soviet empire which crashed at the beginig of 1990's. So if You think that Ukrainians has complicated history with Moscow You should try to acknowledge our history with Moscow. And at present times Russians all the time are trying to bring us down. They can't do that at the moment by force so they're trying to take us by their resourses which we import or by stopping our export to them. They don't accept the history of the Soviet Union and the fact that they attacked Poland togheter with Germans, and that they are also responsible for the IIWW. They also let Germans in the name of their politics to destroy our capital and to anihilate our intelligentsia togheter with our capital. There is a lot more but we here we talk about Ukrainians.
With regards
kat
kat
Oh, Jee. The USSR didn't even exist when you "defeated it". It appeared only in 1921. Russia was in the state of civil war during 1917-1921.After war in 1920 when Soviet Union was defeated by us he tried to set an independent Ukraine with Semen Petlura as Ukrainians chief. But independent country has to had its own army and Ukrainians had only 20 000 or so armed people so they couldn't fight for their country with Russians and Poland was too weak to help them, this weaknes ended in 1939 in the way everybody knows.
Oh, I didn't know Poland was a superpower. I odn't remember "many wars" that Poland fought with Moscow. But I remember that Russia participated in the partition of Poland a couple of times.Once we was a superpower, then another superpower started to grow on the East. We have fought so many wars with Moscow that we can call them our "Natural enemy". Russians hate us and I'm not aware to say that, they simply hate us, because always the biggest problems were with Poles. Telling the truth we were the only nation that occupied Kremlin (Napoleon reached Moscow but he didn't stay there), and if we were smart enough in the past and let Polish king's son to turn into Orthodox I can say that the history of the world would be different. But we didn't, our leaders were not smart enough. Then in 1920 we stopped Soviet Union on its way to crash whole Europe. And then in 1981 we have started to destroy Soviet empire which crashed at the beginig of 1990's
This Polish ocupation of Kremlin is disputed by Lithuanians. That was an adventurous trip by Polish-Lithuanian guys, they were sitting in Kremlin for some time starving untill were driven out by the Russian militia. It happened almost 400 years ago
In 1920 you stopped USSR from crashing the whole Europe?
good job 
And even the breakdown of Soviet Union is your job!
thank you for such a mood raising post.
Batu I would be really suprised if You could remember all wars that Poles and Russians fought, You must be at least 500 years old 
Your knowledge about my country's history is quite small I wouldn't be surprised if You would deny that king Jan III Sobieski saved Vienna from Turks.
Explain me one thing - if it was such a small incident that Kremlin occupation so why Russians the day when these occupants were finally killed made a national holiday.
Don't You think that Bolscheviks sent quite strong army to the West as a weak country with civil war. I understand that Trocki and Tuchachewski were people that lost their minds and took suicide mission to the West ignoring the Whites and Kronschtad uprising.
In 1981 in Poland started something like Solidarity - you can learn more about it in books.
And returning to the main topic. What about that UPA fighters did you find something interesting that will proove that they were collaborants or not.
Your knowledge about my country's history is quite small I wouldn't be surprised if You would deny that king Jan III Sobieski saved Vienna from Turks.
Explain me one thing - if it was such a small incident that Kremlin occupation so why Russians the day when these occupants were finally killed made a national holiday.
Don't You think that Bolscheviks sent quite strong army to the West as a weak country with civil war. I understand that Trocki and Tuchachewski were people that lost their minds and took suicide mission to the West ignoring the Whites and Kronschtad uprising.
In 1981 in Poland started something like Solidarity - you can learn more about it in books.
And returning to the main topic. What about that UPA fighters did you find something interesting that will proove that they were collaborants or not.
My knowledge of Polish history is quite small. I would like to know more about it. but I know Russian history.kat wrote:Batu I would be really suprised if You could remember all wars that Poles and Russians fought, You must be at least 500 years old
Your knowledge about my country's history is quite small I wouldn't be surprised if You would deny that king Jan III Sobieski saved Vienna from Turks.
Explain me one thing - if it was such a small incident that Kremlin occupation so why Russians the day when these occupants were finally killed made a national holiday.
Don't You think that Bolscheviks sent quite strong army to the West as a weak country with civil war. I understand that Trocki and Tuchachewski were people that lost their minds and took suicide mission to the West ignoring the Whites and Kronschtad uprising.
In 1981 in Poland started something like Solidarity - you can learn more about it in books.
And returning to the main topic. What about that UPA fighters did you find something interesting that will proove that they were collaborants or not.
Poland was never a superpower and Russian empire never had a serious war with Poland. I don't count these partitions of Poland as serious wars, neither I count the Teuton knights attacks on the Russian principalities as wars.
Trotsky and Tuhachevsky didn't have any agenda to concuer the Europe in 1920. I don't remember what exactly happened in this particular year, but Reds certainly had no plans to invade neither Poland nor any other countries. Soviets withdrew from the WW1 and concluded a humiliatory Brest-Litovsk peace ceding a lot of territories. during the Civil war it was Western coutnries that intervened in it, not the other way around. If you find any documentary evidence of any war that Reds started with peaceful Poles with the aim to conquer the Europe feel free to post it here.
the holiday you mentioned appeared because it as a closest date in the calendar to substitute the communist holiday of the Revolution. It has nothing to do with Poles neither with Lithuanians. But I find it hilarious how Polish media jas blown out this issue iout of proportions. Russians are not concerned with Poland. One can say Putin might be irritated with the anti-Russian histeria i Poland as well as with its attempts to play Ukraine agaisnt Russia and to "democratize Belarus", but Russians don't hate Poles, at least educated Russians don't. And I believe educated Poles don't hate Russians either. After all I believe average Russians, Ukrainians and Poles have much more in common than Poles and Germans.
AS for the Walesa's movement its impact on the demise of the USSR was minimal. It certainly started the democratization process in the Eastern Europe but the USSR broke down from inside. It was Gorbachev who started this process and Yeltzin, Shushkevich and Kravchuk who finished it off.
AS for the UPA fighters they killed many thousands of innocent people. They are as freedom fighters to me as the Marxist guerillas in Columbia.
-
Benoit Douville
- Member
- Posts: 3184
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 02:13
- Location: Montréal
I must agree with Kat, the Poles were the only nation to occupied Moscow with a victory by the Hetman Stanislaw Zolkiewski at Kluszyn in 1610, the Polish Army entered Moscow. The Poles also stopped the Soviets from invading Europe on the Vistula in warsaw in 1920 with Pilsudski.
Outstanding!
Regards
Outstanding!
Regards
-
Musashi
- Member
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 13 Dec 2002, 16:07
- Location: Coventry, West Midlands, the UK [it's one big roundabout]
- Contact:
Sure, you clever guy.batu wrote:My knowledge of Polish history is quite small. I would like to know more about it. but I know Russian history. Poland was never a superpower and Russian empire never had a serious war with Poland.
Poland was the only state, which troops entered and occupied Moscow for about 2 years. It happened after the battle of Klushino on July 4th 1610, when 6800 Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth troops defeated 35,000-strong Russian army (30,000 Russians and 5000 well-trained foreign mercenaries).
Read this article in Wikipedia.
After that outstanding victory Moscow's citizens decided to open the city gates and Polish garrison stayed there for about 2 years. It was better than Napoleon in 1812, because he entered a burnt out city and did not stay there and better than Germans in 1941, because they just heard the bells of Kremlin. The boyars proposed a Polish king to convert his son to Orthodox Christianity and to become a tsar of Russia. However the king refused, because he wanted the throne for himself. The Polish crew of Kremlin survived a besiege for a long time. They ate rats, horses, books from Kremlin library and even bodies of their fallen comrades. Finally the besieging Russian troops agreed to allow the Poles to leave the Kremlin and return home. After the exhausted Polish soldiers left the Kremlin they were slaughtered.
You should also read about the Battle of Orsha in 1514.
And there were just 2 major battles...
I can take your quote above JUST as a VERY unsophisticated joke.
that's just a bunch of crappy Polish propaganda. The times of 1600-1610 are called the "Dark times" in Russia, as there was no government per se,Ivan the Terrible died, the dynasty of Ryurikovs finished and the power was shifting from one pseudo-tzar to another. There were several psudo-Dimitrius ruling Moscow at the time, like Grigorij Otrepjev, an kossack charlatan. Basicly anybody who wanted could rule Russia at the time. The power nominally was in the hands of the bunch of nobles,Musashi wrote:Sure, you clever guy.batu wrote:My knowledge of Polish history is quite small. I would like to know more about it. but I know Russian history. Poland was never a superpower and Russian empire never had a serious war with Poland.
Poland was the only state, which troops entered and occupied Moscow for about 2 years. It happened after the battle of Klushino on July 4th 1610, when 6800 Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth troops defeated 35,000-strong Russian army (30,000 Russians and 5000 well-trained foreign mercenaries).
Read this article in Wikipedia.
After that outstanding victory Moscow's citizens decided to open the city gates and Polish garrison stayed there for about 2 years. It was better than Napoleon in 1812, because he entered a burnt out city and did not stay there and better than Germans in 1941, because they just heard the bells of Kremlin. The boyars proposed a Polish king to convert his son to Orthodox Christianity and to become a tsar of Russia. However the king refused, because he wanted the throne for himself. The Polish crew of Kremlin survived a besiege for a long time. They ate rats, horses, books from Kremlin library and even bodies of their fallen comrades. Finally the besieging Russian troops agreed to allow the Poles to leave the Kremlin and return home. After the exhausted Polish soldiers left the Kremlin they were slaughtered.
You should also read about the Battle of Orsha in 1514.
And there were just 2 major battles...
I can take your quote above JUST as a VERY unsophisticated joke.
who were enteringin the alliance with this or that force. That a small bunch of Poles, together wiht Ukrainians and Lithuanians were sittingin Kremlin doesn't mean anything. the 5000 of Polish-kossacks defeating 40 000 of Russians is very funny
in 1612 these intervents were expelled from Kremlin by the Russian militia. The militia was gathered by some patriotic people,
who weren't even military
Russia didn't have any army at the time and the little skirmishes with the Polish-Kossack squad can hardly be called a battle at all.
LAter Sigismund wanted to claim Russian throne but was repeleld in 1612 and 1617.
In Russian history this is not even called a war. Because it doesn't qualify as such.
IT was a foreing intervention at the time of the anarchy in Russia, the intervents were expelled by the popular militia and the new dynasty of Romanovs started to rule Russia.
The same relates to the 1920 "war". It seems to me that the moments of Polish glory come for the period of Russian civil war.
When Russia didn't have a government, but a number of gangs fighting each other, Pole swere defending Europe
You see, if you ask Russians about this period (1610) people would't even remember what you re talking about. If that's the most glorious moment in the Polish history let it be. Every nation needs some moments of glory.
Russia owned Poland for so much time but Russians don't even remember this, because it doesn't really matter for the Russian history.
But don't compare yourself to Napoleon. Unlike 1610 in 1812 it was a real war with the real armies and Napoleon had the best army in Europe at the time. But indeed to see Napoleon in the little adventerous gang of Polish-Kossacks is a funny idea
AS for another "battle" you refered to, I don't even remember this. Maybe forPoles it was a battle, russians had wars all their history and no offence but Russian popular memory doesn't remember this date as it was insignificant event.
Batu
You have posted all Soviet history lies that was ever written I think
You have just forget to add that we all are CIA agents and we went into Kremlin for USA money.
Once we was a superpower: Polish and Lithuanian king Vladislav Yagiello's sons and grandsons were rulling in Poland, Lithuania, Hungary and in Czech between 14 th and 16 th century. Two Nations Republic after Lubelska Union was from Tartu and Parnawa to Gdansk and from Gdansk to Doniec and far behind Dnepr into Krim.
And using your proportions if there was no war in 1920 there also was no Winter War at all - it was just small skirmish that Russians propably didn't even noticed 8)
At the end I would like to ask Ukrainians what do they think about the fact that pretty soon there will be an opening of the Ukrainian cemetary in Pawlokoma where lies Ukrainians murdered by our Home Army in some revenge raid.
With best regards
kat
You have posted all Soviet history lies that was ever written I think
You have just forget to add that we all are CIA agents and we went into Kremlin for USA money.
Once we was a superpower: Polish and Lithuanian king Vladislav Yagiello's sons and grandsons were rulling in Poland, Lithuania, Hungary and in Czech between 14 th and 16 th century. Two Nations Republic after Lubelska Union was from Tartu and Parnawa to Gdansk and from Gdansk to Doniec and far behind Dnepr into Krim.
And using your proportions if there was no war in 1920 there also was no Winter War at all - it was just small skirmish that Russians propably didn't even noticed 8)
At the end I would like to ask Ukrainians what do they think about the fact that pretty soon there will be an opening of the Ukrainian cemetary in Pawlokoma where lies Ukrainians murdered by our Home Army in some revenge raid.
With best regards
kat