Heavy and long-range bombers of the allies - exact losses

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BIGpanzer
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#121

Post by BIGpanzer » 24 Dec 2006, 01:59

Hello, Mark V!
For sure it is possible to use both designations – TB-7 and Pe-8 in our discussions (Pe-8 is more common) and didn’t think about exact year of WWII :wink: You are right, probably, I also confused these two designations but I tried to use them as much correct as possible when I described the production years of that heavy bomber and the fates of all produced bombers.

There were the following modifications:

ANT-42 – prototype of heavy bomber (1936) with 4xAM-34FRN engines + 1xM-100 engine as system of main pressure charging [30 t, 3000 km range, 403 km/h, 10800 m ceiling]. The same designation had the 2nd copy (“backup”, 1938) and small series of 5 bombers (series 1) – they were equipped with 4xAM-34FRNV + 1xM-100A engines, had improved construction of airframe and fuel tanks with increased capacity [max. flying weight 32 t, 3500 km range, 430 km/h, 11250 m ceiling].
In summer 1941 all were reequipped with 4xAM-35A engines.

TB-7 – serial bombers (1940-1941) with AM-35 or AM-35A engines, internal fifth engine and turbochargers were removed. Bombers had modified defensive armament (2x20 + 2x12.7 + 2x7.62) - [35 t, 3600 km range, 443 km/h, 9300 m ceiling]. Some bombers were equipped with diesels M-40 or M-30 [33.5 t, 5460 km range, 393 km/h, 9200 m ceiling], later diesel bombers were reequipped with AM-35A.

Pe-8 – serial bombers (1942-1944) with four engines AM-35A or AM-37 or M-82/M-82F/M-82FNV/ASh-82FN (1/3 of all produced Pe-8) or M-105, additional fuel tanks, defensive armament with additional third 20mm gun. Some bombers were equipped with diesels M-40F or M-30 or ACh-30B. Since 1943 – new nose part, bombers of the series 9 and later had enhanced tailwheel.
[Pe-8 with M-82 – 36 t, 5800 km range, 422 km/h, 9500 m ceiling] [Pe-8 with ACh-30B diesels – 35.5 t, 7800 km range, 390 km/h, 8200 m ceiling]. Pe-8 ON – two passenger variants with diesels ACh-30B (1944, see above).

TB-7/Pe-8 were produced by air factories No. 22 (Moscow) and No. 124 (Kazan).

ANT-42 - http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/b/674/1/0/1
TB-7 with AM-35A engines - http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/b/674/1/0/8
TB-7 with M-40 diesels - http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/b/674/1/0/9
Pe-8 with ASh-82FN engines and new nose part - http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/b/674/1/2/4

PS. Merry Xmas!!!!

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#122

Post by BIGpanzer » 24 Dec 2006, 14:21

We've discussed already the bombing raids of Pe-8 against Berlin, Danzig, Warsaw, Königsberg as well as against Helsinki and Tallinn.
Less is known about use of Pe-8 over Bucharest and Ploesti (since 1942), Budapest (1944), some sources mention that Pe-8 bombed Vienna also. Does anybody have any info about those missions?

As for bombing raids over Bucharest - I found, for example, one mention that Pe-8 (1st pilot Arkharov) bombed Bucharest 10.09.1942. One engine catched fire 100 km from the city but the bomber continued flight on three engines, dropped bombs from 4000 m altitude and successfully returned back.

P.S. By the way, I am wondering that nobody wants to post any info about losses of B-24 "Liberators" during the raid against oil refeneries of Romanian Ploesti 1 August, 1943.
AFAIK 178 B-24 from five bombardment groups from bases near Benghazi in Libya, commanded by Brigadier-General Uzal G. Ent, participated in that raid (Operation Tidal Wave) - the Americans lost 53 aircraft, 44 of them to the Romanian and German defenses. Only 88 aircraft returned back to base in Libya, though many were severely damaged. The other survivors had to ditch in the Mediterranean, divert to other bases, or fly to neutral Turkey, where the crews were interned. 440 men were killed, and a further 220 were taken prisoner.


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#123

Post by BIGpanzer » 25 Dec 2006, 19:21

I found the following info: till the end of 1942 Soviet long-range aviation (ADD) performed 9 raids against Berlin, 13 - against Constanta, 8 - against Bucharest, 27 - against Ploesti.
In August-September 1942 Soviet bombers (including Pe-8) bombed Königsberg, Budapest, Warsaw, Stettin, Memel, several other cities of East Prussia and Poland.
746th regiment (equipped with Pe-8) performed 136 flights during August 1942 (336 t of bombs and 5.5 mil. of leaflets were dropped, 1 bomber and 7 crewmembers were lost only).

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#124

Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Dec 2006, 17:43

Let me continue to post the info about fates of all TB-7/Pe-8:

66. No. 42210, Red 8 from 10th July, 1943 - serial Pe-8.
Engines: 4xASh-82 (1540-1700 hp).
The bomber was produced on 30th May, 1943.
1st pilot - major Dodonov (squadron commander of 746th regiment, Hero of USSR), later - Zelensky.
That bomber participated in many bombing raids (for example, in dangerous flights over Orel in July 1943; dropped FAB-5000 bomb 09.03.1944 over Tallinn). It was used also for tests of different models of engine flash supressors in autumn 1943 after the losses of several heavy bombers during night time because of large and observable flame tails from exhaust manifolds of M-82 (ASh-82) engines. Research Institute of Air Forces developed the best flash supressor, but it was decided to use flash supressors, developed by engineers of 45th long-range air division (improved analogue of flash supressor from captured German Fw 200). That model was installed on all Pe-8 with M-82/ASh-82 engines since the end of 1943.

67. No. 42310, Blue 12 from 17th August, 1943 - serial Pe-8.
Engines: 4xASh-82 (1540-1700 hp).
The bomber was produced on 5th July, 1943.
No more info.

68. No. 42410, Red 1 - serial Pe-8.
Engines: 4xASh-82 (1540-1700 hp).
The bomber was produced on 13th August, 1943.
1st pilot - major Ishchenko (squadron commander, Hero of USSR). The bomber participated in bombing raids over Königsberg, Helsinki (dropped FAB-5000), Tilsit.

69. No. 42510, Blue 13 - serial Pe-8.
Engines: 4xASh-82 (1540-1700 hp).
The bomber was produced in August, 1943.
1st pilot - major Vikhorev.
Blue 13 was knocked down by German night fighters (according to another source - by AA guns, the shell damaged fuel tanks and the bomber catched fire) on 23rd August, 1943 during the bombing raid over Orel. 5 crewmembers were killed, others bailed out (including heavily wounded navigator) and reached Soviet positions.

70. No. 42610, Yellow 3 - serial Pe-8.
Engines: 4xASh-82 (1540-1700 hp).
The bomber was produced on 23rd August, 1943.
1st pilot - Sumtsov.


PS. Some interesting facts about TB-7/Pe-8.
a) Petlyakov developed the pressure cockpits for that heavy bomber in 1936-1937, but his arrest in 1937 stopped the work.

b) It was planned to produce Pe-8 with turbocompressors TK-3 for ASh-82FN engines in 1943, but that plan was rejected. Specifications of Pe-8 with TK-3: max. flight weight 37.5 t, 500 km/h, 11000 m ceiling, range 6000 km with 2 t of bombs. But several bombers with ACh-30B diesels and centrufugal supercharger were produced in 1944 (engine became reliable at least, especially at high altitudes).

c) Serial TB-7/Pe-8 were used also as military transport planes during WWII. In 1939 the special external cabin for 12 paratroopers was tested in flight - that cabin had dimensions 5.6x1.27 m and was placed instead of bomb hatches of TB-7. It was recommended to produce such removable cabins in series but that never happened. In March 1941 the special military transport modification of TB-7 was tested - the bomber was equipped with two additional doors (1.15x0.75 m) in the tail section for paratroopers and cargos, longerons and airframe were strengthened, pendent platform with seats for 32 paratroopers (it could be used for transportation of 4 t of cargos also) was placed inside the bomb bay, 8 additional seats for paratroopers were placed behind the pilot's cabin + hatch for exit on the wing was installed as well as additional ice-protection system and system for exhaust filling of fuel tanks. Bomb sights SPB-2MU and NKPB-3 (that modification could carry one FAB-2000 also), radiostation RSB-bis and gun turrets with electric drives were kept (bottom hatch MG was removed, nevertheless). That transport plane was tested in March-June 1941, but the beginning of the war prevented its production.
In 1942 one Pe-8 was reequipped to transport 20 pilots in bomb bay from USSR to UK (the pilots ferried Lend-Lease aircraft).

d) Three disarmed Pe-8 was used by Soviet civil polar aviation as transport planes and air tankers till the middle of 1950s (transported cargos and fuel for polar stations). They had registration numbers H-396, H-550, H-562. H-562 was equipped with dorsal fin, new navigator's cabin, engines from Il-12. H-562 transported helicopter Mi-1 using external store to polar region in 1952.

e) As I've already mentioned - 3 Pe-8s were used as carriers for guided missiles 10x and 14x by Chelomei in 1945-1948; Pe-8 No. 42911 was used as carrier for rocket aircraft "5" (speed 1200 km/h) by Bisnovat in 1948-1949 -
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/xplane/5/5-7.jpg
One Pe-8 was used for tests of new aircraft engines after WWII, for that purpose the nose turret was removed and engine mount was placed instead of it -
http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/b/674/1/2/6

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#125

Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Dec 2006, 19:54

An interesting info about the use of US B-29 by Soviets during WWII (5 damaged US B-29 landed on Soviet Far-East in 1944-1945) and the production of Tu-4 (improved copy of B-29) by Soviet plants after WWII. One B-29 (No. 42-6256) was used by Pe-8's pilot Ishchenko from 890th regiment in 1945 - interesting note, that Soviet pilots received the order - "you must study B-29 and begin to flight in two days", and they could do this.

From http://www.14tbap.ru/showpost.php?p=31807&postcount=3.
Unfortunately, I have no time and possibility to translate this text by myself using a vocabulary, so this is a Babel Fish translation as it is, sorry :oops:
Apparently, very first information about the appearance in THE USA of a new heavy bomber with the uncommonly high characteristics reached the Soviet management during the visit Of e.Rikenbeykera to THE USSR in 1943- m. the foreign department of the Air Force was then it was set in the difficult situation. From one side, Rikenbeyker as the adviser of President Roosevelt, it required the appropriate formation. With another - it from the times of the First World War preserved the title of army captain and according to the diplomatic rules could not obtain in those accompanying the officer of higher title. As a result to it they put young officer, recent graduate of air force academy, captain a.I.Smolyarova, who well managed English. In THE USSR Rikenbeykeru they showed a number of military plants and military subdivisions. Flying over from one airfield to another, Smolyarov and Rikenbeyker whiled away time after the conversations on different themes. During one of such conversations American guest mentioned about the new bomber B -29, after reporting his high flight-performance data. As it was relied, after the departure Of rikenbeykera home accompanying prepared report, after including in it and information about the new aircraft. This point generated immediate interest, and For smolyarovu it was necessary to prepare the special report, in which it recollected everything which told about B -29. posle this it began the systematic collection of information about this machine along all official and unofficial channels. On 19 July 1943- GO the leader of Soviet military mission in THE USA General Belyayev inquired Americans about the possibility of deliveries on the lend-lease of the models of aircraft P -38, P -47, B -24 and B -29. from this list Americans transmitted to the Soviet Union only three R -47. After two years, on 28 May THE USSR asked already 120 V -29 for the use in the Far East against Japan. However, Americans gave not one. The Soviet Union already was by this time had three, thus far the even American of a bomber of this type. In all boundary with THE USSR crossed five B -29. the first of them villages to the airfield of naval aviation Central- angular, located approximately in 30 km to the north of Vladivostok, during July 1944 the aircraft, which belonged to 771-1 squadron of 462-1 bomber group, had a number 42-6256 and a designation Of "remp Of tremp" (Ramp Tramp). This B -29-5-bw was hit by the Japanese gunners above An'shanem in Manchuria. Aircraft commander was captain Howard dzharell. Because of the damaged motor the commander decided not "to pull" to his airfield and entered into the airspace of the Soviet Union. The aircraft the destroyers VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet intercepted and they gave him to the airfield in the environs of Vladivostok. According to acted at that time Soviet-Japanese agreement about the neutrality, bomber and crew they were internirovany. This practice related to all fallen on the territory of the Far East in the course of war shooting American aircraft, beginning with V -25 of e.Yorka from the group of Doolittle, who sit downed on the airfield Unashi during April 1942- GO. In this way into the hands of Soviet pilots subsequently fell a significant quantity V -25, V -24, Pv-1 and Pv-2, which were sitting down themselves in essence in Kamchatka, on the airfields of 128-1 mixed air division. Part of them during August 1945- GO was used in the war shooting against Japan. B -29-5-bw remained on the Central- the angular, and the crew Of dzharella they crossed into the special division, which ensured the delivery of Americans into the special composite camp in Central Asia. Although the representatives of Japanese embassy observed the camp, to American pilots periodically was arranged "flight" and they declared on the bases OF THE USA in Iran. On 20 August 1944- GO through the boundary on the river Amur flew over one additional lame duck. This time B-29a-1- BN of ¹ya2-9e829 (according to others data - ¹ya2-9e29) of 395-1 squadron of the 40th group. It they lined during the film on the steel mills in Yavate. Aircraft commander R.Mak- is clayey, after outbalancing across the river, it gave order to jump. All members of crew satisfactorily landed by the parachutes. The unguided bomber cut into the knoll in Khabarovsk region. The following became B -29-15-bw of ¹ya2-'e'shch. During November 1944- GO it with the combat mission in Japan fell into the typhoon and it was insignificantly damaged by lightning. Crew headed by captain u.Prays lost orienting and on the remainders of fuel flew so far to the coast of the Soviet Far East. Sat down himself Price on the airfield Central- angular, there, where and first B -29. this aircraft with the inscription on board "General kh.Arnol'd speshiel" belonged to 794-1 squadron 486-1 of group. The fourth machine of village during November 1944 this B -29-15-bw of Lieutenant mikish (or, on another document - Miklisha) it bombed g.Omuru and left from the purpose on three motors, the fourth derived from the system Japanese destroyers. On its coast Soviet destroyers met and brought to the airfield. This B -29 had ¹ya2-'eshch8 and onboard inscription "ding Khao". It is considerably later, during August 1945- GO, in THE USSR fell fifth B -29. the aircraft it appeared in the region of airfield Kanko, where the 14th destructive air regiment VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet rested. It intercepted two pairs Yak-9 and fired, as a result of which on the bomber left outer motor caught fire. B -29 sat down here, on the airfield Kanko. Since all this occurred already after the declaration OF THE USSR the war of Japan and, correspondingly, denouncement of the treaty of neutrality, machine, apparently, after repair they returned. The number of this aircraft and the subdivision, to which it belonged, established could not be (approximately at this time NKAP was directed in NKO the letter, in which it was indicated that according to available data in Korea on the territory of the arrangement of our troops find B -29. in connection with this OF NKAP it requested to take measures for the stage of aircraft in THE USSR, but if this is impossible, then dismantle the necessary aggregates and equipment. It is completely possible that this there was fifth B -29). In the total in the hands VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet proved to be three damaged B -29. the druggie of navy Admiral N.G.Kuznetsov it ordered to organize the study of new American technology. For this toward the Far East was directed the deputy chief of the flying inspection VVS VMF Lieutenant Colonel s.B.Reydel. Reydel', which worked earlier by tester in the individual sea force of scientific-experimental institute VVS (OHM NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE VVS), and then in NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE VVS of navy in Sevastopol, for its life mastered many aircraft types, it managed English. Since in the Pacific Ocean fleet at that time not there were pilots, familiar with the American machines (lend-lizovskiye aircraft dispatch directly to the front), from the Black sea they sent on business the two additional pilots (one of them it was V.P.Marunov), thus far the flown in American A -20. Engineers A.F.Chernova M.M.Kruglova selected from the composition VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet. On 1 January two B -29 find at the disposal of control VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet and one more - in 35-1 individual long-range bombardment squadron. This part formed specially for tests B -29. in the final analysis into it they entered two B -29 and one V -25. Flights were conducted from the airfield Romanovsky, that had good approaches (it not it was surrounded by knolls as the majorities of other Far-Eastern airfields). Reydel' independently mastered B -29, using the documentation, found on one of the aircraft. First it taxied on the airfield, made approaches and finally it took off. The systematic study B, began from January 1945. One of B -29 they charged to experience V.P.Marunovu and A.F.Chernovu. To the mastery of aircraft they led two days since with the English in both it was not very well, on the bomber they climbed with the thick volume of English-Russian dictionary. On the third day Of reydel' was officially accepted in them the test. On 9 January they carried out four familiarization flights (Reydel' - on the left seat, Marunov - on by right). Marunov it began to fly independently from 11 January. Tests B -29 in the Far East continued until 21 June. It was possible to determine basic data of aircraft. They proved to be somewhat below, obtained in THE USA. For example, the maximum speed definite during the tests did not exceed 580 km/h, but the gain of altitude of 5000 m occupied 16,5 minutes. However, this was naturally, if one considers that the aircraft was not new and was passed repair. Were executed several altitude flights, flights to checking of maximum range along the closed route and to the bombing. During June-July two B -29 outdistanced into Moscow. The first aircraft conducted Reydel' with copilot by Major morzhakov and flight engineer m.M.Kruglov. They accomplished landing on the airfield in the Izmailovs, in the outskirts of Moscow. There was located 65-1 regiment of special designation, which combined transport and test-experiment tasks in the system of naval aviation. Takeoff and landing strip was there sufficiently short, but, after manufacturing the remainders of fuel, For reydelyu it was possible to sit down. Satisfactorily landed the aircraft, piloted By marunovym. Later to Moscow from the Far East it arrived and third B -29. one B -29 (¹ya2-'2shch') on commanding long-range aviation marshal a.E.Golovanov's request they transmitted into 890-1 regiments, which stood then on the airfield Balbasovo under g.Orsha. It commanded E.K.Pusep. This was uncommon regiment. Because of the shortage of domestic heavy bombers the Soviet AIR FORCE they began to gather and to restore the American aircraft, which completed forced landings in East Europe. On 1 July 1945- GO, besides 9 Soviet P -8, the regiment had available 19 V -25 and 12 V -17 (modifications F and G). Another regiment of the same division was brought up to strength by aircraft B -24. thus, American four-engine bombers were by this time already mastered by Soviet pilots. Since and V -17, and B -29 designed the designers of one and the same firm "Boeing", their sochli by "close relatives". 890- m to regiment on "superfortresse" flew the crew N.A.Ishchenko. Aircraft, as many machines in this part, preserved on board the inscription Of "remp Of tremp" and the image of unshaven tramps. Veto was assigned only to the pictures with the exposed girls, the painted on the requirement vigilant political workers. All the remaining emblems, including the signs of connections on the keel V -17, it remained. For example, K.Ikonnikov it recalled, that to its B -17f stood in beauty the hare with the bomb. But in the regiment aircraft stayed not long. Already during May 1945- GO in the management of the country the study of the possibility of copying B -29 for the Soviet AIR FORCE began. Aircraft was clearly very successful. If it would be possible rapidly to copy it, then VVS was had chance to obtain contemporary heavy bomber, passing the troublesome stage of the finishing of the newly projected machines. In the documents of the people's commissariat of the aircraft industry the first reference about copying B -29 is encountered in aircraft designer v.M.Myasishchev's letter to the druggie of aircraft industry To a.I.Shakhurinu of 25 May, 1945. In it, in particular, it was said: "entire work on the release of drawings (B -29) can be executed BY OKB of tov. Nezvalya, by series-design division and by the part of the designers of our OKB, which is located at the 22nd plant, freed from the work on series P -2 ". In the same letter one should have used domestic motors ASH -72 and guns B -20 instead of the American machine guns. But the task to copy American bomber and to arrange its release for designation the b-th ("bomber four-engine") they charged to more authoritative OKB Of a.N.Tupoleva. The solution about this the state committee of defense under the chairmanship Of i.V.Stalina accepted on 6 June, and the corresponding order of the people's commissariat of the aircraft industry appeared in two weeks. It said: "to chief designer to tov.Tupolevu immediately to approach the development of drawings, mold lofts and technical documentation on the aircraft the b-th, considering this work first priority task for the design and production associations of the plant of ¹yshch'.... for purposes of every possible boosting of works on the aircraft the b-th to create at the plant of ¹22 to help to basic OKB of tov.Tupoleva experimental-design bureau for aircraft the b-th with the start in it of entire personnel OF OKB of tov. Nezvalya, OKB of tov. Myasishcheva at the plant of ¹22 and experimental shop of the plant of ¹22 ". The circle of the tasks of different organizations was further refined by order. To Tupolev charged to undock V -29 to the aggregates, to remove theoretical circumscriptions, to dismantle equipment and to transmit to his appropriate plants; to chief VIAM - ALL-UNION SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE OF AVIATION MATERIALS To tumanovu - to organize the study of all construction materials B -29 and to give orders to plants for the unmastered materials; to the chief OF TSIAM Polikovskomu - to organize the study of power plant and to conduct the necessary tests and the modifications, which would make it possible to place on the new aircraft domestic engines ASH -73 and special turbocompressors; to the chief OF TSAGI - CENTRAL INSTITUTE OF AEROHYDRODYNAMICS IM. N YE ZHUKOVSKIY To shishkinu - to study the study of aerodynamics and strength of aircraft; to the chief of the scientific institute of aircraft equipment - to conduct the study of equipment B -29 and to prepare tasks for the plants with respect to its series output. First "Soviet B -29" the b-th ordered to let out to the tests after only yr - during June 1946. The b-th had to to the trifles correspond B -29 with exception of engines ASH -73TK (with copying of American turbocompressors), rifle armament (instead of the machine guns - gun), the storage batteries, the indentification equipment of "friend-foe" and the more advanced short-wave radio station, also American model. The b-th it were put into production at the plant of ¹22 in Kazan, where in connection with this they ended the production of bombers P -2 and stopped work on preparation for building of the experimental model of the four-engine bomber Of a.N.Tupoleva "64". Within the framework of the program of creation the b-th aircraft B -29 of ¹ya2-'2shch' they transmitted into the Flight- research institute (LEAHS) for the study and for the finishing of power plant with the engines ASH -73TK. The aircraft of ¹ya2-'e'shch decided to dismantle for removing the drawings, and ¹ya2-'eshch8 just in case to leave as standard. "remp Of tremp" outdistanced from Balbasova in Zhukovskiy the mixed crew: from 890- GO of regiment - aircraft commander N.A.Ishchenko, while from LEAH - test pilot m.L.Gallay's known. The instruction Of gallay was passed directly in motion - during the flight. After delivery B -29 in LEAH gallaya they loaded by tests German captured rocket aircraft Me -163B, and American bomber accepted crew N.S.Rybko (copilot I.I.Shuneyko). To building of the first the b-th wanted to thoroughly study the special features of piloting B -29. all three American machines they obtained in THE USSR identification numbers in the form of three last figures of factory serial number - "256", "365" and "358". Them applied on the keel higher than the old number, by larger numbers. The Red Stars drew on the spot of the symbols of American VVS. Aircraft "365" on the night with 10 on 11 July they delivered to the central airfield in Moscow, after establishing in the large hangar. After inspection by Tupolev and by his assistants, machine they immediately began to rasstykovyvat' and to measure for the tracing of sketches. The individual brigade of designers and technologists studied each separate aggregate. They thoroughly weighed detail, all sizes were removed, they photographed and technical description made. Furthermore, details were subjected to spectral analysis for the explanation, from what material they were prepared. Several ten thousands of drawings was made. The carried out work showed that the majority of the technical solutions and the construction materials B -29 are differed from those mastered in the domestic aircraft construction. More advanced proved to be the technology of production. "it is necessary to accomplish colossal work, to raise aviation culture to the new, very high step", stated one of the leaders of the aircraft industry Of p.V.Dement'ev at the special conference on the aircraft b-th during December 1945 for accelerating the starting of new aircraft into a series they wanted to stock up in THE USA such component product as starters, radars An/apq-13, blind landing systems VS-"ee, of landing gear wheel, propellers" Hamilton of Standard ", bearings, different instruments, spark plugs to engine mountings. But as an eventual result all this began to make in THE USSR. Specifically, different equipment, which was absent in our country and created anew, became the main reason for delay from the original plans, although to all works on the b-th they granted priority at the higher level. Order NKAP clearly specified: "all orders on the aircraft the b-th to consider most important and to ensure their fulfillment out of any order". In the middle 1946- GO in Tupolev's OKB they prepared the full-scale mock-up of future aircraft, and on 19 May 1947- GO took off the first the b-th (in autumn the same year aircraft obtained designation thuya). Experimental model they did not construct, they immediately placed a series of 20 machines. Recalls M.L.Gallay: "when arrived in time the first series" that - the fourth "at the Kazan' plant, the first, head machine accepted small fish and Shuneyko. I was assigned to the second, and before the departure to Kazan flew again, for the refreshment of habits, on the same "remp To trempe". Thuya ¹2, although it was copy B -29, it had differences, unfortunately, not to the best side. The survey, even without that squeezed by the frequent binding (body) of nose machine part, sufficiently strongly spoiled by the distortion of entire of that seen through the glazing. On the landing you will look through one "small square" - like, it is high. You will look through another - low-. Running in forward, I will say that also, which also tested my crew, this deficiency eliminated not was in the last machine of an experimental series - "twenty rouble note" - we then yet did not learn to make the nondistorting bent glass. The second deficiency is thuya in comparison with B -29 - heavy control, especially along the bank. First whether not was selected the optimum tension of ropes, then the bushings, through which the control run left from the pressurized cabin, were characterized by something, I do not know. Later with me it was brought to poletat' on the aircraft V -17, and 4 with the surprise it revealed that the passage of "Boeing" to B -29 was step back on the piloting qualities, but not forward. Both on the survey and on the ease of control V -17 it was better. Apparently, were said the expenses of passage to the pressurized cabins ". In the tests of the first the b-th participated also V.P.Marunov, invited By a.N.Tupolevym in OKB as the test pilot. During August 1947- GO three b-th they participated in the air display in Tushino. They frequently consider in the West, until now that these were American B -29. However, the fates of three "super-fortresses" were formed as follows. Aircraft "358" (standard) so stood in Izmailov, where different specialists inspected his from time to time. For example, air force academy greatly interested herself in power plant and she prepared her detailed descriptions and diagrams. To fly with this machine it was no longer brought. That dismantled by "365" they in parts delivered into Kazan, where from December 1945- GO they began to mount again it. But bomber so they did not lead into the initial form. This was connected with the fact that since the beginning 1946- GO OKB of Tupolev it was occupied by the all-passenger layout the b-th - by aircraft "70" (Tu-70). For accelerating building prototype in it they decided to use some knots from "365". They took the detachable wing sections, pod (overall sizes R-3350 and ASH -73TK they were very close), flaps, basic landing gear struts and tail assembly by pillar. Something was used from B -29, which was broken near Khabarovsk. During October 1947- GO Tu-70 it finished plant tests, after yr - state. But into a series aircraft did not fall because of the overload of industry, occupied with the production of bombers thuya. Only built Tu-70 flew up to 1954 it it participated in different experimental programs, were achieved passenger and transport transportation on the special tasks. Most intensively was exploited B -29 of ¹2shch', which was being located in LEAH. When appeared series thuya, it began to use as a carrier of the experimental supersonic rocket aircraft "346" of German designer g.Ressing. During April 1948- GO B -29 they sent into Kazan for the re-equipment. Pylon for the suspension of rocket aircraft was installed under the right console between the pods. In 1948-1949 on the military airfield in by heat camp (now this one of the residential areas of Moscow) with B -29 discarded "with 346- P" and "346-1" - the engineless versions of German rocket aircraft. Them they piloted German pilot v.Tsize and Russian pilot p.I.Kaz'min. After the completion of test program B -29 they returned in Zhukovskiy. Short time it was used for the small research works, and then they copied it, after dismantling to the scrap metal. The history three B -29, which arrived in the Soviet Union, thus ended. Their descendants, thuya, were let out to 1952. On the whole they built 847 aircraft of different modifications - usual bomber thuya, carriers of nuclear weapons Tu-â, rocket carriers Tu-4KS with two cruise missiles "KS" under the wings. Subsequently, by the alteration of the already available machines appeared truck Tu-4D and Tu-4T, intelligence officers Tu-4R, training Tu-ûWS, commanding staff aircraft, aircraft- tankers and a number of experimental versions. In VVS these machines of lethal factor prior to the beginning of the 60th it is annual. In this time them only one time they raised for the combat mission - on the night with 3 on 4 November 1956- GO. Thuya of 43-1 air force they sent to bomb risen Budapest, but, when to the purpose it remained 450 km, they abolished order. Thuya, that replaced in VVS obsolete P -8, Il-4 and V -25, made it possible to raise Soviet long-range aviation to the new qualitative level, to create the properly strategic Air Force. But also itself it was sufficiently rapidly substituted with the jet bombers of domestic construction - Tu-16 and Tu-95.

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#126

Post by Mark V » 27 Dec 2006, 21:02

Hi,

Nice information about Tu-4 Bull. It is refreshing to see text like:
"it is necessary to accomplish colossal work, to raise aviation culture to the new, very high step"
Text written by Soviets, sincerely anknowledging that they were years behind what the best aviation engineering in the west could accomplish - B-29 being the showcase.

---

And let's not forget that:

- Tu-4 was operational around 1949.
- B-50 (truly an development of B-29) was operational in 1948.


Regards, Mark V

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#127

Post by BIGpanzer » 28 Dec 2006, 02:26

Hi, Mark V!

Your attempts to detract the whole Soviet aircraft industry shows your personal preferences as always :| , but you quoted one of the interesting and correct info indeed (avoiding another, of course).
By the way, the info about Tu-4 you liked so much was not written by Soviets (who very seldom mentioned that prototype of Tu-4 was US B-29 in reality, which is obvious), but was analyzed by modern Russian specialist.

You should be much more objective and distinguish aircraft/engine design engineering (the world’s best were Soviets in 1930s and in 1950s-1970s at least, do you know also that many famous US aircraft of 1940s-1960s were developed by expatriate Russian (fortunately, not Soviet) engineers) and aircraft production/technology culture (Soviet was very average during 1941-1943,especially, because of many obvious reasons).

The quote you’ve mentioned shows the necessity of improvement the production technology of aircraft navigation equipment and many other equipment in reality (not directly aircraft/engine engineering if you know the history of Soviet and world aviation) and, which was much more important for that time - to introduce the new standards in relations between the main air factories and components suppliers (the largest problem of all Soviet industries, Soviet engineers and designers were always among the best but Soviet local production chains/technological culture were very average often). By the way - B-29 was the most complicated US aircraft and I advice you to read the sources about the difficulties of US factories to start its production and eliminate its first numerous construction disadvantages. Soviets very quickly organized the large series production of improved Tu-4 without such great experience as US engineers had (large scale production of B-17, for example), take into consideration the destroyed USSR after that war and a lot of other political/recovery problems of postWWII country, and the year was 1946-1947. The order was "simple" - not to wait the development and tests of modern native bombers but to recount all dimensions of B-29 from inches into mm, make the full copies of all B-29 details including the smallest ones (screws, wires), improved them as much as possible, organized the serial production of all details, developed the relations between all factories (many of them were built a new) - deadline was several months in principle. Even the sorts ant types of metals should be identical with American despite the fact that Soviet industry produced differ types of native metals and alloys of good quality - that caused the establishing of additional metallurgy industry and waste of money in this particular case. That was really a huge and extremelly hard amount of work, and you quoted this exactly

Of course, you know that Soviet airplane engineering made the great step forward in the end of 1920s-beg.1930s, achieving the leading positions. Soviets developed a huge amount of excellent aircraft (including complicated aerodynamic schemes, unique helicopters and even air-cushion vessels many years before those were developed in the West), serial aircraft of the beg. 1930s (SB, I-16) were also among the world's best. Another question that despite the excellent aircraft engineering school, good technical traditions and very talented designers (Soviet planes of corresponding periods always have excellent aerodynamics, speed, ceiling and climbing rate, I mean also prototypes and experimental aircraft, some Tupolev's and Bartini's prototypes of 1934-1936 had the same specifications as famous fighters of 1944-1945) USSR began to get behind in the production of radiostations, navigation equipment and bomb sights in 1939-1940 as well as in production technology (there were many reasons - another aims of industry, arrests and repressions against designers/high rank officers during the Stalin's regime, especially in 1937-1938, random reforms of industry before WWII).

Soviet WWII serial aircrafts had still excellent flight specifications, but they were adapted and simplified for production by evacuated air factories, their production quality was not so good as in 1930s of course, their equipment was average in comparison with US or German in the end of WWII.

The next great and even fantastic step of Soviet aircraft (and space) industry for the bleeding after the horrible war country started in the beginning of 1950s, when USSR became the leader again. But this is far away from my present interests and this topic.

But I would like to mention some main steps of Soviet heavy bombers development.
TB-1 (1925) - the world'd first serial heavy all-metal bomber-monoplane (some ideas were taken from the collaboration with Junkers, nevertheless). The "ancestor" of all further heavy bombers, by the way.
TB-3 (1930) - one of the most outstanding construction for that period, "technical excellence" according to the opinions of French and German designers.
Super-heavy experimental bombers - TB-4 with 6 engines, K-7 with 7 engines. Excellent constructions from the engineering piont of view, but dead-ended branch of bomber tactics for the mid1930s.
DB-A (1934) - good and modern long-range bomber, but as it represented the very improved TB-3 only it became obsolete quite fast.

TB-7/Pe-8 is a good example of excellent Soviet aircraft engineering from the one hand and big problems in the organization of serial production/political problems from another. TB-7 (1936) was a large step forward in heavy bomber's design and had flight specifications, exceded the same of the best fighters of the period! Petlyakov developed pressured cabins for it in 1936, but he was arrested. The planned engines with individual turbochargers (earlier then they were developed in USA) for the long-range flights at very high altitudes were not installed in 1938-1940 (the temporary solution - fifth engine for central pressure charging was used instead individual turbochargers as well as many models of fighter engines, which were not good for long-range high-altitude flights). Petlyakov unsuccessfully insisted to introduce modern technological method of production of TB-7 much more earlier than such method was used for the production of heavy bombers in USA, but despite of all his attempts the old slow and very complicated for the war conditions technology (which needed in experienced workers and very accurate machine-tools also) of the production of heavy bombers were used in USSR till 1944. I even don't mention the order of NKVD chief L. Beriya to stop the production of TB-7 in 1939 because Germans didn't produce heavy bombers also. As I've already mentioned, war situation on the Eastern Front played a great role in the style of WWII production of Soviet aircraft (their types, design, technology). Evacuated factories with many unexperienced workers (12-14 year old children and women mainly, quite many experienced workers went to the war as volunteers, a lot of equipment couldn't be evacuated from occupied territories) could't produce at first such planes with all possible modern equipment for long-range flights, and the quality of Pe-8 autopilots, for example, decrease a lot in the end of 1941. Soviet pilots liked early TB-7 of 1940 year of production much more than Pe-8 of 1942, by the way.

Tu-4 was also a very good example as it caused the big revolution in the Soviet technology of production of heavy aircraft (what Petlyakov unsuccesfully asked to introduce in 1937(!) - lifting template method of assembly-flow production of heavy aircraft) and in optimal circumspect relations between components suppliers and main factories. It is very well known that Soviet engineers received the order to make the full copy of captured B-29s and start their production as soon as possible (as the dangerous joke for that time they also completely copied broken personal radio, forgotten by US crewmember inside the cabin of B-29, and made it also the same broken :lol: ). That was made in order to start the production immediately and not wait until Tupolev developed and tested his own strategical four-engine bomber “64” (1945). Soviet engineers insisted, nevertheless, to install some newest and better native engine systems as well as all airframe strength standards of B-29 were improved according to native standards. On the other hand, B-29 had an excellent equipment and its copying as well as copying of some of another details (for example, electric motors, types of bearing parts, cabin glass composition, etc.) caused the great improvement of corresponding Soviet technologies and, especially, in fast and accurate relations between the large amount of components suppliers and aircraft factories. Tu-4 was produced in 1947-1952 and was used by Soviet aviation till the mid1950s as the bomber (by the way, USA used B-29 till 1954 also).
Tu-4 as the atom bomb carrier: http://militera.lib.ru/h/kulikov_sm/047.jpg

Tu-80 (1949) – improved Tu-4: http://legion.wplus.net/guide/air/b/tu4-6.jpg
Tu-85 (as the answer on Convair B-36) – the world’s best (not my opinion :wink: ) and almost theoretically perfect (flight and engine specifications) heavy bomber with conventional engines, the first real successful transcontinental bomber. It exceeded Tu-4 and Tu-80 a lot in weight, dimensions and flying range (max. flying weight 76000-107292 kg, 4x4300 hp engines VD-4K, 12200 km with 5 t of bombs, 638 km/h at 10 km, 10x23mm guns + 20 t of bombs, 12-16 men crew). But its serial production was rejected as the year was 1951, and the new period started – the period of jet strategical bombers and supersonic bombers very soon.
http://www.aviacia.ru/bomber/tu/tu85_1.jpg

PS1. One interesting Soviet bomber Il-22 (not heavy, but 4-engine jet front bomber, the year was 1947) - http://www.free-time.ru/military/aviati ... il22_b.jpg

PS2. Some another quotes from my last post to increase the objectivity :) .
Pe-8 No. 42911 was used as carrier for rocket aircraft "5" (cruise speed 1200 km/h) by Bisnovat in 1948-1949 -
Bisnovat's "5" introduced a world's speed record in 1948, by the way. But Soviets didn't register it.
Soviet designer Myasishchev (he developed an excellent jet heavy bombers later, some experimental super-heavy ultrasonic aircraft of his design office had unbelievable flight specifications in 1950s-1960s - my note, BP) adviced to use native engines ASh-72 and guns B-20 instead of original US for the new Tu-4

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#128

Post by BIGpanzer » 29 Dec 2006, 21:01

Interesting photos from
http://www.archive.gov.tatarstan.ru/_go ... vg%20copy1
about air factory No. 22 in Kazan which produced TB-7/Pe-8, and later - Tu-4.

The first Pe-8 with M-82 engines (factory photo, 1942)
Image

Engine assembly for Pe-8 bombers, engine factory No. 16, 1942
Image

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#129

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Dec 2006, 23:47

BIGpanzer wrote:I have two questions - did Germans asked Finns to give them that heavily damaged TB-7 for detailed investigation?
AFAIK no. Parts of the wreck were transported to the Finnish airfield at Utti, and investigated there.
BP wrote:As I've already mentioned that upper turret gunner sergeant M. Krysin also survived (and, probably, he was not captured by Finns but reached Soviet positions).
Of the crew of 11, six died (at the crash) and five were captured.
Juha Tompuri wrote:I have heard and read from it, just can't remember from where.
IIRC the Soviet/Rusian relatives of the crew have visited the monument (raised by political left wing Finns ???) several times.
Lapinjärven Veteraanikirja (Book of Veterans of War of Lapinjärvi) mentions the following:
On May 5th 1985 the memorial plate (at the rock were the plane hit when force landing) of the fallen TB-7 crew was exposed. The memorial plate was raised and the event of exposing it was organised by local (left-wing organisation of) Finnish Communist Party (SKP:n vähemmistösiiven Uudenmaan osasto). Soviet, DDR, and Bulgarian embassies had send representatives to honour the event.
Member of Soviet veterancommittee German Stepan made a speech, whis is mentioned to have been an unpolitical and pragmatic.
Two years later the widows and relatives of the crew members made a honouring visit to the memorial. The event was very warm-hearted and emotional. The delegation also paid a visit and laid flowers to the Lapinjärvi heroes cemetery.
At that Finnish cemetery the widow of an officer, Rozina Gainedtiova (widow of the flight engineer A. Gaiputdinov you mentioned?), made a speech where she for instance said: "Let us wish that we never would be a war between us"
Every summer Soviet delegaions visit the memorial.

Regards, Juha

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#130

Post by Harri » 30 Dec 2006, 00:39

BIGpanzer wrote:You should be much more objective and distinguish aircraft/engine design engineering (the world’s best were Soviets in 1930s and in 1950s-1970s at least, do you know also that many famous US aircraft of 1940s-1960s were developed by expatriate Russian (fortunately, not Soviet) engineers) and aircraft production/technology culture (Soviet was very average during 1941-1943,especially, because of many obvious reasons).
A rather "big" claim knowing that most Soviet aviation engine designs were licence made or more or less direct copies of various western designs. At least any Finnish experiences don't support this claim. Soviet made stuff was basically always technically inferior to the contemporary (= original) Western stuff although some, for example power figures would have been better in the "improved" Soviet product.
BIGpanzer wrote:The next great and even fantastic step of Soviet aircraft (and space) industry for the bleeding after the horrible war country started in the beginning of 1950s, when USSR became the leader again.
After the war that "fantastic step" was possible because of the war-time Western help (new engines, materials etc.) and capturing lots of German technology, research results and engineers. Without doubt also West gained of these.

Soviets were masters of copying, stealing and re-developing civilian and military technology from other countries and that explains their "finest achievements" in the 1920's, 1930's and also later: it is always much more easier to construct a copy from a tested "thing" than invent and design it from the beginning which may have taken years work.

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#131

Post by BIGpanzer » 30 Dec 2006, 00:58

Good day, Juha!
Thanks for the excellent info! It is very interesting!

I just have some thoughts and notes:

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Of the crew of 11, six died (at the crash) and five were captured
Yes, and we don't know the name of only one member of the crew - the wright "undercarriage" gunner.....But one fact is quite interesting - several Russian sources (including pilot's memoires) mentioned the exact names of six died crewmembers and only the name of one survived person - upper turret gunner sergeant Mikhail Krysin. As all pilots who wrote the memoires knew for sure that crew of TB-7 consisted of 11-12 men, the reason that they couldn't mention the other names during the Soviet period of history seems to be quite obvious - other crewmembers were captured by Finns and they were forgotten as "enemies of nation" and "traitors" (the memoires were written in 1960s-1970s, not in more democratic 1980s). So the fate of M. Krysin should be not so simple, as me seems - may be he wasn't captured (but I believe to your info) or, probably, he could escape from prison later, I don't know......
Juha Tompuri wrote:
On May 5th 1985 the memorial plate (at the rock were the plane hit when force landing)...
That TB-7 had no oil for engines already as oil system was damaged by German AA fire during the raid over Berlin, so the 1st pilot Panfilov tried to land the plane. As Panfilov was one of the most experienced pilots (I've mentioned, that he flew 1.000.000 km in 1930s yet as civil pilot), the reason of such catastrophic crash could be that unlucky rock.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
At that Finnish cemetery the widow of an officer, Rozina Gainedtiova (widow of the flight engineer A. Gaiputdinov you mentioned?), made a speech where she for instance said: "Let us wish that we never would be a war between us"
The correct full name of that flight engineer was Aglyam Gainutdinov (Gainedtiov was your misprint, Gaiputdinov was a mistake in one of my sources), he was a Tartar by nationality.

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#132

Post by BIGpanzer » 30 Dec 2006, 02:45

Hi, Harri!
I like to read your posts about aviation and know that you are quite knowledgable guy in this topic, but let me correct your post to some degree as I am also very fond of world's aviation of 1920s-1950s (especially taking into consideration that many of my relatives were and are aircraft engineers :wink: ). But you must much more objective and at least mention Soviet forward-looking developments of the described period also (see below).
Harri wrote:
A rather "big" claim knowing that most Soviet aviation engine designs were licence made or more or less direct copies of various western designs. At least any Finnish experiences don't support this claim. Soviet made stuff was basically always technically inferior to the contemporary (= original) Western stuff although some, for example power figures would have been better in the "improved" Soviet product.
Yes, this is quite correct if we are talking about serial engines of 1920s-early1930s (let me not to mention all exact models but the majority of well-known Soviet aircraft engines of that period were licenced copies of good and easy to produce foreign engines - this is well known fact, and Soviets bought the license to produce such engines just to save their time during the Soviet industrial revolution several years after destructive civil war). As for Soviet improvements - you can forgot about quotes as they were adapted for native technological lines and should be not very expensive in production. Power figures were also improved on quite many Soviet models if you compare them with original engine (of course, foreign companies also improved them) , but that was not the first priority for Soviets at first. But you should remember the original (and very often - forward-looking, quite many remained as prototypes only, nevertheless) engines of Mikulin, Lyulka (original rocket and jet engines, the development started in the mid1930s), Kuznetsov, Shvetsov and Klimov. Quite many of them produced in large series in 1930s-1950s and had very good specifications and original interesting systems, compatible and sometimes exceed the foreign analogues. Today I have no time, but I will post the examples if you want (this, of course, doesn't mean that many excellent in reality US, German and British engines were bad, but this illustrates that several well-known and experienced engine engineering schools existed in the world, including USSR without any doubt; Finnish embryo aircraft industry was very far away from the mention in this list, sorry, dear Harri :wink: As I would like to spend a lot of my free time in February to Finnish army of 1920s-30s - don't be angry :lol:, I need your help).
Harri wrote:
After the war that "fantastic step" was possible because of the war-time Western help (new engines, materials etc.) and capturing lots of German technology, research results and engineers. Without doubt also West gained of these.
Also correct, but partially. The fantastic step took place in reality without quotes - that was almost impossible for destroyed country in 1940s, to establish modern native jet aviation of all kinds. Western allied help for aircraft/engine engineering was relatively significant during WWII but far away to consider it as very important, Soviet design offices also made a huge amount of development and research and also informed US and UK about their results. As for Germans - yes, this is one of my favourite subject (still no time to start posting it here), they made a really fantastic step forward during the war and all allied countries used their projects and results many years after WWII ended. USA could take the best German specialists and the large amount of them, USSR could take the specialists of "2nd level of knowledge" mainly. They really could perform a lot of interesting investigations in USSR, but this is not decrease the contribution of famous Soviet engineers and designers into the development of new weapons and jet aviation (many research work performed independently and in parallel, also there were quite few Soviet desigh offices with German specialists, I read quite many literature about this).
Soviets were masters of copying, stealing and re-developing civilian and military technology from other countries and that explains their "finest achievements" in the 1920's, 1930's and also later
Partially correct (not only for aircraft engines, also for many tanks of 1920s-beg1930s, cars of 1920s-1950s, etc.), but with very serious notes - that was very important for 1920s-early1930s during the industrial revolution (and not full copy, but quite often with native technological/specification improvements and/or serious modifications). As you mentioned and which is obvious – during the very strict time limits it is better to buy a license for good and already tested engine than to develop a completely new native during 1-3 years. But the finest achievements were without quotes as you try to believe and despite the importance of license purchases in the end of 1920s-beg.1930s (and close collaboration with German companies) Soviet original developments of 1930s played a huge role in Soviet and world aviation. If we mention world-famous aircraft designers as Tupolev, Ilyushin or Polikarpov and engine designers as Mikulin or Shvetsov – this is obvious. But much more interesting is to read about the aircraft constructions of less known Soviet designers such as Bisnovat, Bartini, Florov, Yatsenko, Gribovsky, Cheranovsky, Levkov (obviously, you don’t like to mention them if you know these names even). Of course, their aircraft (a lot of extremely forward-looking design ideas and schemes) of 1930s remained experimental, but many of such schemes were develop by western countries much later, mainly after WWII (some ideas of the designers, mentioned above, were stolen also)

Regards, BP

PS. Lets we both try to stay in topic - heavy and long-range bombers. If you want serious and as far as possible correct discussion - I can post the short but detailed info how Soviets started the development and production of their first heavy bombers and engines for them (I mean USSR, not Imperial Russia, of course - as the first serial heavy bomber was "Ilya Muromets" by Sikorsky, 1914-1918) and their collaboration (purchase, licensing... ) with German and US firms. If you believe that you know everything about this (I guess that not, of course), I don't like to waste my free time on to post the info about this :|
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 30 Dec 2006, 02:56, edited 1 time in total.

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#133

Post by Mark V » 30 Dec 2006, 02:55

Hi there again.
BIGpanzer wrote: You should be much more objective and distinguish aircraft/engine design engineering (the world’s best were Soviets in 1930s and in 1950s-1970s at least, do you know also that many famous US aircraft of 1940s-1960s were developed by expatriate Russian (fortunately, not Soviet) engineers) and aircraft production/technology culture


I don't understant the way you again and again repeat that ac design engineering somehow separated from production engineering.

The first is nothing without the second. Especially to Americans (little less so with Europeans) the designs ability to be manufactured economically, effeciently, and with semi-skilled workforce was an fundamental part of design process itself.

What US aircraft industry could had produced with your attitude: "lets make some nice prototypes with impressive specs, nevermind that it could not be produced by our industry" ??

BIGpanzer wrote:B-29 was the most complicated US aircraft



B-29 was the most complicated ac anywhere on time of design.
BIGpanzer wrote:into mm, make the full copies of all B-29 details including the smallest ones (screws, wires), improved them as much as possible

BIGpanzer wrote:Even the sorts ant types of metals should be identical with American despite the fact that Soviet industry produced differ types of native metals and alloys of good quality - that caused the establishing of additional metallurgy industry and waste of money in this particular case.



You are on contradiction with yourself here.

Tu-4 was an clear sign of Soviet leaderships misstrust to their own designers, though reverse engineering of B-29 from complete ac was an demanding task in itself.

And yes, Soviets did manage to turn imperial measurements to metric, which also is difficult, but they had a lots of experience on that.

To my knowledge, Soviet engineers did not wan't to went to that degree on copying - they had their pride after all.

In the end, they copied averything they could produce to the minutest detail. And what they could not produce, they changed them with parts designed domestically.

BIGpanzer wrote:Tu-85 (as the answer on Convair B-36) – the world’s best (not my opinion :wink: ) and almost theoretically perfect (flight and engine specifications) heavy bomber with conventional engines, the first real successful transcontinental bomber.


Huh. No short words here.

Could you please define:
"almost theoretically perfect heavy bomber with conventional engines"
"first real successful transcontinental bomber"

??

BIGpanzer wrote:Bisnovat's "5" introduced a world's speed record in 1948, by the way.


Sorry. It did not. Firstly because of your next sentance:
BIGpanzer wrote:But Soviets didn't register it.



Regards, Mark V

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#134

Post by Mark V » 30 Dec 2006, 03:07

BIGpanzer wrote: Finnish embryo aircraft industry was very far away from the mention in this list, sorry, dear Harri :wink:
Hi.

You have some interesting knowledge, and sometimes these discussions with you start promising. But then you pull-out something like that ?!?

What purpose that line of text served ?? How did it contribute to this discussion ??


Regards, Mark V

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#135

Post by BIGpanzer » 30 Dec 2006, 04:03

Hello, Mark V!
This time it seems more easy to explain and answer on your questions :)
I don't understant the way you again and again repeat that ac design engineering somehow separated from production engineering.
The first is nothing without the second. Especially to Americans (little less so with Europeans) the designs ability to be manufactured economically, effeciently, and with semi-skilled workforce was an fundamental part of design process itself.
What US aircraft industry could had produced with your attitude: "lets make some nice prototypes with impressive specs, nevermind that it could not be produced by our industry" ??
I don't repeat this and this seems to be misunderstanding. For sure the aircraft design engineering should be in full accordance with production process/technology culture (production engineering is not very correct term, by the way). Of course, the case of experimental aircraft (1-3 copies) is very differ. And this is the big (and the main) problem for Soviet industry - world-famous Soviet designers developed excellent fighters and bombers (many of prototypes if not almost all got world's records in 1930s) but their quality and specifications decreased a lot during serial production because of many stupid and mysterious reasons (there is an excellent huge article on Russian about this but I have no time to read it carefully) - for example, NKVD unexpectedly ordered to stop the production of new engines designed especially for those aircraft, also the arrests of designers or factories chief engineers, chaos reforms in industry in the end of 1930s - a lot of strange and impossible for western factories reasons caused the very big differences between prototypes and serial aircraft. Also the technological chain of Soviet industry caused a lot of annoying problems - aircraft factory assembled aircraft but tyres or navigation equipment suppliers delayed delivery of their products (reasons - a huge amount: from arrest of the general manager to the order to begin produce another equipment...) One of the good (but not the best) example is the 2nd prototype of TB-7 (participated in many bombing raids and survived the war), which was much better and reliable than other heavy bombers of 45th long-range air division.
Tu-4 improved the situation a lot to some degree as more than 600 Soviet enterprises should coordinate their efforts very effective to produce the complicated and new bomber in series as soon as possible.
B-29 was the most complicated ac anywhere on time of design.
As for me - I don't understand why you quoted this. Of course, I know about this fact, but I mentioned that B-29 was the most complicated US aircraft (this is a full truth) because we were talking about US bombers.

into mm, make the full copies of all B-29 details including the smallest ones (screws, wires), improved them as much as possible

Even the sorts ant types of metals should be identical with American despite the fact that Soviet industry produced differ types of native metals and alloys of good quality - that caused the establishing of additional metallurgy industry and waste of money in this particular case.

You are on contradiction with yourself here
This are translation problems. I meant that Soviet engineers received the order to make the full copy of B-29 including the smallest detailes and (which was more important and complicated) identical sorts of glass, metal, rubber and polymeric materials (Soviet industry produced another sorts or didn't produce some of them at all). Many Soviet design offices and factories tried to ask about possible improvements or using native materials for production, but they received the messages from the government: "we don't need another or better plane, please, make the same...". Only native newest engine systems and guns were installed instead of original US at first. The development of Tupolev's new heavy bomber was stopped to save the time according to the same order, Soviets needed in atom bomb carrier as soon as possible. And as I've already mentioned, the main importance of Tu-4 was development of such enterprises which were responsible for the production of complicated and modern equipment (electric motors, navigation and radio equipment, cabin glass, etc.), B-29 itself (the construction of fuselage, wings, engines) didn't impress the Soviet aircraft designers too much (and many strength standards of US bombers were improved (~1.5 times) according to Soviet standards), which also caused great technological problems to avoid the increasing of aircraft weight .
The production of Tu-4 (which had near 70 or more [I don't remember at the moment, will check in the morning] production series with differ improvements, including later Soviet-developed navigation/radar/radio equipment, not US copies) also increased a lot the quality of Soviet serial equipment finally, and (which was the most important thing) improved to very differ level the relationships between suppliers from all over the country.

You should also take into consideration that Soviet engineers didn't have any blueprints of B-29 at first, only 5 damaged bombers.
In the end, they copied averything they could produce to the minutest detail. And what they could not produce, they changed them with parts designed domestically
.
Almost all were copied and produced from the identical materials (there were exceptions, nevertheless), and that caused the big improvement and even foundations of new industries in postWWII USSR.
Could you please define:
"almost theoretically perfect heavy bomber with conventional engines"
"first real successful transcontinental bomber"
Sorry for the long words :wink: The first sentence means that Tu-85 had aerodynamics and specifications quite closely to theoretical possible for propeller (not jet) heavy bomber of such weight - this is not my opinion (to say the truth, I never mind about this :wink: ) but the opinion of aircraft engineers. The specifications of its engines were also very high for conventional (not jet) engines.
The second sentence means flying range >12000 km with >5 t of bombs for serial bomber (not prototype or record plane). The term "transcontinental bomber" was introduced during the period of Cold War the same as "intercontinental ballistic missile".
Bisnovat's "5" introduced a world's speed record in 1948, by the way.
Sorry. It did not. Firstly because of your next sentance:
But Soviets didn't register it.
In my opinion you just twiddled here. I wanted to illustrate that Soviets developed quite interesting and promising rocket/jet constructions just after WWII (during WWII also) and this is a good example. As for official speed record - that was not (unregistered because of political reasons), as for speed record in fact - that took place, but this not of first importance here (see my aim three lines above). By the way - that was registered Soviet speed record (achieved M >1.1 during the another flight).
You have some interesting knowledge, and sometimes these discussions with you start promising.

Thanks a lot, the same is truth about you. Let me wish to start our discussions promising more often (if you and Harri start to pay more attention not only to correct disadvantages but to correct advantages and positive things also, or at least to more deep analysis of situation). There are three ways for such discussions - mention only mistakes or disadvantages (and "forget" about many advantages or positive things in history), mention only heroic examples and positive things (and "forget" about contrasts) and tried to analyze disadvantages (and better - the reasons of them) as well as advantages....................Personal preferences, of course, play a significant role sometimes but they don't help to analyze the situation for sure. Possible opinions of Russian guys will be quite interesting to read also, as for me, I tried to discuss some info I am interested in Russian WWII forums (there are quite many forums with excellent info, at least dozen or more), but this is quite hard for me and I don't read even 5% of Russian sources as those guys did.
Finnish embryo aircraft industry was very far away from the mention in this list, sorry, dear Harri
What purpose that line of text served ?? How did it contribute to this discussion ??
Here I twiddled a little bit, and of course this adds almost no contribution to our discussion :wink: The reason of posting this is mentioned above (+ night time :lol: ). Seriously, many countries used license copying of engines and even aircraft (Finland, for example) during the attempts to establish or improve their own aircraft industry, and that was normal. Another thing - that some countries had also their own old engineering traditions and experienced design offices in addition.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 30 Dec 2006, 05:37, edited 3 times in total.

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