Sure, but there were several moments in history when the relations between Sweden and Finland (Finnish lands) were very complicated and/or bad.Mark V wrote:
And there is real negative feelings between nationalities in some places. Not between Finns or Swedes for sure.
BIGpanzer wrote:Hi, Juha!You just didn't analyze so huge amount of sources about TB-7 as I didJuha wrote: By so far I haven't seen any sources to back up your posts.
http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?n ... page=pe8_n ?BP wrote: you even couldn't imagine how hard was to find exact serial numbers for all 93 bombers and posted it here :roll: ).
According to Er-2 in the Great Patriotic WarBP wrote:1. As for the damage of TB-7 of Panfilov by German AA artillery and damage of TB-7 of Tyagunin by Soviet AA artillery on the way back - all DETAILED source about that raid (there are a lot in Internet, at least) mention this. You can find also several sources that mention the damage of Panfilov's TB-7 from Soviet and Finnish AA artillery, but this are, very probably (especially, after comparison of all sources I know), not truth. As for damage of Tyagunin's bomber by Soviet AA fire - I am not sure for 100% at the moment that this happened on the way back and Tyagunin made emergency landing on Soviet territory [indeed a lot of source give such info] as several sources mention also that his bomber was knocked down by friendly AA fire on the way to Berlin, 5 men were killed and others bailed out......
The heavy machine of major Tjagunin from 432.BAP was shot down by the flak above a mouth of Lug in area Vysu, only the part of his crew has had time to leave the burning bomber.
emphasis on mine http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopi ... sc&start=0From bombers flying to Berlin, message was received that fighters I-16 and I-153 are attacking them and that their own anti-aircraft artillery is shooting at them.
Who told Panfilov died over Germany?BP wrote:I suppose that senior lieutenant Panfilov was killed during crash on Finnish territory, if he was killed by AA fire over Germany it was very hard to control bomber during the long flight to Finland (two pilots sat one after another in TB-7's cabin). But both suppositions is almost impossible to prove as you can understandJuha wrote: Perhaps not just the plane got hits from the AAA ?
No, unfortunately I don't have them.BP wrote:Do you have these POW interrogation reports?Juha wrote: The crew was captured the same day, AFAIK at Lapinjärvi, and I haven't read of any resistance from the crew side when taken to POW.
BTW, my sources are based on the POW interrogation reports and eye-witness statements...where are your sources based on?
sigh....BP wrote:My sources
I don't know neither the exact bale-out place nor the exact place of capture, but if you can read maps, the one I posted yesterday as an answer to a similar question of yours, it will give you some sort of an idea of the distance.BP wrote:just mention the fact that survived crewmembers tried to reach Soviet positions and were captured near the Soviet frontline by Finns, which is, of course, is not very sufficient proof. By the way what was the exact distance between crash site and front line in August 1941? You mentioned that bailed 2nd pilot could run several tens(?) of kilometres along the unknown enemy territory before he was captured (so he was captured in several days after crash, right?).
I think it's OK to cook up tales in order to save one's neck, but when they end up into a book dealing with history... they then turn up to sort of art, and more proper place for those stories than a book of serious history writing would be this: http://www.muzeumkozlowka.lublin.pl/a-7.htmBP wrote: The most interesting source from this point of view is the memoires of well-known test-pilot Stefanovsky, who described the heroic combat between Soviet crewmembers and Finnish soldiers in details, based on his talk with survived gunner from that TB-7 after the war [Stefanovsky also described that August raid against Berlin, based on his personal talks with returned pilots, captain Tyagunin, for example, whose bomber was knocked down by Soviet AA artillery by mistake]. So this is also direct eye-witness statement, as you can understandOf course, it seems to be possible that Soviet gunner tried to describe that catastrophe in such details which could free him from attention of NKVD to some degree (after Finnish POW camp he was "the enemy of nation" according to Stalin's order)
See above.BP wrote:but it seems also very possible that Finnish eyewitnesses also tried not to mention the details of strong combat between survived Soviet crewmembers and battalion of Finns if that combat really took place.
There are (most probably) still people alive here who were there then.In my opinion - nobody knows what happened in Lapinjärvi on 11 August, 1941 exactly at the moment.
According to Er-2 in the Great Patriotic WarBP wrote:Yes - there are three, one is the memoires of one of TB-7 pilot. If you believe that I cited them correctly, they mention that the first bomber began take-off at 20.52, one of the last bombers (I need to check which one, but not Panfilov's for sure) began take-off at 21.30. Panfilov's TB-7 took-off as the last one.Juha wrote: Do you have any sources to back up the
-timetable
-route lenght
-fuel amount
http://www.airwarfareforum.com.....mp;start=0At 15.00 the combat order has been received to take off on a mission to Berlin... The Order of flight has been established as following. As first flight of ТB-7 takes off, behind it at 20.30 flight of Еr-2 under a command of captain Stepanov, behind them at 20.45 flight of ТB-7, at 21.00 – flight of Еr-2 under command of captain Brusnitsyn, behind them the following flight of ТB-7. After them a pair of Еr-2 under a command of second lieutenant Molodcheg takes off... "
That evening events were from the start not at all developing as the commander of the VVS the general-lieutenant of aviation Zhigarev planned. At take-off ТB-7 of major K.P.Egorov has suffered accident when both right engines have given up at once. Еr-2 of second lieutenant A.I.Molodcheg, having run out of entire earthen strip, has failed to come off the ground, and had broken his undercarriage in the ditch and only by miracle was not blown up by his own bombs.
source?BP wrote:Route length was approximately 2700 km
?BP wrote:bombers had fuel for 8 hoursof flight (but one bomber made 10 hours flight because of engines damage).
Thanks for that.BP wrote:Here the historical document - telegram from 12 August 1941 of Air Force commander (he was also the Deputy Defense People's Commissar) lieutenant-general P.F. Zhigarev to Air Force HQ:"... Ñ 21.00 äî 22.00 [timetable - when the raid began, BP] 10 àâãóñòà íà âûïîëíåíèå çàäàíèÿ âûëåòåëè 7 ÒÁ-7 è 3 Åð-2 [7 TB-7 and 3 Yer-2 - BP]. Ïî ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûì äàííûì, ïî öåëè ðàáîòàëè 2 ÒÁ-7 è 2 Åð-2 [2 TB-7 and 2 Yer-2 bombed target (Berlin) according to preliminary data - BP. Note: 5 TB-7 bombed German territory, including Berlin - BP]. Îäèí ÒÁ-7 ñáðîñèë áîìáû äî ïîäõîäà ê öåëè, òàê êàê ñäàë ìîòîð. Âåðíóëèñü è ñåëè â Ïóøêèíå òîëüêî 1 ÒÁ-7 è 1 Åð-2 [1 TB-7 and 1 Yer-2 landed on Pushkino, home airfield - BP]... Î Âîäîïüÿíîâå è Ïàíôèëîâå äàííûõ íåò [no info about Vodopianov and Panfilov yet - BP]... Óñòàíîâèòü, ïî÷åìó èìåëî ìåñòî 3 ñëó÷àÿ îòêàçà ïðàâîé ãðóïïû ìîòîðîâ, ïîêà íå óäàëîñü [no possibility to find the reason of 3 cases of failure of right engines - BP]. Êîìäèâ è øòàá äèâèçèè ðàáîòàþò ïëîõî [divisional commander and divisional HQ worked bad - BP], ñ òàêèì êîìàíäîâàíèåì äèâèçèè è øòàáîì òðóäíî îðãàíèçîâàòü ÷òî-òî ñåðüåçíîå, òàê êàê ñëó÷àéíî íàáðàííûå ëþäè äåéñòâóþò âðàçáðîä è â îäèíî÷êó. Ïðîøó ðàçðåøåíèÿ èñïðàâíûå ÒÁ-7 è Åð-2 ïåðåáðîñèòü îáðàòíî â Êàçàíü [Let me serviceable TB-7 and Yer-2 returned back to Kazan - BP]. Íàçíà÷èòü êîìäèâîì Ãîëîâàíîâà [Let me appoint Golovanov as divisional commander - BP]. Íàçíà÷èòü äðóãîãî íà÷àëüíèêà øòàáà...[Let me appoint another chief of divisional staff]"
Sorry, but I don't have ay photos.BP wrote:PS. Do you have the modern photo of the memorial of Soviet crewmembers (with their names) of TB-7 No. 42026 near the crash site? This will be helpful in some details for our investigation.
How do you know that the "guy" at the photo is a " gunner of low sergeant rank"?BIGpanzer wrote:Yes, good photo. Just take into consideration that the guy to the right was an officer (naval aviation), not gunner of low sergeant rank.
here are the sources from the veterans book (also the writings of the ca. 30 veterans in the book) and the two pages (first and last page of the sources section) from the history book (or booklet, as your term to these is)BP wrote:. it will be very interesting to read the originals of your sources
Nope.BP wrote:(Moscow time, 2 hours differ from Finnish?)
Sure they must have had something also under them.BP wrote:Baltic Sea aviation, participated in the much more successful and carefully planned raid against Berlin several days earlier (5 August 1941), wore warm winter coveralls as the flight took place on high-altitude mainly (~6-7 km with the temperature -30-35). Very probably, this is true also for TB-7 pilots, and if so - that guy on photo was not a Soviet...........
That is one possibility.Harri wrote:I still think the man in the dark coloured suit is a local fireman.
And about what are you wondering? I don't understand. That bomber of lieutenant V. Bidny (Vidny?) had problems with two left engines (one unexpectedly caught fire in 40 min after take-off, and Bidny ordered to stop it; the second diesel caught fire at 6000 m altitude near Danzig, it was also stopped), but the bomber tried to reach Berlin on two right engines, ran out of altitude (dropped bombs over German territory [370 km from Berlin according to one sources, over Berlin according to another] from less than 2000m altitude). On the way back the cruise speed was quite low (165 km/h) instead of >300 km/h and the bomber reached airfield (not Pushkino, but Obukhovo) in 10 hours instead of planned 8 on last drops of fuel (do you understand now that only two engines worked and the speed was low?).Juha wrote:
BP íàïèñà:
bombers had fuel for 8 hours of flight (but one bomber made 10 hours flight because of engines damage).
?
emphasis on mine
) }In the case that the guy on your photo is Soviet (I agree with Harri that this is Finnish fireman, nevertheless) - it could be the gunner (which were sergeants usually) as only gunners (three) survived. Yes, I remember now, that one of the gunners was second lieutenant, the lowest officer rank in Soviet Army. Or do you think this is the bailed co-pilot Arkhipov, which was delivered to the crash site after he was captured [in that case the photo was made not in the same day with crash, probably] and he found somewhere in his pockets his "ground" field cap (which should be of blue colour for officers, I need to note)? In that case that guy indeed looks like quiet traitorJuha wrote:
How do you know that the "guy" at the photo is a " gunner of low sergeant rank"?
Actually I don't agree with you about the raid route: As TB-7 of Tyagunin was shot (down) at bay of Luga and Panfilov got hits at bout the same area and Saremaa-Hiiumaa archipelago, the more realistic route was about Pushkino - Tallinn - Saaremaa-Hiiumaa - Danzig - Stettinn - Berlin (and back). Sources: the same as at my earlier posts.BIGpanzer wrote:Hi, Juha!
No time to discuss all things, just this one today:
And about what are you wondering? I don't understand. That bomber of lieutenant V. Bidny had problems with two left engines (one unexpectedly caught fire in 40 min after take-off, and Bidny ordered to stop it; the second diesel caught fire at 6000 m altitude near Danzig, it was also stopped), but the bomber tried to reach Berlin on two right engines, ran out of altitude (dropped bombs from 2000 m or less). On the way back the cruise speed was quite low (165 km/h) instead of >300 km/h and the bomber reached airfield in 10 hours instead of planned 8 on last drops of fuel (do you understand now that only two engines worked and the speed was low?).Juha wrote: BP íàïèñà:
bombers had fuel for 8 hours of flight (but one bomber made 10 hours flight because of engines damage).
?
emphasis on mine
Source - for example, this one: http://www.testpilot.ru/review/300x/test.htm
By the way, the same source mention ~2700 km as the length of planned route Pushkino-Danzig-Stettin-Berlin (as the answer on your second question about route and source), but the number 2700 km is mentioned by several sources, I just don't have time to find them again. The alternate target was Königsberg. The taken amount of fuel for 8 hours of flight only (because of 4 t of bombs) is in accordance with this - 2700 : 8 = 337.5 km/h. In principle, TB-7 with M-40 diesels had the range 5460 km.
that of course is an average cruise speed - on the way to Berlin the plane was heavier and flew slower and at the return trip it was lighter, and should fly faster (actually I don't agree with the cruise speed you gave either). With three engines running and heavy loaded it's quite probable that the plane could not keep up not even close that speed you mentioned (if it ever continued with/without bombs). The slower the plane flew, the more time it would have taken to reach it's target.BP wrote:2700 : 8 = 337.5 km/h
Most probably the Danzig - Berlin leg (with claimed bombs) went quite slow (wonder what was the stalling speed of TB-7?).BP wrote:On the way back the cruise speed was quite low (165 km/h)
Yes, you have made it very clear.BP wrote: I don't know what happened there in reality.
No, I don't know all, specially I don't know why the Soviet side has invented such tales and how they have ended up at books of history.BP wrote:And you don't know, too, dear Juha.
Why to "invent the wheel again"?BP wrote:It will be interesting to ask old natives in this case indeed
Co-pilot + 4 others survived.BP wrote:In the case that the guy on your photo is Soviet (I agree with Harri that this is Finnish fireman, nevertheless) - it could be the gunner (which were sergeants usually) as only gunners (three) survived.
None.Juha wrote:
http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin.....page=pe8_n ?
)......Quite good source, I know it. May be, I will post info about Er-2 here also.Juha wrote:
According to Er-2 in the Great Patriotic War
By Alexander Medved & Dimitriy Hazanov:
) about the participation of Er-2 in that raid (authors - Medved, Khazanov, you've mentioned) - http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/soviet/er2/er2.html. It was mentioned that Tyagunin's bomber was knocked down by Soviet AA artillery near the Lug in area Vysu on the way to Berlin :roll:You forget to mention that original text mentioned a very strange red colour (not camouflage) of I-153 (only one I-153 attacked the bombers?) :roll:Juha wrote:
Öèòàò:
From bombers flying to Berlin, message was received that fighters I-16 and I-153 are attacking them and that their own anti-aircraft artillery is shooting at them.
emphasis on mine http://www.airwarfareforum.com.....mp;start=0
So your sources based on POW interrogation reports, but it is impossible to see the original POW reports...This is bad, otherwise it will be interesting to see how many crewmembers were capured (5 if to believe to the sources about capture of them during the way to Soviet positions or 1 if to believe to the sources about combat between them and Finnish soldiers) :roll:Juha wrote:
BP- Do you have these POW interrogation reports?
No, unfortunately I don't have them.
sigh.....Juha wrote:
My sources
Stupid post from you in my opinion, sorry. At first because we don't know the truth at the moment for sure (I also don't believe for 100% that such combat took place, but if so - for sure Finnish propaganda [not worser than Soviet during WWIIJuha wrote:
I think it's OK to cook up tales in order to save one's neck, but when they end up into a book dealing with history... they then turn up to sort of art, and more proper place for those stories than a book of serious history writing would be this: http://www.muzeumkozlowka.lublin.pl/a-7.htm
] didn't want to mention it). Secondly - this book of test-pilot Stefanovsky "300 unknown" was quite famous among aircraft historians and AFAIK it was translated on English, it was written sometimes in a very knowledgable style and was about tests of Soviet experimental aircraft/prototypes mainly (the small chapter about that Pe-8 raid was a kind of "memoires" chapter, based on personal communications of author). Third - the link you've mentioned correlates with the serious history very well as I saw the symbols of Soviet period there, nothing more.....[the photos of Nazi symbols or Finnish symbols of WWII correlate with the history also or not, how do you think?]Yes, that was planned combat order as you know....According to memoires - the first TB-7 took-off 20.52, not the last one (Bidny's bomber) - 21.30. Panfilov's bomber was the last one.Juha wrote:
At 15.00 the combat order has been received to take off on a mission to Berlin... The Order of flight has been established as following. As first flight of ÒB-7 takes off, behind it at 20.30 flight of År-2 under a command of captain Stepanov, behind them at 20.45 flight of ÒB-7, at 21.00 – flight of År-2 under command of captain Brusnitsyn, behind them the following flight of ÒB-7. After them a pair of År-2 under a command of second lieutenant Molodcheg takes off... "
Er-2 of second lieutenant A.I. Molodchy [Ìîëîä÷èé] - future two times Hero of USSR, and, probably, one of the most famous pilots of Er-2 during WWII.Juha wrote:
År-2 of second lieutenant A.I.Molodcheg, having run out of entire earthen strip, has failed to come off the ground, and had broken his undercarriage in the ditch and only by miracle was not blown up by his own bombs.
It was prohibited to use any radio equipment during the raid (fixed loop radio compasses also) to avoid interception - may be this was the reason? Several sources mention, that Panfilov's TB-7, probably, made a navigation mistake because of this and made flight to Finland as the reason. In my opinion - this is possible from one side also taking into consideration that landing place in Finland was not very far away from Pushkino airfield (which was possible to reach, probably), but from another - the experienced pilots (especially, Panfilov) could orientate according to stars, maps and other navigation equipment, including usual compasses (also Baltic Sea and coastline were an excellent guides).Juha wrote:
Thanks for that.
Specially the info that no info was received from Panfilov by radio.
That's a pity.Juha wrote:
Sorry, but I don't have ay photos.
Yet.
In that case it is hard to explain how the bomber could crash in Finland 02.10. Should be near 04.00-06.00 at least. May be your source gives the incorrect info? Or lets think how it was possible if Panfilov took-off from Pushkino as the last TB-7 bomber (so between 21.30-22.00) and reached Germany, also the speed of the bomber was quite low because of damage of oil system and two engines stopped later :roll:Juha wrote:
Was and is +1 hours.
Standard field uniform was worn under warm coveralls usually, not summer coveralls.Juha wrote:
Sure they must have had something also under them.
), lets believe to himis the brown clad soldier at the photo a Soviet (crew member)?
Thank's a lot, I still have no time to read it carefully. If this is a veteran's history book - this is a good book; if this is a small local place history info (as I understand from your previous posts) - this is a good bookletJuha wrote:
Hope you enjoy.
By the way, I enjoy (with the few exceptions when I didn't agree) all info from you! Juha wrote:
Actually I don't agree with you about the raid route
the more realistic route was about Pushkino - Tallinn - Saaremaa-Hiiumaa - Danzig - Stettinn - Berlin (and back).
I wrote almost the sameI wrote: Pushkino-Danzig-Stettin-Berlin
As I've mentioned - differ info exists. More probably, that Panfilov's bomber was damaged by German artillery only, but I am not sure, of course - they didn't use radio and didn't return back, almost impossible to find the 100% correct info in this case in my opinion.Juha wrote:
Panfilov got hits at bout the same area and Saremaa-Hiiumaa archipelago
I always think so alsoJuha wrote:
that of course is an average cruise speed - on the way to Berlin the plane was heavier and flew slower and at the return trip it was lighter, and should fly faster
Also take into consideration such important factor as wind! I didn'tyou claim
In this case pilot Bidny claimed that his speed after dropping bombs was 165 km/h, I just cited ). Sure! Great, nice observation at least!Juha wrote:
The slower the plane flew, the more time it would have taken to reach it's target.
Very truthful at least!Juha wrote:
No, I don't know all
That was according to youJuha wrote:
The part of the raid the plane flew with only two engines (Danzig - Stettin - Berlin claimed with bombs ) was according to you ~1350km (2:2700km) + ~400km (Danzig - Berlin) = ~1750km.
According to me 2:2700 km ~ 1350 km is from Pushkino to Berlin (Russian sources that the whole route was ~2700 km if they mentioned the length at all, I cited these ~2700 km), but it will be interesting to see the good map, otherwise we can disprove the sources info that the route was 2700 km, it could be a little bit longer (I just find one mention that the bombers were ready for 3100 km flight, but ready and route are differ, of course).Sorry, I have no info (only max speeds at different altitudes for different used engines).Juha wrote:
(wonder what was the stalling speed of TB-7?).
As I could assure - many Russian sources are not less (at leastJuha wrote:
The books I have used as sources are based on (also) eyewitness reports.
) knowledgable than Finnish, and also based on eyewitness reports and memoires If you believe only to Finnish sources - that was you big problem especially as moderator But if you don't agree with something and don't have any Finnish sources - you began to use Russian sources without any doubts! Am I right, my dear friend? Many Russian and even Soviet historical and technical sources were not less "fairy tales" than Finnish, I was fond of Winter war several years ago and found a huge amount of incorrect [for many reasons] info from the sources of both sides, by the way. Carefull analysis of all sources is of great importance, my dear friend.....Yes, I mentioned 3 gunners just by memory as I had bad Internet connections to see my previous posts for refresh, there were four (upper turret, tail turret and two "undercarriage"). I also thought about German at first, that is why I asked you about possible transportation of destroyed TB-7 to Germany for investigation.Juha wrote:
Co-pilot + 4 others survived.
In theory the "guy" could also be a German.
Regards, BPRegards, Juha
No.BIGpanzer wrote:So your sources based on POW interrogation reports, but it is impossible to see the original POW reports...Juha wrote: BP- Do you have these POW interrogation reports?
No, unfortunately I don't have them.
Of course there were (and still are) Finnish rumours and tales about the WWII, but much much more seldom they end up as facts at serious books of history,BP wrote:Stupid post from you in my opinion, sorry. At first because we don't know the truth at the moment for sure (I also don't believe for 100% that such combat took place, but if so - for sure Finnish propaganda [not worser than Soviet during WWIIJuha wrote: I think it's OK to cook up tales in order to save one's neck, but when they end up into a book dealing with history... they then turn up to sort of art, and more proper place for those stories than a book of serious history writing would be this: http://www.muzeumkozlowka.lublin.pl/a-7.htm
Not only Finnish and German:BP wrote:[the photos of Nazi symbols or Finnish symbols of WWII correlate with the history also or not, how do you think?]
BP wrote:In that case it is hard to explain how the bomber could crash in Finland 02.10. Should be near 04.00-06.00 at least. May be your source gives the incorrect info? Or lets think how it was possible if Panfilov took-off from Pushkino as the last TB-7 bomber (so between 21.30-22.00) and reached Germany, also the speed of the bomber was quite low because of damage of oil system and two engines stopped later :roll:Juha wrote: Was and is +1 hours.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=105On their way to the target the Soviet AAA fired and hit at it over Saaremaa or Hiiumaa.
then the pilot Panfilov ordered to drop the bombs and headed to north in order to get that way home.
When already over Finland (and after escaping Finnish searchlights by diving) the right wing engine nacelle mg gunner reported of oil at the floor of his compartment. The oil was from the engines, and when it was knee deep, the inner right engine stopped. Soon after that the outer right engine jammed.
Then the co-pilot locked the controls to level flight, locked the cabin door and baled out ( he survived the bale-out and managed to flee couple of tens of km before he was caught. When he and the crew survived met at a Finnish prison, one of the crew members hit him to face with fist).
After that the plane crashed to the woods of Rutumi, Lapinjärvi.
You asked about the sources of that book...well somewhere betwen the pages 837 and 857 of that booklet.BP wrote: PS2. I read those three pages from you - the good list of references about preWWII-WWII history, but where is the info about TB-7 to check it
I think so, we should also think do memoires represent serious books of history or not? I think that not exactly as they are based on personal feelings often.Juha wrote:
Of course there were (and still are) Finnish rumours and tales about the WWII, but much much more seldom they end up as facts at serious books of history
Swastika was used even by some Red Army units during the Civil War as the symbol.I called it another way -Juha wrote:
that booklet.
As you call it.
If this is a veteran's history book - this is a good book; if this is a small local place history info (as I understand from your previous posts) - this is a good booklet
Finally something we agree?BIGpanzer wrote:Juha wrote: Actually I don't agree with you about the raid route
the more realistic route was about Pushkino - Tallinn - Saaremaa-Hiiumaa - Danzig - Stettinn - Berlin (and back).I wrote almost the sameI wrote: Pushkino-Danzig-Stettin-Berlin
You just add Tallinn and Saaremaa-Hiiumaa (I didn't do this as I have no exact info about this) - this is more informative in my opinion indeed.
I don't remember that.BP wrote:the case of Pusep's famous flight to USA, when his bomber with AM-35A engines reached sometimes more than 500 km/h on the way back
BP wrote:That was according to youJuha wrote: The part of the raid the plane flew with only two engines (Danzig - Stettin - Berlin claimed with bombs ) was according to you ~1350km (2:2700km) + ~400km (Danzig - Berlin) = ~1750km.
emphasis on mine.BP earlier wrote: V. Bidny had problems with two left engines (one unexpectedly caught fire in 40 min after take-off, and Bidny ordered to stop it; the second diesel caught fire at 6000 m altitude near Danzig, it was also stopped), but the bomber tried to reach Berlin on two right engines, ran out of altitude (dropped bombs from 2000 m or less). On the way back the cruise speed was quite low (165 km/h) instead of >300 km/h and the bomber reached airfield in 10 hours instead of planned 8 on last drops of fuel
Interesting info.BP wrote:(Russian sources that the whole route was ~2700 km if they mentioned the length at all, I cited these ~2700 km), but it will be interesting to see the good map, otherwise we can disprove the sources info that the route was 2700 km, it could be a little bit longer (I just find one mention that the bombers were ready for 3100 km flight, but ready and route are differ, of course).
Well, using my favourite very detailed big navy atlas to be 100% correct, and your route (in which I agree completely) - Pushkino-Tallinn (295 km), Tallinn-Saaremaa (181 km), Saaremaa-Danzig (496 km), Danzig-Stettin/Szczecin (287 km), Stettin-Berlin (127 km) = 1386 km! 1386x2 = 2772.
I agree with the one emphased.BP wrote:Juha wrote: The books I have used as sources are based on (also) eyewitness reports.
As I could assure - many Russian sources are not less (at least
BP wrote: I called it another way -BP wrote: If this is a veteran's history book - this is a good book; if this is a small local place history info (as I understand from your previous posts) - this is a good booklet
BP first wrote:regional historical booklets at least
Thank you very muchJuha wrote:
You asked about the sources of that book...well somewhere betwen the pages 837 and 857 of that booklet
The only problem is to get scans from you to read pages between 837-857 [correct word for the book about history of small locality], I will do this for "fairy tales" next time. Lets continue the discussion of serious info Yes, this is quite good info and should be taken into consideration at least. The take-off time near 22.00 and crash time 02.10 [if to believe the data from you] supported this very well. But we should take into consideration also that a lot of respectful sources mention that Panfilov's TB-7 was damaged by German AA fire and then the bomber headed to Finland, and this is interesting. Two moments are still very unclear - when did senior lieutenant Panfilov die (during the crash or before? Was he wounded by AA fire or not?) and why he ordered to head the bomber to Finland (especially if to believe that the bomber was damaged by Soviet AA artillery on its way to Berlin - it could be more logical just to return back in my opinion or headed to the south trying to reach the home airfield then - it was also possible; if to believe that the bomber was damaged by German AA fire it is also very interesting - was it a navigation mistake [for very experienced pilot as Panfilov it is strange] or what? - it could be better to make flight towards Pushkino and land somewhere than to cross Gulf of Finland for quite unclear reason). Co-pilot could lock controls of flight but Panfilov and even flight engineer could use their own controls [just for the info as this is not very important for discussion]....Dropping bombs near Soviet AA batteries/warships (if to believe this) should be documented by Soviets, but AFAIK there are no such mentions.......Anyway, Juha's version seems to be quite interesting and very possible. I found this night one source also which mentions - "TB-7 of senior lieutenant Panfilov was knocked down by AA artillery of Baltic Sea Navy by mistake, the aircraft crashed in Finland....." - http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/sdo5.htmJuha wrote:
On their way to the target the Soviet AAA fired and hit at it over Saaremaa or Hiiumaa.
then the pilot Panfilov ordered to drop the bombs and headed to north in order to get that way home.
When already over Finland (and after escaping Finnish searchlights by diving) the right wing engine nacelle mg gunner reported of oil at the floor of his compartment. The oil was from the engines, and when it was knee deep, the inner right engine stopped. Soon after that the outer right engine jammed.
Then the co-pilot locked the controls to level flight, locked the cabin door and baled out ( he survived the bale-out and managed to flee couple of tens of km before he was caught. When he and the crew survived met at a Finnish prison, one of the crew members hit him to face with fist).
After that the plane crashed to the woods of Rutumi, Lapinjärvi
Just for the info we were discussing the images of swastika. Juha, could you please, remove that image [it will be better to have the only images about bombers here] but post only the link to it -Juha wrote:
http://forum.axishistory.com/v.....t=swastika
] use "Russian swastika" (usual greeting between them - outcry "Glory for Russia" and Hitler salute) - My calculations proved that the info in memoires about ~2700 km route [both ways] is truth. 3100 km : 8 hours = 387.5 km/h (average speed for the whole route), this is too high for bombers with M-40 diesels, full of bombs. TB-7 with diesels had the lowest speed among all modifications [but very good range - 5460 km, with later diesels ACh-30B even much more - 7800 km {with additional fuel tanks, otherwise - 5600 km} with 2 t of bombs] - maximal speed was only 390-393 km/h at 5700 m altitude. TB-7 with AM-35A engines had maximal speed 443 km/h at 6400 m altitude [range 3600 km], for example.Juha wrote:
Interesting info.
3100km seems a bit optimistic with the fuel to 8 hour flight you mentioned earlier
? How does the route depend on amount of engines? The speed depends on amount on engines. Why did you mention 1750 km [I never mentioned this!]? I still don't understand your logic.....BP earlier wrote:
V. Bidny had problems with two left engines (one unexpectedly caught fire in 40 min after take-off, and Bidny ordered to stop it; the second diesel caught fire at 6000 m altitude near Danzig, it was also stopped), but the bomber tried to reach Berlin on two right engines, ran out of altitude (dropped bombs from 2000 m or less). On the way back the cruise speed was quite low (165 km/h) instead of >300 km/h and the bomber reached airfield in 10 hours instead of planned 8 on last drops of fuel
emphasis on mine.
If the plane didn't bomb Berlin (or Germany at all), the route with two engines was less than 1750km.
The Bidny's bomber bombed Berlin (according to the info from memoires, including crewmember of that TB-7, and several another sources) or dropped bombs over German-occupied territory 370 km from Berlin [station Laurenburg] because of very hard control of aircraft with left engine problems and decreasing the flight altitude (according to another sources, already mentioned, which describe the raid). His bomber landed on Obukhovo airfield [according to all sources] with a total absence of fuel after 10-hours flight [according to memoires, Stefanovsky's book]. So if Bidny bombed Berlin his route was ~1390 km (Pushkino-Berlin) + back distance from Berlin to Obukhovo (near Leningrad) = the route was not less than 2700-2800 km. If Bidny bombed German-occupied territory 370 km from Berlin because of impossibility to continue flight towards Berlin on two engines - the route was just 740 km shorter, but again far way from your 1750 km.......Please, make this clear! If you note 165 km/h (from Stefanovsky's book, the info about Bidny) - Bidny's flight engineer mentioned this speed on the way back after dropping bombs over Berlin [to cite correct - "Bidny held the direct course to Berlin....Bombed Berlin, protected by very strong AA defense, from 2000 m altitude seems to be complete bigotry... The target is below us, we dropped bombs over city"], but I am not sure that that was the average speed for the whole way back, it could increased later because of wind or pilot's efforts. The most correct info here is Obukhovo airfield where the bomber landed [near Leningrad], take it into consideration. The data from the identical source [Stefanovsky's book], is this some kind of mistake in data from flight engineer? - planned route 2700 km, fuel for 8 hours of flight, usual cruise speed for TB-7 with 4xM-40 engines - 300 km/h, speed of Bidny's bomber ~165 km/h on the way back (at least for some period of time) because 2 engines were stopped [they were stopped quite early according to this source - one in 40 min after take-off, another - over Danzig], landing after 10-h of flight.I have no possibility to use such source as bad memory otherwise you post a lot of critiqueJuha wrote:
I don't remember that.
I remember that he "dreamed" about that speed could be acchieved with "back wind".
IIRC the cruise speed Moscow - Scotland was about 300km/h (or little less) .
Source: (bad) memory
I remember at the moment the altitudes only and the fact that the speed of Pusep's bomber over Canada and USA was sometimes near maximal speed (443 km/h for TB-7 with AM-35A engines), as far as I remember he wrote exactly that they reached speed near 500 km/h because of "back wind" over Europe on the way back [some literature sources mention that 500 km/h was the average speed for the way back over Europe, but me seems this is too high]. Usual cruise speed over Europe on the way to Scotland and over Atlantic was 295-320 km/h indeed accoding to memoires [just for the info - cruise speeds of TB-7/Pe-8 were 300-360 km/h with 2 t of bombs depending of used engines]. His navigator Shtepenko mentioned in the memoires that sometimes the speed was 250 km/h because of 100 km/h contrary wind. Pusep "dreamed" than German fighters had no possibility to intercept his heavy bomber at high altitudes, that fact I remember for sure.Âûñîòà 8000 ìåòðîâ, òåìïåðàòóðà — 35 ãðàäóñîâ.
— Øòóðìàíû, êàêàÿ ïóòåâàÿ ñêîðîñòü è ÷åðåç ñêîëüêî âðåìåíè áóäåò ëèíèÿ ôðîíòà? — ñïðàøèâàåò Ïóñåï.
— Ïóòåâàÿ ñêîðîñòü 500 êèëîìåòðîâ â ÷àñ. Íà ëèíèè ôðîíòà áóäåì ÷åðåç ÷àñ, — îòâåòèë ÿ. ...Ïðîâåðÿþ çàïèñü â áîðòæóðíàëå, ðàññ÷èòûâàþ íà êàðòå è íà ëèíåéêå è ïîëó÷àþ òó æå ïóòåâóþ ñêîðîñòü, ðàâíóþ 500 êèëîìåòðîâ â ÷àñ. ˸ò÷èêè ïîêðóòèëè âïðàâî ìàëåíüêóþ ðó÷êó íà àâòîïèëîòå ñ íàäïèñüþ «ñíèæåíèå», è ñàìîë¸ò, íàêëîíèâ íîñ, ïîø¸ë ñî ñíèæåíèåì, îò÷åãî ïóòåâàÿ ñêîðîñòü åù¸ áîëüøå óâåëè÷èëàñü.
I can recommend you the good medicament against bad memoryAltitude - 8000 m, temperature - - 35 degrees. "Navigators, what is the ground speed and when will we reach the front line?" - Pusep asking. "Ground speed is 500 km/h, we will reach the front line in one hour" - answering I. I am checking the notes in flight log, estimating using both map and slide rule and getting the same result - ground speed is 500 km/h. Pilots turned a small handle of autopilot with the inscription "letdown" to the right and aircraft began to descend, lower the head, so ground speed increased more.
We agree much more oftenJuha wrote:
Finally something we agree?
I can recommend you the good medicament against bad/critique mood also The most interesting is point 2 - "To award a citation for the personal participation in bombing Berlin the following: brigade commander M.V. Vodopianov [indeed, very probably, bombed Berlin or suburbs - BP], aircraft commanders - comrades A.A. Kurban [indeed bombed Berlin or suburbs - BP], M.M. Ugryumov [indeed bombed Berlin or suburbs - BP], A.I. Panfilov [!!!], V.D. Vidny [sometimes cited as Bidny, indeed bombed German-occupied territory at least, see above - BP], V.A. Kubyshko [indeed bombed Berlin or suburbs, pilot of Er-2 - BP] and all crewmembers" The names of several TB-7 pilots: Tyagunin [who also reached Berlin according to many sources or was damaged by Soviet AA artillery on the way to Berlin according to some others], Egorov [crashed during take-off because of right engine problems] and Pepegelov [his bomber was the single TB-7 which landed on home airfield Pushkino after the raid!] weren't mention for some reason...........................«Ïåðâûé óäàð 81-é àä ïî ðàéîíó Áåðëèíà ïðîøåë óñïåøíî... Îäíàêî â ïðîöåññå ïîäãîòîâêè è ïîëåòà âûÿâëåí ðÿä ñóùåñòâåííûõ íåäîñòàòêîâ, òðåáóþùèõ íåìåäëåííîãî èñïðàâëåíèÿ. Êîìàíäîâàíèå äèâèçèè îðãàíèçàöèåé ïîëåòà ðóêîâîäèëî íåäîñòàòî÷íî, à íà÷àëüíèê øòàáà äèâèçèè ïîëêîâíèê Ëûøåíêî îò ðóêîâîäñòâà ñàìîóñòðàíèëñÿ.  ðåçóëüòàòå ïëîõîé óâÿçêè ìàðøðóòà èìåë ìåñòî îáñòðåë ëåòåâøèõ ñàìîëåòîâ íà çàäàíèå ñâîèìè èñòðåáèòåëÿìè, ÇÀ áåðåãîâîé îáîðîíû è êîðàáëåé. Ëåòíî-òåõíè÷åñêèé ñîñòàâ, íåñìîòðÿ íà äëèòåëüíóþ ïîäãîòîâêó ê ïîëåòó, â ïîëíîé ìåðå ìàòåðèàëüíîé ÷àñòè ìîòîðà è âîîðóæåíèÿ íå îñâîèë è ïëîõî çíàë åå ýêñïëóàòàöèþ. Ðàáîòà ìîòîðîâ íà êîðàáëÿõ ÒÁ-7 îêàçàëàñü íåóäîâëåòâîðèòåëüíîé è ïîñëóæèëà ïðè÷èíîé íåñêîëüêèõ âûíóæäåííûõ ïîñàäîê.
Ïðèêàçûâàþ:
1. Âîåííîìó ñîâåòó ÂÂÑ óäåëèòü îñîáîå âíèìàíèå ïîäãîòîâêå è ñîñòîÿíèþ 81-é àâèàäèâèçèè, ïîïîëíèâ åå ïîëêè êîðàáëÿìè ÒÁ-7 ñ ìîòîðàìè 35ÀÌ è 35À, ñàìîëåòàìè Åð-2 ñ ìîòîðàìè ÀÌ-37 è ñàìîëåòàìè ÄÁ-3 ñ äîïîëíèòåëüíûìè áàêàìè, èìåÿ â âèäó èñïîëüçîâàíèå äèâèçèè äëÿ ñèñòåìàòè÷åñêèõ óäàðîâ ïî âîåííûì îáúåêòàì ãëóáîêîãî òûëà ïðîòèâíèêà.
2. Çà ëè÷íîå ó÷àñòèå â áîìáàðäèðîâàíèè Áåðëèíà îáúÿâèòü áëàãîäàðíîñòü êîìáðèãó Ì. Â. Âîäîïüÿíîâó, êîìàíäèðàì êîðàáëåé òîâ. Êóðáàíó À. À., Óãðþìîâó Ì. Ì, Ïàíôèëîâó À. È., Âèäíîìó Â. Ä., Êóáûøêî Â. À. è âñåìó ëè÷íîìó ñîñòàâó ýêèïàæåé.
3. Âûäåëèòü åäèíîâðåìåííîå âîçíàãðàæäåíèå ó÷àñòíèêàì ïîëåòà íà Áåðëèí, à ëó÷øèõ èç íèõ ïðåäñòàâèòü ê ïðàâèòåëüñòâåííûì íàãðàäàì.
4. Ó÷èòûâàÿ ëè÷íûå áîåâûå êà÷åñòâà òîâ. Âîäîïüÿíîâà êàê ëåò÷èêà-êîìàíäèðà êîðàáëÿ, íî â òî æå âðåìÿ íå èìåþùåãî äîñòàòî÷íûõ êîìàíäíûõ íàâûêîâ è îïûòà â îðãàíèçàòîðñêîé ðàáîòå, íåîáõîäèìîé â êîìàíäîâàíèè ñîåäèíåíèÿìè, îñâîáîäèòü Âîäîïüÿíîâà îò êîìàíäîâàíèÿ 81-é àâèàäèâèçèåé.
5. Íàçíà÷èòü êîìàíäèðîì 81-é àâèàäèâèçèè ïîäïîëêîâíèêà òîâ. Ãîëîâàíîâà À. Å. è ïðèñâîèòü åìó âîèíñêîå çâàíèå — ïîëêîâíèê.
6. Ñíÿòü ñ äîëæíîñòè íà÷àëüíèêà øòàáà äèâèçèè ïîëêîâíèêà Ëûøåíêî êàê íåñïðàâèâøåãîñÿ ñ ðàáîòîé.
7. Íàçíà÷èòü íà÷àëüíèêîì øòàáà 81-é àâèàäèâèçèè ïîëêîâíèêà Èëüèíà Í. È.»
BIGpanzer wrote:Hi again, Juha!
By the way - you pay too much attention to booklets
http://www.answers.com/topic/bookletbooklet = A small bound book or pamphlet, usually having a paper cover.
Thanks.BP wrote:Yes, this is quite good info and should be taken into consideration at least. The take-off time near 22.00 and crash time 02.10 [if to believe the data from you] supported this very well. But we should take into consideration also that a lot of respectful sources mention that Panfilov's TB-7 was damaged by German AA fire and then the bomber headed to Finland, and this is interesting. Two moments are still very unclear - when did senior lieutenant Panfilov die (during the crash or before? Was he wounded by AA fire or not?) and why he ordered to head the bomber to Finland (especially if to believe that the bomber was damaged by Soviet AA artillery on its way to Berlin - it could be more logical just to return back in my opinion or headed to the south trying to reach the home airfield then - it was also possible; if to believe that the bomber was damaged by German AA fire it is also very interesting - was it a navigation mistake [for very experienced pilot as Panfilov it is strange] or what? - it could be better to make flight towards Pushkino and land somewhere than to cross Gulf of Finland for quite unclear reason). Co-pilot could lock controls of flight but Panfilov and even flight engineer could use their own controls [just for the info as this is not very important for discussion]....Dropping bombs near Soviet AA batteries/warships (if to believe this) should be documented by Soviets, but AFAIK there are no such mentions.......Anyway, Juha's version seems to be quite interesting and very possible. I found this night one source also which mentions - "TB-7 of senior lieutenant Panfilov was knocked down by AA artillery of Baltic Sea Navy by mistake, the aircraft crashed in Finland....." - http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/sdo5.htmJuha wrote:On their way to the target the Soviet AAA fired and hit at it over Saaremaa or Hiiumaa.
then the pilot Panfilov ordered to drop the bombs and headed to north in order to get that way home.
When already over Finland (and after escaping Finnish searchlights by diving) the right wing engine nacelle mg gunner reported of oil at the floor of his compartment. The oil was from the engines, and when it was knee deep, the inner right engine stopped. Soon after that the outer right engine jammed.
Then the co-pilot locked the controls to level flight, locked the cabin door and baled out ( he survived the bale-out and managed to flee couple of tens of km before he was caught. When he and the crew survived met at a Finnish prison, one of the crew members hit him to face with fist).
After that the plane crashed to the woods of Rutumi, Lapinjärvi
Thanks.BP wrote:PS. Just for the info - computer graphic image of Pe-8's cockpit, the place of the 1st pilot. The control panel to the right had much more indicators below, which are not visible here [21 are visible, but there were 55 or even more!] [flight engineer sat under pilot's cabin and could see that panel also]. There was radio receiver/transmitter below the control panel to the left as radio operator sat under pilot's cabin also. The control panel of 2nd pilot was more simple. Cockpit windscreen was equipped with external thermometer (to the right side) and pipes of ice-protection system.
http://acn.waw.pl/sturm/Obrazki/Pe8%20Cockpit.jpg
See also excellent blueprints - http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/pe8.html
OKBP wrote:Just for the info we were discussing the images of swastika. Juha, could you please, remove that image [it will be better to have the only images about bombers here] but post only the link to it -Juha wrote:
http://forum.axishistory.com/v.....t=swastika
http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/banknotes/ru ... 1917_b.JPG?
Just for the info - that was 250 rouble banknote of 1917 [Kerensky's interjacent government]
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/swastika/ro ... tikas.html , such image of swastika was used also for 1000 rouble banknotes of Kerensky's period as well as for 500, 1000 and 10.000 rouble banknotes of Soviet Republic in 1918-19 -
http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/banknotes/ru ... edos_f.jpg
Here is the excellent image as example of Soviet swastika - http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum ... 144995.jpg This is the hash mark of Red cavalry units (Kalmyk) of South-Eastern front in 1919-1920. In principle - swastika was an ancient Russian religious symbol also, so called "solar symbol, bestowing God's grace and finding salvation".
The members of present-day Russian Nationalist Union [several times prohibited but still powerful party, having thousands of members in many Russian cities
http://www.rne.org/images/swast/flagrne.jpg [Russian swastika so called "kolovrat"]
http://www.rnebarkashov.ru/foto/ff002.jpg http://www.rnebarkashov.ru/foto/ff006.jpg http://www.rnebarkashov.ru/foto/ff020.jpg http://www.rnebarkashov.ru/foto/ff021.jpg
I'll get "back" on this issue later, abit late here, OK?BP wrote:My calculations proved that the info in memoires about ~2700 km route [both ways] is truth. 3100 km : 8 hours = 387.5 km/h (average speed for the whole route), this is too high for bombers with M-40 diesels, full of bombs. TB-7 with diesels had the lowest speed among all modifications [but very good range - 5460 km, with later diesels ACh-30B even much more - 7800 km {with additional fuel tanks, otherwise - 5600 km} with 2 t of bombs] - maximal speed was only 390-393 km/h at 5700 m altitude. TB-7 with AM-35A engines had maximal speed 443 km/h at 6400 m altitude [range 3600 km], for example.Juha wrote: Interesting info.
3100km seems a bit optimistic with the fuel to 8 hour flight you mentioned earlier
Juha wrote:? How does the route depend on amount of engines? The speed depends on amount on engines. Why did you mention 1750 km [I never mentioned this!]? I still don't understand your logic.....BP earlier wrote:
V. Bidny had problems with two left engines (one unexpectedly caught fire in 40 min after take-off, and Bidny ordered to stop it; the second diesel caught fire at 6000 m altitude near Danzig, it was also stopped), but the bomber tried to reach Berlin on two right engines, ran out of altitude (dropped bombs from 2000 m or less). On the way back the cruise speed was quite low (165 km/h) instead of >300 km/h and the bomber reached airfield in 10 hours instead of planned 8 on last drops of fuel
emphasis on mine.
If the plane didn't bomb Berlin (or Germany at all), the route with two engines was less than 1750km.
In my opinion - if bombs were dropped 370 km from Berlin, the route was ~2000 km. 2000 km : 10 = 200 km/h - seems to be correct (the speed of bomber on two engines could be 160-240 km/h, also note that bomber got down from 6000 m to 2000 m during the way to Berlin, and its speed increased in flat diving; on the other hand - the bomber tried to climbe on two engines on the way back, so the speed could be very low then, but we know nothing about wind speed). No, the only "mistake" - claim of flight engineer that they bombed Berlin (or wrong interpretation of his word "target" by Stefanovsky).....
As the co-pilot of Puusepp wrote the "wind factor" could be as much as 100km/h or more ..."pushing" a "350km/h plane" to the "dream" 500km/h limit?BP wrote:I have no possibility to use such source as bad memory otherwise you post a lot of critiqueJuha wrote: I don't remember that.
I remember that he "dreamed" about that speed could be acchieved with "back wind".
IIRC the cruise speed Moscow - Scotland was about 300km/h (or little less) .
Source: (bad) memory
Just found (memoires from Shtepenko) - http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/sht ... p2/10.htmlÂûñîòà 8000 ìåòðîâ, òåìïåðàòóðà — 35 ãðàäóñîâ.
— Øòóðìàíû, êàêàÿ ïóòåâàÿ ñêîðîñòü è ÷åðåç ñêîëüêî âðåìåíè áóäåò ëèíèÿ ôðîíòà? — ñïðàøèâàåò Ïóñåï.
— Ïóòåâàÿ ñêîðîñòü 500 êèëîìåòðîâ â ÷àñ. Íà ëèíèè ôðîíòà áóäåì ÷åðåç ÷àñ, — îòâåòèë ÿ. ...Ïðîâåðÿþ çàïèñü â áîðòæóðíàëå, ðàññ÷èòûâàþ íà êàðòå è íà ëèíåéêå è ïîëó÷àþ òó æå ïóòåâóþ ñêîðîñòü, ðàâíóþ 500 êèëîìåòðîâ â ÷àñ. ˸ò÷èêè ïîêðóòèëè âïðàâî ìàëåíüêóþ ðó÷êó íà àâòîïèëîòå ñ íàäïèñüþ «ñíèæåíèå», è ñàìîë¸ò, íàêëîíèâ íîñ, ïîø¸ë ñî ñíèæåíèåì, îò÷åãî ïóòåâàÿ ñêîðîñòü åù¸ áîëüøå óâåëè÷èëàñü.Altitude - 8000 m, temperature - - 35 degrees. "Navigators, what is the ground speed and when will we reach the front line?" - Pusep asking. "Ground speed is 500 km/h, we will reach the front line in one hour" - answering I. I am checking the notes in flight log, estimating using both map and slide rule and getting the same result - ground speed is 500 km/h. Pilots turned a small handle of autopilot with the inscription "letdown" to the right and aircraft began to descend, lower the head, so ground speed increased more.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/sht ... p2/10.htmlContinuous clouds and high tailwind were assumed according to the extended forecast on entire our way.
Not so easy. At first - we don't know the truth at the moment for 100% sure [somebody can only believe that he knows the truthJuha wrote:
I knew the truth, after all the humbug, would eventualy pop up also at the"Russian side"
], secondly - there was no place for any humbug here [you again use a very incorrect terminology Hmm...although..., you can use this epithet to "your" guy in brown field cap near wrecks or to several another questions, for example, concerning the role of license copying in Soviet aircraft [not engine - my note] industry of 1930s], but there is a discussion of historical sources, which was possible to find and each of which is quite informative and was written by experienced persons [but all sources contain some mistakes, this is obvious and therefore we are here; many times I found that even the best books about aircraft make some mistakes in specifications and mixing modifications, for example]. I am not on the "Russian side" [it will be interesting to see the opinions of Russian guys, where they are?], I am "neutral", just trying to find the interesting info for me and discuss it here . At the moment I only can note that two theories about route of Panfilov's bomber exist - it reached Germany, was damaged by German AA artillery and headed to Finland on the way back [~10-15 good sources about TB-7s], or it headed to Finland after it was damaged by Soviet AA artillery on the way to Berlin [~2-3 good sources about TB-7s + your info]. The last theory is supported for 100% with only the fact that Finns claimed that crash happened 02.10 am, but did they find bomber immediately after crash or captured crewmembers said this during interrogations [may be they tried to hide the info that the target was Berlin because of high level of secrecy before and during the raid, and they had no info about the results of the raid, of course]? and how to prove for sure that info about 2nd theory is correct? It seems also very strange that People's Commissar of Defense mentioned Panfilov in his order after the raid - profless missing persons [="enemies" for 1941] were not mentioned in such important orders, probably, some info about him existed then already [still need to find it]. Personally I believe that the 2nd theory [Panfilov's TB-7 was damaged by friendly fire and had no possibility to reach Germany] was more possible to some degree, but we have a very limited info [at least here] to prove this for sure.....Still absolutely unclear the time of death for senior lieutenant Panfilov [especially] and the exact reason to head bomber towards Finland in the case of both theories. It is also quite interesting for me why quite many sources mention the exact name only of one survivor [even if they mention exactly that five men were captured during the way to Soviet line, not that only this one survived during the possible combat].....I've already mentioned the detailed location of fuel tanks somewhere here above - there were 19 fuel tanks (5 in centre wing between longerons, 5 in each half wing between longerons, 2 in each ahead of the wing). Nevertheless, early modifications had 16-18 fuel tanks. Fuel tanks were welded, made from special aluminium-manganese alloy. All fuel tanks were protected by thin rubber coat and had system of filling them with gas from engine exhaust manifolds during using fuel. The half wing fuel tanks were fixed on bands to the top flangs of the main wing ribs and could be removed one by one through the large hatch on each half wing upper surface. Fuel load - 10800-13025 kg [or up to 17000 l], depending of modification [sometimes additional fuel tanks could be installed - for example, for Pusep's flight to USA]. As for the "transfer" of fuel between half wings - I don't know this exactly [I can only assume that it was very possible because of fuel tanks in centre wing and the connections between tanks - are you still thinking about stopped engines and route lengthJuha wrote:
Thanks.
BTW, do you know about the fuel system of the gasoline/diesel TB-7.. where were the fuel tanks? At wings?
If so was it posible to "transfer" fuel from another wing to another?
] and I will try to find this info for you especially, with respect [despite the facts that you didn't respond/react on several my questions about Panfilov and ask with banknote as off-topic image, thanks a lot]. Ah, yes, sorry in advance, if the sources will be "fairytale" or "humbugy" as you call them sometimes in the forum - I assume that there are only a few detailed sources about fuel systems of TB-7 on Russian and no on English and German [may be on Finnish a lot , I don't know], so as they are.Not co-pilot but navigator; this doesn't matter, but be very careful, my dear friendJuha wrote:
As the co-pilot of Puusepp wrote the "wind factor" could be as much as 100km/h or more ..."pushing" a "350km/h plane" to the "dream" 500km/h limit?
IIRC they didn't dream about the exact value of speed.
] Pe-8 often had speed 500 km/h (140 m/s) in flat diving during bombing missions, and that was officially recommended dive speed for aircraft with 2 t of bombs [just for the info, as we are talking about horizontal flight, Shtepenko mentioned flat diving later also IIRC]. Yes, that book "Navigator's notes" by A.P. Shtepenko about that flight to USA with Minister Molotov on board was published in 1945 and I couldn't find really obvious incorrectnesses there [at least in the parts, I had time to translate], moreover, he described British (except unskillful radio operator, probably) and US officers in a very friendly and respectful way [later it was impossible, but Cold War didn't began yet ]. For sure, this is not a historical research book but just navigator's notes of corresponding period, read and analyze them. There were also two books by Pusep: "On long air ways" [Puusepp E. Kaugetel Lennu-teedel. Tallin: Easti Raamat, 1973 - on Estonian and on Russian] and "Restless sky" [Tallin, 1978 - on Russian]. But I translated/read them only quite shortly yet, the last one is a good source about bombing raids of TB-7/Pe-8 also, but Pusep didn't mention many other participants, describing his own flights mainly [but not always]. For example about the AA fire (probably, friendly, as the bombers took-off recently) on the way to Berlin in August 1941 he wrote only what he saw personally - Regards, BPThe course was plotted over the dark gray waters of Baltic Sea. The explosions of AA shells flamed on the horizon far away to the left [that means that bombers flew far away from the coastline, over the sea - BP] . "Probably, somebody of us deviated from the course" - Shtepenko [navigator - BP] assumes. "It is possible" - commander [Vodopianov - BP] answeres thoughtfully.
