I'm sorry if your older posts annoy you.BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha, as you have annoying tendency [sometimes ] to quote phrases, which have a little common with the topic, and, moreover, were explained to you already
You have used mainly (if not all) web articles as your sources, even you have printed material about the case. What does Unger and Maslov write about that case.BP wrote:It will be much more important to think how to prove that Panfilov's TB-7 was damaged by Soviet AA artillery not German AA artillery (or vice versa)
Wasn't the location of Lapinjärvi and Lauenburg mentioned at neither of them?
Yes, that is strange, specially in the light of this document (emphasis on mine):BP wrote:It is also quite strange for me that People's Commissar of Defense mentioned pilot Panfilov in the order from 17.08.1941 together with pilots who reached Berlin.
I really wonder where the info about that Panfilov reached Berlin, was from?BP earlier wrote:Here the historical document - telegram from 12 August 1941 of Air Force commander (he was also the Deputy Defense People's Commissar) lieutenant-general P.F. Zhigarev to Air Force HQ:
"... Ñ 21.00 äî 22.00 [timetable - when the raid began, BP] 10 àâãóñòà íà âûïîëíåíèå çàäàíèÿ âûëåòåëè 7 ÒÁ-7 è 3 Åð-2 [7 TB-7 and 3 Yer-2 - BP]. Ïî ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûì äàííûì, ïî öåëè ðàáîòàëè 2 ÒÁ-7 è 2 Åð-2 [2 TB-7 and 2 Yer-2 bombed target (Berlin) according to preliminary data - BP. Note: 5 TB-7 bombed German territory, including Berlin - BP]. Îäèí ÒÁ-7 ñáðîñèë áîìáû äî ïîäõîäà ê öåëè, òàê êàê ñäàë ìîòîð. Âåðíóëèñü è ñåëè â Ïóøêèíå òîëüêî 1 ÒÁ-7 è 1 Åð-2 [1 TB-7 and 1 Yer-2 landed on Pushkino, home airfield - BP]... Î Âîäîïüÿíîâå è Ïàíôèëîâå äàííûõ íåò [no info about Vodopianov and Panfilov yet - BP]... Óñòàíîâèòü, ïî÷åìó èìåëî ìåñòî 3 ñëó÷àÿ îòêàçà ïðàâîé ãðóïïû ìîòîðîâ, ïîêà íå óäàëîñü [no possibility to find the reason of 3 cases of failure of right engines - BP]. Êîìäèâ è øòàá äèâèçèè ðàáîòàþò ïëîõî [divisional commander and divisional HQ worked bad - BP], ñ òàêèì êîìàíäîâàíèåì äèâèçèè è øòàáîì òðóäíî îðãàíèçîâàòü ÷òî-òî ñåðüåçíîå, òàê êàê ñëó÷àéíî íàáðàííûå ëþäè äåéñòâóþò âðàçáðîä è â îäèíî÷êó. Ïðîøó ðàçðåøåíèÿ èñïðàâíûå ÒÁ-7 è Åð-2 ïåðåáðîñèòü îáðàòíî â Êàçàíü [Let me serviceable TB-7 and Yer-2 returned back to Kazan - BP]. Íàçíà÷èòü êîìäèâîì Ãîëîâàíîâà [Let me appoint Golovanov as divisional commander - BP]. Íàçíà÷èòü äðóãîãî íà÷àëüíèêà øòàáà...[Let me appoint another chief of divisional staff]"
Perhaps it was just Krysin that survived the war?BP wrote:]It is also quite strange for me that a few amount of Russian sources which even mention the Panfilov's crewmembers, mention only the name of gunner Krysin as survivor [and the names of six died crewmembers]. You, dear Juha, avoid to help me to find any answers to these questions
It would also be interesting to know the sources and to what they are claimed to be based at.
What mention?BP wrote:You mentioned also that my favourite aviation site [which was excellent indeed and, probably, the most detailed site in Internet about world's aircraft - http://www.airwar.ru] mentions Ìîëîä÷èé as Molodcii, and you mistaked here - that site mentions his surname as Molodchiy. English letters "ch" mean Russian letter/sound "÷".
I had deleted that part off from my post, before your post, as I wasn't sure about the site credibility.
BP earlier wrote:You can choose one of the two variants for future discussions [I prefer Molodchy]
Thanks for the aditional options.BP wrote:In principle all mentioned variants (except the last one, see above - "ch") are quite correct.
Everything has been clear from the begining.BP wrote:Everything is clear?
I have understood your mistakes/typos and you mine.
Actually that has been a very nice thing to notice in general at AHF.
That was a typo, I believe. Sorry.BP wrote:PS. When you mentioned the book "Batteries of Moonzund" by Yury Melkonov, you mentioned Yury [Þðèé, the same end as Ìîëîä÷èé] according to transliteration rules, I use. Yury, Molodchy, Sikorsky. etc.
I should have (perhaps) used Jury instead of Yury.
That leads to the fact(?) that translating names (places and specially people) it's just not exact translating letter by letter, but there is the phonetic part also. Important is that how the word is pronounced. When translating for instance writing from cyrillic to latin, it also depends to the the "receiving end" how the word should be translated.
For example the plane name that is translated to english as Yak is usually written as Jak here in Finland:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2His ... istus.html
So one single name can have several "right" names, depending who uses them.
At names of persons, it's also quite important how the person him(her)self calls (wants to be called) him/her.
About place names...I think it's best to use a well known name original or a english language name (if there is any)
I've tried to use such a place names that, if not familiar to the reader, can be easily checked from, say at Google image search.
I don't now does it make any difference, was he born in Russian Siberia or Russian Estonia.BP wrote:2. About pilot of heavy bomber TB-7 E. Pusep [1909-1996] - http://www.allaces.ru/sssr/foto/pusep.jpg [major E.K. Pusep]Juha wrote:
AFAIK he was Puusepp by birth
He was Ïóñýï by birth as he was born in Siberia in 1909 [his Estonian parents moved from Estland province to Siberia in 1905]. As he was a Soviet pilot all his documents were on Russian, of course [direct transliteration from Ïóñýï gives Pusep].
BP wrote:PS. One of the Panfilov's crewmembers was a Tartar by nationality. Do you want to write his name on Tartar language, for example
I would prefer Tatar over Tartar.
If he has a Tatar name, a latin translation of it is OK (of course that makes the things a bit more complicated to have several names to a single person, but it's hardly possible to deny ones real name.
As with Puusepp)
In Soviet documents most probably, about Finnish I'm not so sure.BP wrote:[in official documents his name was written on Russian, of course]
BP wrote:3. About geographical names.Juha wrote:
P.S. how about the place names?
Estonian islands, like: Saaremaa or Oesel/Ösel?
Soviet names, like: Luga bay or Luzskaya Bay?
Estonian island - Saaremaa (on Estonian), Ýçåëü (Esel, on Russian), Ösel (on Swedish), Øsel (on Danish).
Some atlases use Oesel and Saare Maa, by the way; in my opinion Äsel [Aesel] is more correct taking into consideration sounds in Russian language, but according to transliteration tables - much better to use Esel. I asked one of my Russian friend [professor of oceanology] about Saaremaa this summer - he wrote it as Esel on English and didn't understand Oesel].
In our case the best variant seems to be - Esel (Saaremaa)
Esel is at my mind one of the least suitable names.Juha wrote:I've tried to use such a place names that, if not familiar to the reader, can be easily checked from, say at Google image search
One can try what kind of revealing info Esel or Esel island or Esel Estonia gives from the image search compared to the similar combinations of the other options.
I have no problems in understanding both options, but I (too) find Luga bay better here.BP wrote:Luzhskaya bay - not a Soviet name, of course, but old historical Russian name (XIII-XIV c.c.?). Luzhskaya bay [Ëóæñêàÿ ãóáà] is the original name, it was used in Russian maps and some detailed foreign atlases [including my favourite large naval British atlas from 1923!]. Luga [Ëóãà] is the name for river [mentioned under the same name in medieval Novgorodian chronicles as the river of the lands of Balto-Finnic tribe Vod, which was under the influence of Novgorod since XI c.; on Vodic - Laugaz] and town [since 1777, before - village] nearby [at the moment - town Ust-Luga, Kingisepp township of Leningrad Region [but capital of the region has the name St. Petersburg ], ~40 km from Narva]. So many maps use the name "Luga bay" for this reason and also because English language doesn't distinguish Russian nouns and adjectives [Luzhskaya is the direct adjective from Luga]. In this case both names are very correct, but Luzhskaya is a little bit more complicated - http://www.greenworld.org.ru/eng/publ/mapscfg.htm (location).
BP wrote:Juha wrote:Do you know where is Laurenburg?
No, in this case I don't know exactly. I can only assume that this is Polish station/town near Danzig/Gdansk, renamed by Germans during occupation, and there is no such name at the moment. I will try to find this. I know, of course, that there is Laurenburg in Rheinland-Pfalz, but this is very differ case taking into consideration the route of Soviet bombers
Stop, I have an idea, how I could forget there was German town Lauenburg in Pommern for sure! Now Polish Lębork in Middle Pomerania region [Pomeranian Voivodeship of Poland]. By memory, Lauenburg/Lębork is ~50-60 km from Danzig/Gdansk, ~340-350 km from Berlin.
The source just made a small mistake and mentioned Lauenburg as Laurenburg [370 km from Berlin], very probably! I am sure, that was Lauenburg/Lębork, and TB-7 of lieutenant Bidny bombed railway station there because of problems with two engines and impossibility to reach Berlin, then bomber started the flight back to home airfield.
Juha wrote:You have used mainly (if not all) web articles as your sources, even you have printed material about the case. What does Unger and Maslov write about that case.
Wasn't the location of Lapinjärvi and Lauenburg mentioned at neither of them?