Still prefer over-quoting
Well, especially for you!
It's the easiest way to stay aware of your opinion developments.
As I've already mentioned - deep knowledge development
Your quoted conversational phrases which have little/nothing common with the knowledge of the problem much more often
My reason - to show you sometimes your mistakes and/or misunderstandings!
Don't know, I haven't read the book.
From what I know, the the POWs at farm work were often not guarded at all.
I've already provided you with all necessary info from that short chapter of the book, so you don't need to read it, just answer do you have the same info or not? [that captured crewmember(s) worked at farm].
Juha earlier wrote:
The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941 v.....;start=150
And I especially asked you about this
...to remind me.
Actually not "some sources" but:
Did you find the second source in my posts?
Of course "the Finns" knew where they captured the crew. Antipov was captured (as mentioned before) at Ruotsinpyhtää v.....;start=150
and the rest of the crew AFAIK at Lapinjärvi.
About capture in Lapinjärvi you "exactly" mentioned only several days ago - IIRC as the third possibility to combat and capture near the front line [and some rumors "spreaded" during the discussions of the uniform of the soldier near the wrecks
]. The facts that Antipov bailed out and other crewmembers were captured not far away from Lapinjärvi are quite possible in my opinion but still in doubt [Antipov could stay in aircraft, crewmembers could be captured far away from the crash place].
How credible you rate the Rigamant book from the historical point of view?
Who is "Rigamant"? I don't know such author
From my opinion [as I've already read a lot of sources about TB-7/Pe-8] - not bad/not excellent: as I could understand, Rigmant described in great details the development of ANT-42 as prototype of TB-7 in 1936-1938, its very successful flight tests, development of engines, start the series production and description of production technology, arrest and tortures of designer Petlyakov, changing the Stalin's theories of strategical bombing which caused stop and restoration of TB-7/Pe-8 production, how the production of Pe-2 almost stopped the production of Pe-8, etc. [with unique photos and archive documents] - sounds quite knowledgable [nevertheless, my Russian friend found quite many mistakes in this info, I am not a very experienced specialist in the development of ANT-42 in 1930s]. But Rigmant paid much less attention to the use of TB-7/Pe-8 during the war and based his info on well-known but not very correct sources as me seems [he mixed up the factory numbers of bombers - Panfilov's TB-7 had the number 42026, but Rigmant used 42046 as many other not very correct sources did. He also wrote shortly about that bombing raid against Berlin and Pusep's flight to USA, but even didn't mention bombing raids of Pe-8 against Königsberg, Warsaw, Helsinki, Budapest, Bucharest, etc. as well as many tactical operations of those heavy bombers, including extremelly dangerous raids over Orel railroad center in summer 1943]. The large part of his book describes technical aspects of Pe-8, its modifications [especially, transport for paratroopers and passenger for VIP] and projects [improved TB-7, so called bomber "T", should look very similar to B-29, but that was not done]. I agree with your opinion [based on several scans] - this is good book about design of TB-7/Pe-8 [and development of its construction from early ANT-42 to late Pe-8 ON with diesels ACh-30B]. I also think that Maslov's book is much better and very detailed Unger's book is much-much better.
Any of them about raid of Berlin (Panfilov) ?
No, as I've already written in e-mail - Rigmant didn't mention any source about the use of TB-7/Pe-8 in bombing raids but the info he wrote about the Berlin raid 1941 is mentioned very often in Internet also. It's hard to understand the initial origin of this info [my Russian friend was very angry when he bought Rigmant's book and didn't find the sources].
I'm not interested at the scans, but the info from the books you have mentioned you have, and we have been waiting for (too) long.
The most interesting info I've already posted here [Maslov and Unger mentioned the same sources in their books], but I will post additional interesting info soon. Unger's book consists of ~300 pages, so not all info, please
Not too long as we began to discussed these two books only very recently....Not we but only you, probably
[but I hope that some other forum members are also interested in it].
even a small splinter may cause oil or blood to leake.
True, despite that pilots were protected with 9mm torso back armor. I believe that the damages were quite significant or serious [according to the best sources at the moment]. "Oil"
always meant and means lubrication oil here as I prefer to use the term "diesel fuel" instead of "diesel oil". As Panfilov answered to "undercarriage" gunner by telephone and gave orders at first - may be his oxygen equipment [probably, damaged or swithched off because of oil invasion into one of the oxygen cylinder] was the reason of his death.
Of course I value that.
And from my point of view...Persistence pays off , doesn't it ?
Thanks a lot - hard to notice this from your "over-quoted" letters
My persistence almost always achieves good results
This time thanks for my Russian friend I decided to contact by e-mail, he provided me with the excellent info I never find by myself.
Juha wrote about take-off timetable:
Of course....Despite your attempts to prove that the whole raid started ~22.00 - am I right?
Interesting, this means that telegram from Zhigarev was quite correct (take-off time 21.00-22.00). Kurban's navigator remembered in his memoires the exact route excellent and his timetable was also quite good, but he mistaked in take-off timetable of their bomber for some reason [IIRC he wrote 20.20, damn I don't like to scroll the whole thread, sorry].
If the flight time of Panfilov plane was from ~2200 hours to ~0200 hours (and accordind to your calculations it got hit from the German AAA over Liepaja) (why would it be over there?) what would have been the timetable?
Very probably, Krysin mentioned crash time 02.03 according to Finnish time and he remembered it as somebody told him about it in prison [so it should be 03.03], and flight lasted 5 hours. I meant that if the bomber was shelled by AA artillery during the 3rd hour of flight [you can forgot about crash time for a second] and it had the speed 380 km/h [well, during the first hour of flight less because of climbing], so the distance between Pushkino and point of AA fire was 280-300 km [1st hour] + 380 [2nd hour] + ?km [beginning of the 3rd hour] =>700 km, right? Where it could be? Most probably - near Liepaja [the route passed between Liepaja and Gottland, see above]. This is my assumption.
Also I don't think that Soviet AA batteries on Oesel/Saaremaa liked to use search lights because of closeness of German army units, also almost all other bombers were attacked by Soviet fighters and AA artillery quite soon after take-off, near Luga bay. But the most important info is, of course, 380 km/h and 3rd hour. Probably, that is why quite many sources mention that Panfilov's bomber was damaged by Germans.
Also - Tyko and Hjalmar Blomqvist, according to the Finnish auto-magazine 4/89
Thanks for the correction. Unger mentioned them as brothers Tiko and Haalmar Blomkrist also [I just transliterated their names directly from Russian newspaper text].
Only two crewmembers could return back to USSR after WWII [three others were missing, no info about them, how it is possible? - BP].
Juha earlier wrote:
If they didn't return to USSR after the war, there are several options:
- he died during the war in Finland
-he were send to Germany (Finland had an exhange program with Germany during the war: we got Fenno-Ugric POW's from German camps inexhange of our Soviet POW:s)
-he co-operated with Finns and fled to West after the war. ( a personal memory from the past v.....ht=#333828
(also scroll down a bit)
No, I meant how it was possible that Finns don't have the exact info about them. In any case [death, sending to Germany, co-operation - Antipov, probably
] it should be mentioned somewhere in Finnish sources. But Soviet newspaper gave the info that nobody knows and Finnish Government made several attempts but couldn't help according to Soviet request after WWII.
Hmmm...as 'm not very good at maths... but from 1982 to 1989 isn't that much.
Sorry, for unknown reason I was sure this evening that "Mobilisti" was from 1996. Probably, brain tiredness
Mitrinyuk just giving the names (from a Finnish memorial?)
Or from memoires and Soviet Air Force documents (for sure, all crewmembers were listed somewhere). Are all names of six crewmembers mentioned by Finnish memorial? Still no photo of it......When it was installed exactly? The exact names of all Panfilov's crewmembers appeared in Russian sources in 1991 at least.
Juha wrote about Pe-8 No. 421010, knocked down over Helsinki 27.02.1944
I'll get back later
This will be interesting. I was realy wondering that you had (still have?) absolutely no info about this case.
Juha wrote about the Russian opinions about Rigmant's book:
PS. Have you seen your e-mail already?