Heavy and long-range bombers of the allies - exact losses

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Jan 2007 22:39

BIGpanzer wrote:You have a quite strange logic, my dear friend, especially quoting earlier posts together with more modern. A new info appeared, I found new sources, read posts from another members and made some analysis - so this is not "change of opinion" but posting of additional info according to new sources.
If not "change of opinion" then what? "development of opinion"?
You first belived on one number, then others and finally back to about the same as the original opinion.
If you belive on the 2020 hour start time given by Kurban navigator you cant believe on the Air Force commander lieutenant-general P.F. Zhigarev (or the authentity of the telegram sent under his name) any more:
BP earlier wrote:I believe that the most important source is the telegram from 12.08.1941 from Air Force commander lieutenant-general P.F. Zhigarev to Air Force HQ [see above the full text, my letter from 10.01.2007] - he wrote in his report that the raid started between 21.00-22.00, which is in full correspondance with two memoires, mentioned above. I think that the raid started ~21.00
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

BP wrote: if I knew everything for 100% sure from the beginning - no need to waste time here
I think differently - for me as much fun as learning more is, I as much like to correct incorrect opinions.
If I would know everything for 100% sure that just would be a little easier.


BP wrote:
Juha wrote:I could also help you to translate info from the Unger book, as I rate printed material better than "just" web sources.

Thanks a lot, I can do this by myself without any problems! Do you have this book also?
Very unfortunately, no.



BP wrote:
Juha wrote:For me it sounds believable .That info is not very relevant here, but by so far I haven't read anything that would change my opinion.

And what is your opinion about take-off order? Me seems that the same with mine about Panfilov's TB-7 - he took off as the last one, very probably......
Don't still know the exact order, but most probably Panfilov crew saw the accident of Molodchij (which delayed their take-off) in front of them.

BP wrote:What about this?:
BP earlier wrote:Could you please, give the full information from your source, not just some fragments?
. As for two books about TB-7 - I don't remember, did you asked me to scan some pages from them? I will post interesting info from these two books when I have more time [in many parts the info from them are identical to many on-line sources, I've already mentioned here, probably, Unger and Maslov used them also, may be in printed variants].
emphasis on mine
You seem not to have read the sources sections of the books?

BP wrote:I am very surprised that your source based on interrogation reports of captured crewmembers as you mentioned doesn't give any exact info about this:
Juha wrote:Well, either they did it on purpose, or not.
If on purpose....wanted to defect?
If not on purpose...either they could not control the plane or they were lost (=my choise)
BP wrote:
Wanted to defect - hard to believe, another purpose could be [you've already mentioned it also] - to return back to home airfield Pushkino after damages from AA fire (performing a turn later over Baltic Sea - one of the possible versions), another purpose is - to land in Finland because of absence of fuel [damage of oil or/and fuel system by AA fire] for reaching the home airfield - also quite possible version.
If not on purpose - indeed, the control systems could be damaged by AA fire also [this was proved to some degree by fact of destructive emergency landing/crash, but was unproved to some degree by fact that bomber dived to avoid Finnish search lights according to your source], the reason that they were lost is also quite possible from one hand - because navigation equipment could be damaged or Panfilov [very experienced pilot] could be wounded by AA fire - but the weather was not bad if Pusep saw coast line on the horizon, lighted by AA fire, during the flight, so the reason that pilots were lost was not very possible in my opinion.

Emphasis is mine.
I'm not surprised as the articles did not contain the whole interrogation reports.

Regards, Juha

P.S. thanks for the additional info and the photo links.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 22 Jan 2007 22:47

I don't have a good knowledge of this problem [all raids of Soviet bombers against Berlin in 1941], so lets discuss this later after collecting some good info at least. What I know at the moment - that naval aviation [bombers DB-3b, DB-3T and DB-3F] prepared to those raids better than long-range aviation [equipped with TB-7 and Er-2 also], and quite many Soviet bombs caused fires in Berlin [several photos are known with exact data, no British bombers were in sky over Berlin those days] despite the very strong AA defense of German capital, but, for sure, many bombs were dropped off the target also. The first Soviet raid against Berlin was performed by 15 DB-3T with 800 kg of bombs each from the 1st mine-and-torpedo air regiment of Baltic navy [commander of the group - colonel E. Preobrazhensky; home airfiels - on Oesel/Saaremaa] - night 07-08 August 1941. DB-3F bombers [commander of the group - major V. Shchelkunov] with 1300-1500 kg of bombs each started the regular raids against Berlin and other German cities since 11th August, 1941. Their military importance was very insignificant [that couldn't be the aim taking into consideration the amount of used bombers] but political importance was very high [especially after the first raid of DB-3T when Nazi propaganda cried that a lot of British bombers bombed Berlin until British Bomber Command disproved this completely] as all German-occupied countries/territories believed that Soviet Air Force was completely destroyed in June 1941 and that myth was scattered.

Mark V wrote:
German cows really hated Bomber Command. Soviets were just an small hindrance...

:lol: Good joke! But not for summer-autumn 1941! I agree with this for 1942-1945 taking into consideration efforts of US bomber pilots especially :wink:

Regards, BP

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Post by BIGpanzer » 22 Jan 2007 23:26

Hi, Juha!

Juha wrote:
thanks for the additional info and the photo links.

No problem :wink:

Juha wrote:
I'm not surprised as the articles did not contain the whole interrogation reports.

But I am surprised a lot as the exact reason to head the bomber toward Finland seems to be one of the most important and interesting [for Finnish journal especially].

Juha wrote:
You seem not to have read the sources sections of the books?

How do you think? No, I saw them carefully - some sources are very hard to find for me[archive data and articles from not well-known Russian journals] but some sources are the memoires indeed. I don't have the Maslov's book at the moment [it is in parent house], so I don't remember sources section from it.

Juha wrote:
Don't still know the exact order, but most probably Panfilov crew saw the accident of Molodchij (which delayed their take-off) in front of them.

I don't know, too. As I've written - I need time to print all sources and analyze them as they contain differ info, and I have no time for this. I agree that, probably, Molodchy's Er-2 crashed before TB-7 of Panfilov took-off [I have several evidences to assume that Panfilov's bomber belonged to Egorov's flight].

Juha wrote:
Very unfortunately, no.

If you wait ~2 weeks I provide you with the most interesting info for our discussion from the book by e-mail [scan]. Is it OK?

Juha wrote:
I think differently - for me as much fun as learning more is, I as much like to correct incorrect opinions.

You should collect a lot of knowledgable info here, but this is not the place for significant corrections 8-) Just check another threads for you fun :lol:

Juha wrote:
"development of opinion"?

This is better. I would say - the development of deep knowledge 8-)

Juha wrote:
If you belive on the 2020 hour start time given by Kurban navigator you cant believe on the Air Force commander lieutenant-general P.F. Zhigarev (or the authentity of the telegram sent under his name) any more:

You still don't understand :( In your opinion there are only "absolutely correct" or "absolutely wrong" sources? , but they are differ, even the worsest sources contain some good info the problem is how to find it. As for telegram - this is a very good source in general [and I believe to its authentity], but Kurban's navigator gave much more detailed info about timetable. And I've already written - I don't know exactly! Better to mention several the most detailed/important sources to show which kind of info exists. In my opinion [try to analyze sources also, dear Juha, I don't see any strong efforts from you, just believing to Finnish auto journal which is a good source, thanks a lot, but I found and analyzed much more sources here] - bombers started ~20.20, Zhigarev's mentioned in his telegram the generalized or, probably, planned time period of take-offs [21.00-22.00] to avoid any possible questions from Air Force HQ or Stalin. I also don't think that all info is so differ - 20.20 or 20.30 according to pilot memoires, or 21.00 according to sum up telegram about the raid. Moreover, these are almost identical info taking into consideration the differences in fates of TB-7s [Panfilov, Tyagunin, Bidny, etc.], according to differ sources :lol: Do you think so? :wink: By the way, I forgot how many sources about time of take-off do you have [except mine, mentioned here :wink: ]?

Regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Jan 2007 01:17

BIGpanzer wrote:But I am surprised a lot as the exact reason to head the bomber toward Finland seems to be one of the most important and interesting [for Finnish journal especially].
You don't have to be surprised any more: there was some info:
Panfilov ordered to drop the bombs and headed to north in order to get that way home
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:You seem not to have read the sources sections of the books?

How do you think? No, I saw them carefully - some sources are very hard to find for me[archive data and articles from not well-known Russian journals] but some sources are the memoires indeed. I don't have the Maslov's book at the moment [it is in parent house], so I don't remember sources section from it.
Thanks for the clarification, the "probably" here led me think that you were not sure:
BP earlier wrote:probably, Unger and Maslov used them also


BP wrote:
Juha wrote:"development of opinion"?

This is better. I would say - the development of deep knowledge 8-)
OK

BP wrote:You still don't understand
I understand perfectly well, thank you

BP wrote:In your opinion there are only "absolutely correct" or "absolutely wrong" sources?
BP wrote:I also don't think that all info is so differ - 20.20 or 20.30 according to pilot memoires, or 21.00 according to sum up telegram about the raid.
There is only one correct time of the start of the raid.
The others are wrong, how much - that depends on the error.
Why there are so many variations of that "simple" case - I don't know


BP wrote:but they are differ, even the worsest sources contain some good info the problem is how to find it.
True.


BP wrote:As for telegram - this is a very good source in general [and I believe to its authentity], but Kurban's navigator gave much more detailed info about timetable.
But that sure can't be a criteria. Even false info can be (masked) detailed.

BP wrote:Better to mention several the most detailed/important sources to show which kind of info exists.
I agree.

BP wrote: [try to analyze sources also, dear Juha, I don't see any strong efforts from you, just believing to Finnish auto journal which is a good source, thanks a lot, but I found and analyzed much more sources here]
I belive in quality over quantity.

BP wrote: Zhigarev's mentioned in his telegram the generalized or, probably, planned time period of take-offs [21.00-22.00] to avoid any possible questions from Air Force HQ or Stalin.
I've earlier too read about cases of forging info at official documents for similar reasons.
Sad.

BP wrote: By the way, I forgot how many sources about time of take-off do you have [except mine, mentioned here :wink: ]?
Hmmm...two...IIRC.
But, I still belive in quality over quantity.

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Jan 2007 01:52

Excellent generalized post! :wink:
Juha wrote:
Hmmm...two...IIRC.
But, I still belive in quality over quantity.

I always believe in quality over quantity but quantity is important for the most detailed analysis, and the result of analysis means quality :)
What is the measure of quality of your two sources [remind me, what is the second one :wink: ]? The auto journal is quite good source not worser in details about Panfilov's TB-7 then some good Russian sources with the info about Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers, mentioned here. If mentioning excellent photos - even better.

BP wrote:
Better to mention several the most detailed/important sources to show which kind of info exists.
Juha wrote:
I agree.

Good! :wink:

Juha wrote:
But that sure can't be a criteria. Even false info can be (masked) detailed.

Sure, the problem is how to check the detailed source to prove/unprove his correctness. Kurban's navigator memoires is the most detailed info about timetable and exact flight route we have at the moment. Did you find some mistakes there? I don't say that I believe to navigator completely [see above] but this source is written with knowledgable language [more detailed than of other memoires] and I don't see incorrectnesses at the moment, which is important. At least we should take it into consideration.

BP wrote:
but they are differ, even the worsest sources contain some good info the problem is how to find it.
Juha wrote: True.

Good! :wink:

Juha wrote:
There is only one correct time of the start of the raid.
The others are wrong, how much - that depends on the error.
Why there are so many variations of that "simple" case - I don't know

For sure, the start time is only one. I still think it was near 20.20 according to Kurban's navigator memoires and taking into consideration that Kurban's flight took-off as the first one [according to the best sources in my opinion]. 20.30 is quite close to it and was mentioned by pilots of another flight even. Zhigarev's 21.00 is "generalized" info [quite correct as the basic report, mentioning time, the amount of aircraft, etc.]. The error is not very significant here. Much more significant are the differences in sources about the same bomber that it was damaged by AA fire on the way to Berlin or back [Panfilov, Tyagunin], that emergency landing was made or crewmembers bailed out [Tyagunin], that crewmembers tried to reach Soviet positions by foot or defended their crashed bomber [Panfilov], and many others.....In these cases the error is small if you just want to prove that the bomber was lost during the raid and find the name of its pilot, but the error is very significant if you would like to know the details of the bomber/crewmembers fate during that raid.
PS. Inside the navigator's cabin of Pe-8 - http://allaces.ru/sssr/foto/ikonnik3.jpg

Juha wrote:
Panfilov ordered to drop the bombs and headed to north in order to get that way home

This seems quite possible taking into consideration several sources [bomber dropped bombs after it was seriously damaged by AA fire....]. But we discussed several possibilities, which is good for brain training :wink: IIRC you mentioned one time that, probably, Panfilov died during the flight before crash in Finland - why do you think so? I don't have any info about such fact. If the 2nd pilot (IIRC Arhipov?) bailed out [I also don't have such info but I believe you in this case :) ] some time after avoiding the Finnish search lights in dive the heavy bomber should be destroyed completely during "landing" without control and nobody survived [only having a narrow escape]. I assume that Panfilov controled the bomber during emergency landing but couldn't see the rock or lost the control because of stop of two engines and damages from AA artillery........

Regards, BP

PS. Top secret documents from 1941 -
1. Order of People's Commissar of Defense of USSR from 17 August 1941 [No. 0071] - "About results and disadvantages in the organization of air raid by 81st division on Berlin district" - I've already cited this order, it mentioned Panfilov as live person and awarded a citation to him and his crewmembers for personal participation in bombing Berlin [all other pilots, mentioned in the order, bombed Berlin area or German-occupied territory [Bidny] indeed and returned back, and Panfilov's case is very strange].
http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1 ... 84%96_0071

2. Order of People's Commissar of Defense of USSR from 15 July 1941 [No. 0052] - "About organization of 81st long-range air division". Two regiments of the division should be equipped with 15 TB-7 each [5 squadrons in each regiment] and with 10 fighters Yak-1 or LaGG-3 each [1 squadron in each regiment]. The division was organized just several weeks before the raid took place.
http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1 ... 84%96_0052

3. Resolution of State Defence Committee from 14 July 1941 [No. 143ss] - "About the long-range aviation". Pilots from civil polar aviation [including E. Pusep and A. Tyagunin] and from aircraft factory No. 22 [test-pilots, probably] were given to 81st division just several weeks before the raid took place.
http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0 ... 2_14.07.41
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 23 Jan 2007 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Jan 2007 16:14

There is the third good book about ANT-42/TB-7/Pe-8 -
"Flying fortress of Red Army Air Force - TB-7/Pe-8" by V. Rigmant - special issue of Russian journal "Aviation and Astronautics", May-June 2002, v. 81. IIRC http://www.airwar.ru (on-line article "TB-7 over Berlin in 1941" cites this source as the main one).

Image

PS1.
Juha wrote:
P.S. thanks for the additional info and the photo links.

OK :wink: Have you found the modern photo of remains of Pe-8 :( in Monino museum of Russian Air Force in one of my recent posts
PS2. Interesting photo [sorry for its small size] - building of ANT-42 [prototype of TB-7] at plant of experimental constructions of Central Institute of Aerohydrodynamics [TsAGI] - http://www.monino.ru/img/tupolev/glava6_6.jpg
PS3. Photos from Rigmant's book -
http://www.rpk-models.ru/images/magaz/a ... 0205_4.jpg [TB-7 with 4xAM-35 engines in summer 1941]
http://www.rpk-models.ru/images/magaz/a ... 0205_5.jpg [preparation to bombing raid, April 1942]
http://www.rpk-models.ru/images/magaz/a ... 0205_9.jpg [TB-7 No. 4211, damaged during landing; Shchelkovo airfield of Research Institute of Air Force, 30.04.1940]
http://www.svavia.ru/img/ant42.jpg [Pe-8 with airborne spray tanks VAP-1000]
PS4. Type in http://www.google.com search system [pick pictures not text] the following
site:66.111.103.15 Pe-8 and you can see the gunners turrets [tail, "undercarriage"] and passenger cabin interior of Pe-8 ON modification.
PS5. Soviet stamp from 1945 with heavy bomber Petlyakov-8 - http://www.aviatema.nm.ru/fil_sam/pics/ant42_2.JPG

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Jan 2007 22:20

BIGpanzer wrote:I always believe in quality over quantity but quantity is important for the most detailed analysis, and the result of analysis means quality
Quantity is needed if the quality is low.
BP wrote:What is the measure of quality of your two sources
From the two sources of the take -off time I have posted here, I better know the Finnish one, which sounds belivable, and by so far I haven't read anything that would change my opinion. About the other source of info I have posted, a link to the article from "Er-2 in the Great Patriotic War" by Alexander Medved & Dimitriy Hazanov: I haven't read the original book(?) (have you? how do you rate it?) , but from the basis of other material from them I've read, they sound quite trustworthy at this case.

BP wrote:some good Russian sources with the info about Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers, mentioned here
If you ment Stefanovsky, the both pieces of info I mentioned, are compared to Stefanovsky from a different planet.


BP wrote: Kurban's navigator memoires is the most detailed info about timetable and exact flight route we have at the moment. Did you find some mistakes there? I don't say that I believe to navigator completely [see above] but this source is written with knowledgable language [more detailed than of other memoires] and I don't see incorrectnesses at the moment, which is important. At least we should take it into consideration.
The "usual" TB-7/Pe-8 storm wind push effect to the cruise speed to a heavy loaded plane caught my eye at first.
Is any other plane that night mentioned flying the route that was mentioned there?


BP wrote: The error is not very significant here. Much more significant are the differences in sources about the same bomber that it was damaged by AA fire on the way to Berlin or back [Panfilov, Tyagunin], that emergency landing was made or crewmembers bailed out [Tyagunin], that crewmembers tried to reach Soviet positions by foot or defended their crashed bomber [Panfilov], and many others.....In these cases the error is small if you just want to prove that the bomber was lost during the raid and find the name of its pilot, but the error is very significant if you would like to know the details of the bomber/crewmembers fate during that raid.
Specially I agree with the part I emphased.
(at the Panfilov crew there is also a third option: the majority of the crew were caught before they could carry out neither of your mentioned acts)


BP wrote: [bomber dropped bombs after it was seriously damaged by AA fire....].
The sources I've read do not mention exact damages exept "oil" leak. Engines were mentioned to have stopped and caught fire over Finland.
BP wrote: IIRC you mentioned one time that, probably, Panfilov died during the flight before crash in Finland - why do you think so? I don't have any info about such fact
Juha earlier wrote:The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941, and the colour photos of that plane are from the same day.
As I have earlier posted, it has mentions that it got hit from Soviet AAA over Estonia before Berlin.
The book also mentions that before the crash the pilot died and the co-pilot baled out.
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150


.
BP wrote: If the 2nd pilot (IIRC Arhipov?) bailed out [I also don't have such info but I believe you in this case :) ] some time after avoiding the Finnish search lights in dive the heavy bomber should be destroyed completely during "landing" without control and nobody survived [only having a narrow escape].

Maksim Antipov (do you have different info? source?)
Juha earlier wrote: the co-pilot locked the controls to level flight, locked the cabin door and baled out
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105


BP wrote:I assume that Panfilov controled the bomber during emergency landing but couldn't see the rock or lost the control because of stop of two engines and damages from AA artillery........
At August 0210 hours it's dark in Finland and the plane crashed into a forrest, where happened also be a big rock.

Thanks for the additional info

Regards, Juha

P.S. Do you know the sources of the "Flying fortress of Red Army Air Force - TB-7/Pe-8" by V. Rigmant ?

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Post by BIGpanzer » 24 Jan 2007 00:54

Hi, Juha!
Juha wrote:
From the two sources of the take -off time I have posted here, I better know the Finnish one, which sounds belivable, and by so far I haven't read anything that would change my opinion. About the other source of info I have posted, a link to the article from "Er-2 in the Great Patriotic War" by Alexander Medved & Dimitriy Hazanov: I haven't read the original book(?) (have you? how do you rate it?) , but from the basis of other material from them I've read, they sound quite trustworthy at this case.

Many sources sound believable, but this is not a good measure of their correctness without cofirmations. I think that your source is quite good [because it describes the fate of only one bomber in details]. For sure, all good sources I could find give much more info about that raid than your single source, but they didn't describe the fate of Panfilov's bomber and crewmembers in details [mentioning that the bomber was damaged by German or Soviet AAA [different info], headed to Finland and made emergency landing/crashed here, survived crewmembers were captured by Finns] - in principle, this is quite similar to your info [the main difference between sources I found - by which AAA the bomber was damaged and when - on the way to Berlin or back - at the moment I think that Panfilov's bomber was damaged on the way to Berlin, but I am not sure was it damaged by Soviet AAA over Estonia or German AAA over German-occupied territory/Germany]. I offer to stop our interesting discussion here until we finnd some another sources, otherwise - this is a waste of time in my opinion. You don't have any additional sources to prove your info [which is good but anyway] - at least the time of crash. As your opinion - I agree with the high possibility of such events, as many Russian sources I could find support this to some degree [others - not, nevertheless], so you don't need to change your opinion at the moment :wink:
As for the article "Er-2 in the Great Patriotic War" by Alexander Medved & Dimitriy Hazanov - I rate it as very good source [the full on-line article could be found on http://www.airwar.ru, I provided the link already], the problem is that another very good source "TB-7 over Berlin in 1941" [also could be found on http://www.airwar.ru] gives identical info about one TB-7s, and differ - about another. And both differences could be proved by differ memoires :roll: So this is hard...Also, how you can explain that People's Commissar of Defense mentioned Panfilov in his order? [see above]. As I've already mentioned - this seems to be very important [he could avoid to mention Panfilov's name without any problems] but you pay no attention to this info.

Juha wrote:
BP wrote: some good Russian sources with the info about Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers, mentioned here
If you ment Stefanovsky, the both pieces of info I mentioned, are compared to Stefanovsky from a different planet.

No, I don't mention Stefanovsky [very differ from your source because of description of combat between crewmembers and Finnish soldiers according to memoires of single survivor - gunner Krysin], Stefanovsky didn't mention Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers [except Panfilov and Krysin]. You read my posts not very carefully - I've already mentioned that I don't think that Stefanovsky's info [based on memoires of Krysin] is correct here because almost all other sources say that crewmembers were captured by Finns on the way to front line:( , I mentioned the article here -
http://www.geraldika.org/04_2006_13.htm [on-line journal "Almanah-MARS" of Academy of Russian Heraldry, 2006, author - colonel Mitrinyuk, senior researcher of Central museum of Russian army]. By the way, I found there also the quite detailed info about Panfilov's bomber here [Mitrinyuk mentioned the place name Lapinjärvi and exact names of died crewmembers, which were burried by Finnish civilians].
You really don't read the posts carefully......But this quite detailed article of senior researcher Mitrinyuk[the only on Russian which mentions Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers] mentioned that Panfilov's bomber was damaged by AAA on the way back [differ sources give differ info] and only Krysin survived [I don't believe to this fact as article doesn't mention the names and fates of other four crewmembers, six were burried, also many other sources [except Stefanovsky and IIRC two others] mention that survivors were captured].

Juha wrote:
The "usual" TB-7/Pe-8 storm wind push effect to the cruise speed to a heavy loaded plane caught my eye at first.
Is any other plane that night mentioned flying the route that was mentioned there?

The wind is not "usual" for TB-7 as it was mentioned only by Pusep [flight from USA to Moscow] - as for the memoires of Kurban navigator, this is my supposition [he mentioned the ground speed 380 km/h but TB-7 with M-40F had maximal speed 393 km/h]. But the weather over Baltic is not stable often, this is a fact. 380 km/h is possible speed for heavy loaded TB-7 in the case of strong back wind which could add 40-60 km/h without any problems. My eye were caught by much more interesting data - exact timetable and exact courses, which you didn't notice, probably :wink: ! The route seems to be very truthful [especially after comparison with other sources, which give not so detailed info, also with the route of DB-3Fs from Oesel/Saaremaa]. As for other aircraft - no, I don't have such detailed info, that is why I value it a lot at the moment.

Juha wrote:
at the Panfilov crew there is also a third option: the majority of the crew were caught before they could carry out neither of your mentioned acts

By so far I haven't read anything that would change my opinion :) - I think that survivors were captured during their way to Soviet positions, quite far away from the crash place.

Juha wrote:
The sources I've read do not mention exact damages exept "oil" leak. Engines were mentioned to have stopped and caught fire over Finland.

Agree, engine oil [why in quotes?] leakage is mentioned by many sources, describing the Panfilov's flight - very probably, that was happened because of AA fire [still not absolutely sure where - over Soviet Estonia or German-occupied territory?]. Diesels M-40F were stopped because of oil shortage. Quite many sources mention that TB-7 was headed towards Finland only after stop of two engines [because pilots understood that they had no possibility to reach Soviet territory on two engines].

Juha wrote:
The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941, and the colour photos of that plane are from the same day.
As I have earlier posted, it has mentions that it got hit from Soviet AAA over Estonia before Berlin.
The book also mentions that before the crash the pilot died and the co-pilot baled out.

These are the moments which will be neceaasry to prove by additional sources [I don't believe for 100% to the single source, because it is possible ta take as single source also Stefanovsky's book, for example]. I can agree with you, but I need additional confirmations [in principle, the only thing I was in doubt from the very beginning - which AAA [Soviet or German] and when [on the way to Berlin or on the way back] damaged that TB-7, as for additional info - I agree with your source, but expressions as "plane of unknown type" or "some another unit" seem strange and not add the sense of truth to yopu source I need to say].
I am just curious - who detected the exact crash time [were there Finns nearby? Hard to believe that gunners detected time during strong crash, they thought how to survive in catastrophe only], who saw the death of Panfilov? [if co-pilot bailed and closed the door according to you! As for the door, I've already mentioned - try to check blue-prints, this was quite hard to do - flight engineer, radio operator and upper turret gunner had access to the door also]. If Panfilov died before crash - that means that he was wounded, so damages were stronger than just "oil leak". As for me - I would say that according to all info here [from you and from me] I don't know the exact crash time of Panfilov's bomber [probably, 02.10] which means that I don't know exactly when the bomber was hit - on the way to Berlin or back, I don't know where the plane got hit [from Soviet AAA over Estonia of from German AAA] and I absolutely not sure that Panfilov died in flight [probably, he was killed during the crash/emergency landing]. As for 2nd pilot M. Antipov - I don't have any source about him [I only know that he was awarded by Red Banner order for Winter war - see the source about Panfilov in my present post], but I believe to your info [he bailed out] as his body was not found in crashed bomber and Russian sources don't mention his name among crewmembers buried by Finnish civilians.

Juha wrote:
Do you know the sources of the "Flying fortress of Red Army Air Force - TB-7/Pe-8" by V. Rigmant ?

As I don't have this book how can I know the sources of it?!

Regards, BP
PS. See your e-mail box [there is some interesting info about TB-7/Pe-8 inside :wink: ]

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Post by BIGpanzer » 26 Jan 2007 17:41

As I've already mentioned to Juha by e-mail, I could find the book by Rigmant.
Here are several fragments from it about the problems with M-40F diesels and "landings" of several TB-7/Pe-8 [I've already described those facts ahortly above].

During the night 6-7 November 1941 TB-7 No. 42025 of Pusep performed the bombing raid against Danzig from Kovrovo airfield [Vladimir region, 260 km from Moscow to the east]. The main target [Danzig power plant] was successfully destroyed. On the way back the crew was lost because of navigation mistake and bad snowy weather and Pusep ordered to get down and to correct the course with the help of land marks. Their TB-7 was immediately attacked by German strong ground AA fire. Fourth diesel was damaged and caught fire, all attempts to fight a fire were unsuccessful and Pusep ordered to bail out. Pusep switched off all engines and set autopilot to the gliding flight, then he bailed out also.
But engine extincted and abandoned TB-7 landed itself on bog near Kashino [Kalinin/Tver region, Tver locates 170 km from Moscow to the north-west], so natives called and reported about this mysterious case to administration. Divisional commander Lebedev sent mechanics to the "landing" place, they repaired the bomber [only right wing and engine radiators were damaged during "landing"]. TB-7 was returned back to the home airfield and participated in further raids. Pusep got admonish and it was ordered not to bail out but to try to fight a fire as much as possible at first [it should be noted that every flight of heavy bombers TB-7 was controlled by Stalin personally and he paid big attention to his strategical bombers].

Similar case happened with TB-7 No. 4212 of K. Egorov in January 1942. The crew also made a navigation mistake on the way back and ran out of fuel. Egorov made emergency landing on forest in the east of Kirov region [Kirov locates more than 700 km from Moscow to the east!] instead of home airfield Kovrovo. Pilot Egorov came to design office in Kazan and asked engineers to arrive to the crash place and repair/evacuate the bomber. Egorov's TB-7 was heavily damaged during emergency landing on forest - one half-wing and landing gear were completelly destroyed, but factory engineers could repair the bomber till spring 1942 when aircraft made the return flight to home airfield.

One more case was not so fortunate. Factory test-pilot Ludwig Nemet (Hungarian by nationality) and his crew performed factory tests of new TB-7 No. 42056 with diesels on 13th November, 1941. The second engine began to joggle after 3 hours of flight, then it catched fire and smoke spreaded inside the cabin, when the small door to the half-wing was opened, flight engineer saw the open fire from the engine inside the 2nd "undercarriage" gun turret. Nemet ordered to switch off the fuel system but that didn't help and fire began to spread inside the cabin and fuselage. Nemet ordered to bail out, five crewmembers could do this successfully from the altituide near 5000 m. Nemet tried to control the falling burning bomber and landed as he knew about the order after Pusep's case [see above]. When completely burning TB-7 began to fall to pieces, Nemet bailed out from the altitude 600 m only, his body and parachute caught fire and Nemet died, several crewmembers couldn't bail out and died during the crash. But factory military representative Grigorenko [he was in the tail cabin] survived fortunately and got only several small wounds. The detailed investigation of the catastrophe discovered that engine shaft of second diesel was damaged because of insufficient oil and that caused break of one of the crankshaft connecting rods and destruction of engine in flight. Chief engineer of TB-7 I. Nezval reported about unreliable diesels again, so that was additional reason to produce heavy bombers with much more better gasoline engines and reequip diesel bombers with them also. That was the first air catastrophe during the history of Kazan aircraft factory No.124

PS. TB-7 with much more reliable AM-35A gasoline engines had lesser flight range than diesel heavy bombers, so the last ones were still in use for long-range [up to 15 hours flights] bombing raids against Germany from Kovrovo airfield. But the production of TB-7 with M-40F and M-30 diesels was almost stopped in the end 1941. The bombers with M-40/M-30 diesels [most numerous TB-7 in the beg1942] were replaced by bombers with AM-35A gasoline engines during 1942. In 1943-44 (the period of most intensive use of heavy bombers) Pe-8s were produced with gasoline engines M-82, because the production of AM-35A engines were replaced by production of AM-38 engines for battle-planes Il-2]. The first long-range test-flight of Pe-8 with engines M-82 was performed in October 1942 - bomber started the raid from Kazan airfield, dropped 2 t of bombs neat Tashkent [Central Asia] and successfully returned back - the flight range was 5800 km with 2 t of bombs and cruise speed 300 km/h. Pe-8 with M-82 had 20% lesser takeoff run and better flight range [4400 km with 3 t of bombs] than Pe-8 with AM-35A. Engines M-82(ASh-82) were more resistant to combat damages and their technical problems were almost solved during the series production because of close relations between design office in Kazan and 45th long-range air division. Also diesel designer Charomsky improved the construction of his diesels, and the last Pe-8 [passenger modification] were produced also with diesels ACh-30B (M-30B) in 1944.
PS2. Test-pilot of 3rd class Ludwig Nemet [1897-1941], he was a Hungarian mechanic and served as soldier in Austro-Hungarian army during WWI. Served as army pilot in USSR since 1924 [graduated high school of military aviators in Borisoglebsk], as test-pilot of Kazan aircraft factory No.124 - since 1935.
http://www.testpilot.ru/memo/40/img/120/nemet.jpg

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 26 Jan 2007 23:29

Hi,

Sorry for the delay, I have been checking for the details from Panfilov crew.
I "found" some new (actually old) info about it, and when I know in what form it can be published, it will be possible for you too to read it.too.

BIGpanzer wrote: You don't have any additional sources to prove your info
What is your source about that claim?




BP wrote:Also, how you can explain that People's Commissar of Defense mentioned Panfilov in his order?
Maybe he did it according to the info he was fed.

BP wrote: you pay no attention to this info.
Juha earlier wrote:
BP earlier wrote:

Much more strange is the order of People's Commissar of Defense [see above] - he mentioned Panfilov among the pilots, who could reach Berlin or bomb German-occupied territory at least [Bidny, for example], and Commissar of Defense didn't mention another TB-7 and Er-2 pilots, participated in the raid. As that order dated 17th August 1941 [when Vodopianov and his crewmembers, including Puusepp, reached Soviet positions, so the info about them was reported to HQ already and, of course, mentioned in the order],the most interesting part is Panfilov - why his name was mentioned in the order also, probably, HQ received some info about him between 12-17th August. But we don't know what kind of info was it. I know that you don't believe that Panfilov's crewmembers participated in combat with Finnish soldiers during several days near crashed TB-7 [I also think that the fact they were captured on the way to Soviet positions is much more possible], but, probably, Panfilov made something important which gave him a chance to be mentioned in the order, but what? That was a very serious document, not memoires, articles, etc., so should be the reason.

emphasis on mine.
The only source of Panfilov bombing Berlin or not was Panfilov and his crew.
And as they being MIA (POW), no-one in USSR could rebut any claims about his sortie.
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:
BP wrote: some good Russian sources with the info about Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers, mentioned here

If you ment Stefanovsky, the both pieces of info I mentioned, are compared to Stefanovsky from a different planet.

No, I don't mention Stefanovsky [very differ from your source because of description of combat between crewmembers and Finnish soldiers according to memoires of single survivor - gunner Krysin], Stefanovsky didn't mention Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers [except Panfilov and Krysin]. You read my posts not very carefully
Actually I read your posts more carefull than you write:

BP wrote: I've already mentioned that I don't think that Stefanovsky's info [based on memoires of Krysin] is correct here because almost all other sources say that crewmembers were captured by Finns on the way to front line:( , I mentioned the article here -
http://www.geraldika.org/04_2006_13.htm [on-line journal "Almanah-MARS" of Academy of Russian Heraldry, 2006, author - colonel Mitrinyuk, senior researcher of Central museum of Russian army]. By the way, I found there also the quite detailed info about Panfilov's bomber here [Mitrinyuk mentioned the place name Lapinjärvi and exact names of died crewmembers, which were burried by Finnish civilians].
Of course.
I just was looking for other your sources, as you posted:
BP wrote:some good Russian sources
my underlining

BP wrote:You really don't read the posts carefully......
As above.


BP wrote:
Juha wrote:The "usual" TB-7/Pe-8 storm wind push effect to the cruise speed to a heavy loaded plane caught my eye at first.
Is any other plane that night mentioned flying the route that was mentioned there?

The wind is not "usual" for TB-7 as it was mentioned only by Pusep [flight from USA to Moscow] - as for the memoires of Kurban navigator, this is my supposition [he mentioned the ground speed 380 km/h but TB-7 with M-40F had maximal speed 393 km/h]. But the weather over Baltic is not stable often, this is a fact. 380 km/h is possible speed for heavy loaded TB-7 in the case of strong back wind which could add 40-60 km/h without any problems. My eye were caught by much more interesting data - exact timetable and exact courses, which you didn't notice, probably :wink: ! The route seems to be very truthful [especially after comparison with other sources, which give not so detailed info, also with the route of DB-3Fs from Oesel/Saaremaa]. As for other aircraft - no, I don't have such detailed info, that is why I value it a lot at the moment.
Do you have any additional sources to back up the Kurban navigator stories about the 380km/h speed, exact courses, route etc, so that you could really start to believe in it?
See below:
BP wrote:These are the moments which will be neceaasry to prove by additional sources [I don't believe for 100% to the single source, because it is possible ta take as single source also Stefanovsky's book, for example]


BP wrote: I think that survivors were captured during their way to Soviet positions, quite far away from the crash place.
Can you then name the place they were captured?

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:The sources I've read do not mention exact damages exept "oil" leak. Engines were mentioned to have stopped and caught fire over Finland.

Agree, engine oil [why in quotes?] leakage is mentioned by many sources, describing the Panfilov's flight - very probably, that was happened
"Oil", because that's how I've sen it mentioned. I don't know is it lubrication oil or diesel oil.





BP wrote:I am just curious - who detected the exact crash time [were there Finns nearby?
During WWII Finland had aquite dense (ca. 650 sites) air surveillance network. There were surveillance sites (mainly towers) all over the country, the most dence at the southern and eastern part of the country. I'm not 100% sure, but an educated guess would be that at the Panfilov route in Finland thee was an air surveillance site at every 10-20km (approx).
Also the crash site was quite near of the populated area.
Image Air surveillance tower
http://www.rintamanaistenliitto.com/gal ... kuva=kuva9



BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Do you know the sources of the "Flying fortress of Red Army Air Force - TB-7/Pe-8" by V. Rigmant ?

As I don't have this book how can I know the sources of it?!
As I didn't know that, was the reason I asked about it.
BP later wrote:As I've already mentioned to Juha by e-mail, I could find the book by Rigmant.
Can you now answer us?



BP wrote: See your e-mail box [there is some interesting info about TB-7/Pe-8 inside :wink: ]
Thank you about the info.

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Jan 2007 00:19

Juha, the majority of forums prevent over-quoting, this is quite bad habit :? Especially, taking into consideration that you mistake quite often :wink:

Thanks for the promised additional info about Panfilov's TB-7, this will be interesting! By the way, is the info from Stefanovsky's book about gunner sergeant Krysin from Panfilov's crew that he worked till the end of the war at Finnish farm under the prison guard correct [that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]? Until now I see that you use only one source [Finnish auto journal] about time of crash of Panfilov's bomber [your inscription above the photo of TB-7 wrecks] that is why I claimed that you need to prove the crash time of Panfilov's bomber with additional sources [by the way, does the history book about Lapinjärvi mention crash time or not?]. This is very important to understand was his bomber damaged over Estonia or Germany, and, especially, on the way to Berlin [more possible] or back.
As for the order of People's Commissar of Defense from 17.08.1941 - I believe that this is not so easy as you think carelessly to some degree, probably, some important but unknown info about Panfilov exists and was reported to Commissar.....

Of course, I don't agree with your overproud letter that you read my letters more carefully than I write. In reality the things go vice versa. Even in the letter above :lol: Except article by Mitrinyuk describing exact crash place [Lapinjärvi] and the names of died crewmembers, I gave the info about one more source at least, but you didn't notice it as usual [nevertheless, you didn't forget to quote that I mentioned some sources :lol: ]. An excellent example that you really don't read posts carefully, just look better. Also good examples are my recent posts [no answers on my questions (one of the last one is about modern photo of the wrecks of Pe-8 - have you seen it....) or two requests to remove your off-topic image]

I don't know the exact name of the place where Panfilov's crewmembers were captured, no such info in the sources I could find at the moment. And you didn't provide us with such info, too. This is very strange, hard to believe that Finns didn't know where the crewmembers were captured by them.......

As for the five sources from the book by Rigmant [describing the development, series production and design of TB-7/Pe-8 in great details and with a lot of excellent blue-prints/photos but devoting much less attention to the war use of that bomber] - as I've sent the exact page and its translation on your e-mail, you could post them by yourself. IIRC those were official year reports of factory design office for 1944-45 and memoires of chief designer Nezval, also another documents from design office.
From my e-mail to you:
1) site http://www.airwar.ru mentions completely identical info (see the page 36 from the Rigmant book) - my translation [without any my notes, just direct translation] about Panfilov's TB-7 from this book: aircraft TB-7 No. 42046 (commander - senior lieutenant A.I. Panfilov) was shelled by anti-aircraft artillery over Germany, aircraft got serious damages. The crew dropped bombs and set back course. Then two M-40F were stopped because of oil shortage and aircraft led for emergency landing to Finland. Five men were killed during landing, others went towards Soviet front line. Near the front line they were captured by Finns.
That was almost similar info to my which I posted at first in the thread. If you prefer printed sources - here it is :)
2) The used sources from the book - only five are given [see page 81 from the Rigmant book] - official report about the tests of passenger Pe-8 ON, year report of the experimental design office of aircraft factory No. 22 for the year 1945, year report of Nezval's design office of aircraft factory No. 22 for the year 1944, memoires of Nezval about work in Tupolev's design office and work in Kazan, documentary history of aircraft ANT-42 from the museum of design office in the name of Tupolev.

Reference: V. Rigmant "Flying fortress of Red Army Air Force - bomber TB-7/Pe-8" - journal "Aviation and Cosmonautics", May-June 2002 (issue 82), Moscow, 83 pages. On Russian.

PS. As I have no time [and to say the truth, also any big wish because of your quite unfriendly and senseless attitude here in my opinion] to scan for you the interesting pages from Maslov's and Ungern's books you are interested in, I need to say that, probably, I can do this much later only. But you can order them using Internet book shops and credit card without any problems as I did.

PS2. I wrote earlier:
who saw the death of Panfilov? [if co-pilot bailed and closed the door according to you! As for the door, I've already mentioned - try to check blue-prints, this was quite hard to do - flight engineer, radio operator and upper turret gunner had access to the door also]. If Panfilov died before crash - that means that he was wounded, so damages were stronger than just "oil leak"


PS3. Short info about Panfilov's TB-7 from Czech site: http://www.valka.cz/newdesign/v900/clanek_11090.html [Early Soviet raids against Berlin] - first lieutenant Alexander I. Panfilov strayed during the return flight, got over Finland where his bomber was shot down near Helsinki. Two survived crewmembers finished the war as Finnish POW. Seems to be that the info is mixed up a lot from many sources :lol:

BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 27 Jan 2007 23:05, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Jan 2007 18:13

Personally to Juha!
I made excellent job last night [as always, of course :wink: ]. I suppose that you will not value it as always, but I don't worry about this at all. Obviously, that I could collect almost all known info about Panfilov's case here and took into consideration your info also. And, of course, to analyze this info. The sources which mention that Panfilov's bomber was knocked down by AA artillery on the way back make a mistake as I could find several better sources after them.

This night I found exact timetable:

I. Real take-off time of TB-7s from Pushkino airfield - one by one
major Kurban - 20.52
senior lieutenant Peregudov - ?
captain Tyagunin - 21.03
kombrig Vodopianov - 21.05
lieutenant Bidny - 21.50
major Ugryumov - 21.58
senior lieutenant Panfilov - 22.00
Source: flight information service unit's report of Pushkino airfield, 10.08.1941

Kurban's flight time table - take-off 20.52.35", line between Liepaja and Gottland 22.50, island Rügen - 23.50, confluence of Oder and Warta - 00.30 [compare with Kurban's navigator notes above, by the way], no time data between, landing in Ropsha - 05.30. Source: report of pilot Kurban to divisional HQ after flight.

The most detailed info about Panfilov's bomber I could find last night [Juha, I provide you with this source for sure but later, also I found one additional photo of that TB-7 No. 42026, made in Lapinjärvi!].
!Panfilov's TB-7 took off as the last one, 22.00. During the flight - speed 380 km/h [note again! - very probably, the effect of back wind - BP, altitude 6500 m]. The bomber was catched by searchlights and shelled by AA artillery during the 3rd hour of flight [very probably, bomber was damaged not by Soviet AAA over Oesel/Saaremaa as you supposed but by German AAA near Liepaja - see the speed and route, BP], oil system was damaged and oil spreaded into right "undercarriage" gun turret of gunner Kirillov, he reported to Panfilov about that by telephone. Panfilov answered "Be careful, avoid the oil invasion into oxygen equipment otherwise the explosion occur!". Also Panfilov ordered to drop bombs because of significant damages on board. Then the bomber turned to the back course. The bombs were dropped and bomber started the return flight to home airfield. Soon one engine [1st right] caught fire and was stopped, and in 20-30 min - the second one [2nd right] was stopped. Bomber began got down and turned, it was almost impossible to control it. Bomber made emergency landing in Lapinjärvi forest [~100 km north-east from Helsinki], the crash time was 02.03. Pilot Panfilov, probably, died in flight as his body was completelly cold after crash [no info about the reason - wounds or damage of oxygen equipment? - BP] and fire occured after crash of the bomber. The front part of the bomber including central gun turret burnt, but tail part of fuselage was not damaged strongly [Also see Mobilisti, 1989]. Several crewmembers could get out from the wrecks. They were co-pilot Antipov [absolutely no info that he bailed out, so in large doubt - BP], gunners Kirillov, Sharlikov, sub-lieutenant Kizilov and Krysin, they were captured by Finns. Bodies of 1st pilot Panfilov, navigator Boloboshko, flight engineer Gainutdinov, assistant of flight engineer Tyushkin, nose turret gunner Shatrov and radio operator Stepanevsky [all my previous sources gave the name Stanevsky - BP] were buried by two Finnish civilians - brothers Tiko and Haalmar Blomkrist. Only two crewmembers could return back to USSR after WWII [three others were missing, no info about them, how it is possible? - BP]. Gunner sergeant Krysin [who lived in Tula till 1990s at least] made two reports to press (newspaper "Pravda") in 1982 [but famous test-pilot Stefanovsky wrote about the talk with Krysin in his book "300 unknowns", published in 1968 - BP], and this is the info from those two reports I could find yesterday with the e-mail help of my Russian friend [so Stefanovsky wrote "additional" info about combat in his book or Krysin told the full truth in 1982 only]. Interesting, that such info appeared in the main Soviet newspaper 14 years before it was published in Finnish auto journal :wink:

Regards, BP

PS. Me seems that our best sources - my [article by colonel Mitrinyuk and report of Kurban's navigator - which is correct, see above, especially course description] and your ["Mobilisti"] come in quite good agreement taking into consideration the detailed info from sergeant Krysin.

PS2. I also found the additional info about Pe-8 No.421010 [1st pilot - Ugryumov, navigator - Legkostup, all crewmembers were missing officially] which was knocked down over Helsinki during the bombing raid 27.02.1944 [have you no info about that bomber yet?] - the bomber was damaged by Finnish AA fire over target and soon attacked by German night fighter [see the info somewhere above here]. Interesting, that as it always happened during the war from both sides - Helsinki Staffel claimed that 3 Pe-8 were knocked down during the night 26-27.02.1944 but in reality only one [No. 421010] was lost.

PS3. Also I found the additional info that two FAB-5000 bombs, dropped from two Pe-8 07.02.1944 over Helsinki, exploded indeed [but, probably, they didn't hit the target - BP, no exact info. Officially it was reported that bombs exploded at cable works and railroad workshops of Helsinki]. The following bombs were dropped over/near Helsinki from 15 Pe-8s during the raid 07.02.1944 [flight altitude - 6500-7300 m] - 2xFAB-5000, 8xFAB-2000, 4xFAB-1000, 22xFAB-500, 22xFAB-250 [all high-explosive bombs], 11xZAB-100 [fire bombs], 2xSAB-100 [photoflash bombs]. FAB-5000 were dropped from Pe-8 of Ishchenko [altitude 5250 m, 11th heavy bomber which attacked the target, bomb was dropped on 21.33] and Pe-8 of Shamrai [altitude 5000 m, 15th/last heavy bomber which attacked the target, bomb was dropped on 21.54].

PS4. My Russian friend wrote me that Russian enthusiasts of WWII aviation don't like Rigmant's book because of quite many mistakes were taken from other sources [fates of bombers and their factory numbers, history of the development of ANT-42, etc.] and Russian guys value much more the books by Maslov and Unger.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Jan 2007 00:12

BIGpanzer wrote:Juha, the majority of forums prevent over-quoting, this is quite bad habit
It's the easiest way to stay aware of your opinion developments.
BP wrote: By the way, is the info from Stefanovsky's book about gunner sergeant Krysin from Panfilov's crew that he worked till the end of the war at Finnish farm under the prison guard correct [that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]?
Don't know, I haven't read the book.
From what I know, the the POWs at farm work were often not guarded at all.

BP wrote:Until now I see that you use only one source [Finnish auto journal] about time of crash of Panfilov's bomber [your inscription above the photo of TB-7 wrecks]
No.
Juha earlier wrote:The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150

BP wrote:that is why I claimed that you need to prove the crash time of Panfilov's bomber with additional sources [by the way, does the history book about Lapinjärvi mention crash time or not?]. This is very important to understand was his bomber damaged over Estonia or Germany, and, especially, on the way to Berlin [more possible] or back.
See above




BP wrote:Of course, I don't agree with your overproud letter that you read my letters more carefully than I write. In reality the things go vice versa. Even in the letter above :lol: Except article by Mitrinyuk describing exact crash place [Lapinjärvi] and the names of died crewmembers, I gave the info about one more source at least, but you didn't notice it as usual [nevertheless, you didn't forget to quote that I mentioned some sources
Actually not "some sources" but:
BP wrote:What is the measure of quality of your two sources [remind me, what is the second one Wink ]? The auto journal is quite good source not worser in details about Panfilov's TB-7 then some good Russian sources with the info about Lapinjärvi and names of crewmembers, mentioned here. If mentioning excellent photos - even better.
emphasing and underling by me viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210


BP wrote:I don't know the exact name of the place where Panfilov's crewmembers were captured, no such info in the sources I could find at the moment. And you didn't provide us with such info, too. This is very strange, hard to believe that Finns didn't know where the crewmembers were captured by them....... .
Of course "the Finns" knew where they captured the crew. Antipov was captured (as mentioned before) at Ruotsinpyhtää viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150 and the rest of the crew AFAIK at Lapinjärvi.

BP wrote:As for the five sources from the book by Rigmant [describing the development, series production and design of TB-7/Pe-8 in great details and with a lot of excellent blue-prints/photos but devoting much less attention to the war use of that bomber] - as I've sent the exact page and its translation on your e-mail, you could post them by yourself. IIRC those were official year reports of factory design office for 1944-45 and memoires of chief designer Nezval, also another documents from design office.
How credible you rate the Rigamant book from the historical point of view?
BP wrote:From my e-mail to you:
1) site http://www.airwar.ru mentions completely identical info (see the page 36 from the Rigmant book) - my translation [without any my notes, just direct translation] about Panfilov's TB-7 from this book: aircraft TB-7 No. 42046 (commander - senior lieutenant A.I. Panfilov) was shelled by anti-aircraft artillery over Germany, aircraft got serious damages. The crew dropped bombs and set back course. Then two M-40F were stopped because of oil shortage and aircraft led for emergency landing to Finland. Five men were killed during landing, others went towards Soviet front line. Near the front line they were captured by Finns.
That was Of course "the Finns" knew where they captured the crew. If you prefer printed sources - here it is :)
As above


BP wrote:
2) The used sources from the book - only five are given [see page 81 from the Rigmant book] - official report about the tests of passenger Pe-8 ON, year report of the experimental design office of aircraft factory No. 22 for the year 1945, year report of Nezval's design office of aircraft factory No. 22 for the year 1944, memoires of Nezval about work in Tupolev's design office and work in Kazan, documentary history of aircraft ANT-42 from the museum of design office in the name of Tupolev.

Reference: V. Rigmant "Flying fortress of Red Army Air Force - bomber TB-7/Pe-8" - journal "Aviation and Cosmonautics", May-June 2002 (issue 82), Moscow, 83 pages. On Russian.
Any of them about raid of Berlin (Panfilov) ?

BP wrote:PS. As I have no time [and to say the truth, also any big wish because of your quite unfriendly and senseless attitude here in my opinion] to scan for you the interesting pages from Maslov's and Ungern's books you are interested in, I need to say that, probably, I can do this much later only. But you can order them using Internet book shops and credit card without any problems as I did.
I'm not interested at the scans, but the info from the books you have mentioned you have, and we have been waiting for (too) long.

BP wrote:PS2. I wrote earlier:
who saw the death of Panfilov?
Don't know...perhaps nobody
BP wrote: If Panfilov died before crash - that means that he was wounded, so damages were stronger than just "oil leak"
even a small splinter may cause oil or blood to leake.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Jan 2007 01:22

BIGpanzer wrote:Personally to Juha!
I made excellent job last night [as always, of course :wink: ]. I suppose that you will not value it as always, but I don't worry about this at all. Obviously, that I could collect almost all known info about Panfilov's case here and took into consideration your info also. And, of course, to analyze this info.
Of course I value that.
And from my point of view...Persistence pays off , doesn't it ?
Again.


BP wrote:The sources which mention that Panfilov's bomber was knocked down by AA artillery on the way back make a mistake as I could find several better sources after them.
As above.

BP wrote:This night I found exact timetable:

I. Real take-off time of TB-7s from Pushkino airfield - one by one
major Kurban - 20.52
senior lieutenant Peregudov - ?
captain Tyagunin - 21.03
kombrig Vodopianov - 21.05
lieutenant Bidny - 21.50
major Ugryumov - 21.58
senior lieutenant Panfilov - 22.00
Source: flight information service unit's report of Pushkino airfield, 10.08.1941
sounds believable



BP wrote:The most detailed info about Panfilov's bomber I could find last night [Juha, I provide you with this source for sure but later, also I found one additional photo of that TB-7 No. 42026, made in Lapinjärvi!].
!Panfilov's TB-7 took off as the last one, 22.00. During the flight - speed 380 km/h [note again! - very probably, the effect of back wind - BP, altitude 6500 m]. The bomber was catched by searchlights and shelled by AA artillery during the 3rd hour of flight [very probably, bomber was damaged not by Soviet AAA over Oesel/Saaremaa as you supposed but by German AAA near Liepaja - see the speed and route, BP], oil system was damaged and oil spreaded into right "undercarriage" gun turret of gunner Kirillov, he reported to Panfilov about that by telephone. Panfilov answered "Be careful, avoid the oil invasion into oxygen equipment otherwise the explosion occur!". Also Panfilov ordered to drop bombs because of significant damages on board. Then the bomber turned to the back course. The bombs were dropped and bomber started the return flight to home airfield. Soon one engine [1st right] caught fire and was stopped, and in 20-30 min - the second one [2nd right] was stopped. Bomber began got down and turned, it was almost impossible to control it. Bomber made emergency landing in Lapinjärvi forest [~100 km north-east from Helsinki], the crash time was 02.03. Pilot Panfilov, probably, died in flight as his body was completelly cold after crash [no info about the reason - wounds or damage of oxygen equipment? - BP] and fire occured after crash of the bomber. The front part of the bomber including central gun turret burnt, but tail part of fuselage was not damaged strongly [Also see Mobilisti, 1989]. Several crewmembers could get out from the wrecks. They were co-pilot Antipov [absolutely no info that he bailed out, so in large doubt - BP], gunners Kirillov, Sharlikov, sub-lieutenant Kizilov and Krysin, they were captured by Finns. Bodies of 1st pilot Panfilov, navigator Boloboshko, flight engineer Gainutdinov, assistant of flight engineer Tyushkin, nose turret gunner Shatrov and radio operator Stepanevsky [all my previous sources gave the name Stanevsky - BP] were buried by two Finnish civilians - brothers Tiko and Haalmar Blomkrist.
Nice back-up info for the "Finnish Auto-magazine".
If the flight time of Panfilov plane was from ~2200 hours to ~0200 hours (and accordind to your calculations it got hit from the German AAA over Liepaja) (why would it be over there?) what would have been the timetable?
Also - Tyko and Hjalmar Blomqvist, according to the Finnish auto-magazine 4/89



BP wrote: Only two crewmembers could return back to USSR after WWII [three others were missing, no info about them, how it is possible? - BP].
Juha earlier wrote:If they didn't return to USSR after the war, there are several options:
- he died during the war in Finland
-he were send to Germany (Finland had an exhange program with Germany during the war: we got Fenno-Ugric POW's from German camps inexhange of our Soviet POW:s)
-he co-operated with Finns and fled to West after the war. ( a personal memory from the past v.....ht=#333828 (also scroll down a bit)

viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

BP wrote:Gunner sergeant Krysin [who lived in Tula till 1990s at least] made two reports to press (newspaper "Pravda") in 1982 [but famous test-pilot Stefanovsky wrote about the talk with Krysin in his book "300 unknowns", published in 1968 - BP], and this is the info from those two reports I could find yesterday with the e-mail help of my Russian friend [so Stefanovsky wrote "additional" info about combat in his book or Krysin told the full truth in 1982 only]. Interesting, that such info appeared in the main Soviet newspaper 14 years before it was published in Finnish auto journal
Hmmm...as 'm not very good at maths... but from 1982 to 1989 isn't that much.



BP wrote:PS. Me seems that our best sources - my [article by colonel Mitrinyuk and report of Kurban's navigator - which is correct, see above, especially course description] and your ["Mobilisti"] come in quite good agreement taking into consideration the detailed info from sergeant Krysin.
Me seems that "a Finnish "auto-magazine" has been superrior, and Mitrinyuk just giving the names (from a Finnish memorial?) has been at right traces there,

BP wrote:PS2. I also found the additional info about Pe-8 No.421010 [1st pilot - Ugryumov, navigator - Legkostup, all crewmembers were missing officially] which was knocked down over Helsinki during the bombing raid 27.02.1944 [have you no info about that bomber yet?] - the bomber was damaged by Finnish AA fire over target and soon attacked by German night fighter [see the info somewhere above here]. Interesting, that as it always happened during the war from both sides - Helsinki Staffel claimed that 3 Pe-8 were knocked down during the night 26-27.02.1944 but in reality only one [No. 421010] was lost.
I'll get back later

BP wrote:PS3. Also I found the additional info that two FAB-5000 bombs, dropped from two Pe-8 07.02.1944 over Helsinki, exploded indeed [but, probably, they didn't hit the target - BP, no exact info. Officially it was reported that bombs exploded at cable works and railroad workshops of Helsinki]. The following bombs were dropped over/near Helsinki from 15 Pe-8s during the raid 07.02.1944 [flight altitude - 6500-7300 m] - 2xFAB-5000, 8xFAB-2000, 4xFAB-1000, 22xFAB-500, 22xFAB-250 [all high-explosive bombs], 11xZAB-100 [fire bombs], 2xSAB-100 [photoflash bombs]. FAB-5000 were dropped from Pe-8 of Ishchenko [altitude 5250 m, 11th heavy bomber which attacked the target, bomb was dropped on 21.33] and Pe-8 of Shamrai [altitude 5000 m, 15th/last heavy bomber which attacked the target, bomb was dropped on 21.54].
AFAIK Unger seems to back you up this time?

BP wrote:PS4. My Russian friend wrote me that Russian enthusiasts of WWII aviation don't like Rigmant's book because of quite many mistakes were taken from other sources [fates of bombers and their factory numbers, history of the development of ANT-42, etc.] and Russian guys value much more the books by Maslov and Unger.
8O

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 28 Jan 2007 03:15

Still prefer over-quoting :?
Well, especially for you!

Juha's "reason"
It's the easiest way to stay aware of your opinion developments.

As I've already mentioned - deep knowledge development :? Your quoted conversational phrases which have little/nothing common with the knowledge of the problem much more often :? :?
My reason - to show you sometimes your mistakes and/or misunderstandings!

Juha wrote:
Don't know, I haven't read the book.
From what I know, the the POWs at farm work were often not guarded at all.

I've already provided you with all necessary info from that short chapter of the book, so you don't need to read it, just answer do you have the same info or not? [that captured crewmember(s) worked at farm].

Juha wrote:
No.
Juha earlier wrote:
The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941
v.....;start=150

And I especially asked you about this :? ...to remind me.

Juha wrote:
Actually not "some sources" but:

Did you find the second source in my posts? :wink:

Juha wrote:
Of course "the Finns" knew where they captured the crew. Antipov was captured (as mentioned before) at Ruotsinpyhtää v.....;start=150 and the rest of the crew AFAIK at Lapinjärvi.

Of course :lol: About capture in Lapinjärvi you "exactly" mentioned only several days ago - IIRC as the third possibility to combat and capture near the front line [and some rumors "spreaded" during the discussions of the uniform of the soldier near the wrecks :wink:]. The facts that Antipov bailed out and other crewmembers were captured not far away from Lapinjärvi are quite possible in my opinion but still in doubt [Antipov could stay in aircraft, crewmembers could be captured far away from the crash place].

Juha wrote:
How credible you rate the Rigamant book from the historical point of view?

Who is "Rigamant"? I don't know such author :wink: From my opinion [as I've already read a lot of sources about TB-7/Pe-8] - not bad/not excellent: as I could understand, Rigmant described in great details the development of ANT-42 as prototype of TB-7 in 1936-1938, its very successful flight tests, development of engines, start the series production and description of production technology, arrest and tortures of designer Petlyakov, changing the Stalin's theories of strategical bombing which caused stop and restoration of TB-7/Pe-8 production, how the production of Pe-2 almost stopped the production of Pe-8, etc. [with unique photos and archive documents] - sounds quite knowledgable [nevertheless, my Russian friend found quite many mistakes in this info, I am not a very experienced specialist in the development of ANT-42 in 1930s]. But Rigmant paid much less attention to the use of TB-7/Pe-8 during the war and based his info on well-known but not very correct sources as me seems [he mixed up the factory numbers of bombers - Panfilov's TB-7 had the number 42026, but Rigmant used 42046 as many other not very correct sources did. He also wrote shortly about that bombing raid against Berlin and Pusep's flight to USA, but even didn't mention bombing raids of Pe-8 against Königsberg, Warsaw, Helsinki, Budapest, Bucharest, etc. as well as many tactical operations of those heavy bombers, including extremelly dangerous raids over Orel railroad center in summer 1943]. The large part of his book describes technical aspects of Pe-8, its modifications [especially, transport for paratroopers and passenger for VIP] and projects [improved TB-7, so called bomber "T", should look very similar to B-29, but that was not done]. I agree with your opinion [based on several scans] - this is good book about design of TB-7/Pe-8 [and development of its construction from early ANT-42 to late Pe-8 ON with diesels ACh-30B]. I also think that Maslov's book is much better and very detailed Unger's book is much-much better.

Juha wrote:
Any of them about raid of Berlin (Panfilov) ?

No, as I've already written in e-mail - Rigmant didn't mention any source about the use of TB-7/Pe-8 in bombing raids but the info he wrote about the Berlin raid 1941 is mentioned very often in Internet also. It's hard to understand the initial origin of this info [my Russian friend was very angry when he bought Rigmant's book and didn't find the sources].

Juha wrote:
I'm not interested at the scans, but the info from the books you have mentioned you have, and we have been waiting for (too) long.

The most interesting info I've already posted here [Maslov and Unger mentioned the same sources in their books], but I will post additional interesting info soon. Unger's book consists of ~300 pages, so not all info, please :wink: Not too long as we began to discussed these two books only very recently....Not we but only you, probably :) [but I hope that some other forum members are also interested in it].

Juha wrote:
even a small splinter may cause oil or blood to leake.

True, despite that pilots were protected with 9mm torso back armor. I believe that the damages were quite significant or serious [according to the best sources at the moment]. "Oil" :? always meant and means lubrication oil here as I prefer to use the term "diesel fuel" instead of "diesel oil". As Panfilov answered to "undercarriage" gunner by telephone and gave orders at first - may be his oxygen equipment [probably, damaged or swithched off because of oil invasion into one of the oxygen cylinder] was the reason of his death.

Juha wrote:
Of course I value that.
And from my point of view...Persistence pays off , doesn't it ?

Thanks a lot - hard to notice this from your "over-quoted" letters :lol:
My persistence almost always achieves good results 8-) This time thanks for my Russian friend I decided to contact by e-mail, he provided me with the excellent info I never find by myself.

Juha wrote about take-off timetable:
sounds believable

Of course....Despite your attempts to prove that the whole raid started ~22.00 - am I right? :wink: Interesting, this means that telegram from Zhigarev was quite correct (take-off time 21.00-22.00). Kurban's navigator remembered in his memoires the exact route excellent and his timetable was also quite good, but he mistaked in take-off timetable of their bomber for some reason [IIRC he wrote 20.20, damn I don't like to scroll the whole thread, sorry].

Juha wrote:
If the flight time of Panfilov plane was from ~2200 hours to ~0200 hours (and accordind to your calculations it got hit from the German AAA over Liepaja) (why would it be over there?) what would have been the timetable?

Very probably, Krysin mentioned crash time 02.03 according to Finnish time and he remembered it as somebody told him about it in prison [so it should be 03.03], and flight lasted 5 hours. I meant that if the bomber was shelled by AA artillery during the 3rd hour of flight [you can forgot about crash time for a second] and it had the speed 380 km/h [well, during the first hour of flight less because of climbing], so the distance between Pushkino and point of AA fire was 280-300 km [1st hour] + 380 [2nd hour] + ?km [beginning of the 3rd hour] =>700 km, right? Where it could be? Most probably - near Liepaja [the route passed between Liepaja and Gottland, see above]. This is my assumption.
Also I don't think that Soviet AA batteries on Oesel/Saaremaa liked to use search lights because of closeness of German army units, also almost all other bombers were attacked by Soviet fighters and AA artillery quite soon after take-off, near Luga bay. But the most important info is, of course, 380 km/h and 3rd hour. Probably, that is why quite many sources mention that Panfilov's bomber was damaged by Germans.

Juha wrote:
Also - Tyko and Hjalmar Blomqvist, according to the Finnish auto-magazine 4/89

Thanks for the correction. Unger mentioned them as brothers Tiko and Haalmar Blomkrist also [I just transliterated their names directly from Russian newspaper text].

BP wrote:
Only two crewmembers could return back to USSR after WWII [three others were missing, no info about them, how it is possible? - BP].
Juha earlier wrote:
If they didn't return to USSR after the war, there are several options:
- he died during the war in Finland
-he were send to Germany (Finland had an exhange program with Germany during the war: we got Fenno-Ugric POW's from German camps inexhange of our Soviet POW:s)
-he co-operated with Finns and fled to West after the war. ( a personal memory from the past v.....ht=#333828 (also scroll down a bit)

No, I meant how it was possible that Finns don't have the exact info about them. In any case [death, sending to Germany, co-operation - Antipov, probably :lol: ] it should be mentioned somewhere in Finnish sources. But Soviet newspaper gave the info that nobody knows and Finnish Government made several attempts but couldn't help according to Soviet request after WWII.

Juha wrote:
Hmmm...as 'm not very good at maths... but from 1982 to 1989 isn't that much.

Sorry, for unknown reason I was sure this evening that "Mobilisti" was from 1996. Probably, brain tiredness :D

Juha wrote:
Mitrinyuk just giving the names (from a Finnish memorial?)

Or from memoires and Soviet Air Force documents (for sure, all crewmembers were listed somewhere). Are all names of six crewmembers mentioned by Finnish memorial? Still no photo of it......When it was installed exactly? The exact names of all Panfilov's crewmembers appeared in Russian sources in 1991 at least.

Juha wrote about Pe-8 No. 421010, knocked down over Helsinki 27.02.1944
I'll get back later

This will be interesting. I was realy wondering that you had (still have?) absolutely no info about this case.

Juha wrote about the Russian opinions about Rigmant's book:
8O

See above.

BP

PS. Have you seen your e-mail already? :wink:

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