Heavy and long-range bombers of the allies - exact losses

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Jan 2007 21:27

BIGpanzer wrote:By the way, is the info from Stefanovsky's book about gunner sergeant Krysin from Panfilov's crew that he worked till the end of the war at Finnish farm at under the prison guard correct
According to the new "preliminary" info I have, Krysin worked at a farm at "West-Finland" . Don't know at the moment for how long, or was he guarded ( Lapinjärven Veteranikirja mentions a local example where at a big farm, 15 Soviet POW's worked under one guard.)
BP wrote:[that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]?
Don't know what Krysin told to Stefanovsky






BP wrote: "Oil" :? always meant and means lubrication oil here as I prefer to use the term "diesel fuel" instead of "diesel oil". As Panfilov answered to "undercarriage" gunner by telephone and gave orders at first - may be his oxygen equipment [probably, damaged or swithched off because of oil invasion into one of the oxygen cylinder] was the reason of his death.
I used "oil" as in Finnish source it was mentioned as "öljy" (=oil) which normaly means lubrication oil, but also diesel-oil was possible.
Both oil types at the gunner position (knee deep at the end) would have caused severe difficulties to the gunner: diesel fumes and high temperature lubrication oil)

BP wrote:thanks for my Russian friend I decided to contact by e-mail, he provided me with the excellent info I never find by myself.
Yes, thanks to him

BP wrote:this means that telegram from Zhigarev was quite correct (take-off time 21.00-22.00).
Didn't you earlier have some doubts about the truthfullness of it?

BP wrote:Kurban's navigator remembered in his memoires the exact route excellent and his timetable was also quite good, but he mistaked in take-off timetable of their bomber for some reason [IIRC he wrote 20.20, damn I don't like to scroll the whole thread, sorry].
IIRC you earler mentioned the Kurban navigator info being logbook based?

BP wrote:Very probably, Krysin mentioned crash time 02.03 according to Finnish time and he remembered it as somebody told him about it in prison [so it should be 03.03], and flight lasted 5 hours. I meant that if the bomber was shelled by AA artillery during the 3rd hour of flight [you can forgot about crash time for a second] and it had the speed 380 km/h [well, during the first hour of flight less because of climbing], so the distance between Pushkino and point of AA fire was 280-300 km [1st hour] + 380 [2nd hour] + ?km [beginning of the 3rd hour] =>700 km, right? Where it could be? Most probably - near Liepaja [the route passed between Liepaja and Gottland, see above]. This is my assumption
Do you have any sources that back up the "Liepaja option" ?
I have some doubts about the 380km/h cruise speed. In theory some storm wind could have pushed the plane to that, but how about the return flight, shouldn't they then have fased similar storm head-wind?
Or followed the storm wind them pushing them everywhere they turned?

BP earlier wrote:one source also which mentions-"TB-7 of senior lieutenant Panfilov was knocked down by AA artillery of Baltic Sea Navy by mistake, the aircraft crashed in Finland....." - http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/sdo5.htm

viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165
Do you know where this info is based?


BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Also - Tyko and Hjalmar Blomqvist, according to the Finnish auto-magazine 4/89

Thanks for the correction. Unger mentioned them as brothers Tiko and Haalmar Blomkrist also [I just transliterated their names directly from Russian newspaper text].
You're welcome.
Seems to be another example of "back and forth translations" Like the Puusepp case.

BP wrote:Only two crewmembers could return back to USSR after WWII [three others were missing, no info about them, how it is possible? - BP].
Juha earlier wrote:
If they didn't return to USSR after the war, there are several options:
- he died during the war in Finland
-he were send to Germany (Finland had an exhange program with Germany during the war: we got Fenno-Ugric POW's from German camps inexhange of our Soviet POW:s)
-he co-operated with Finns and fled to West after the war. ( a personal memory from the past v.....ht=#333828 (also scroll down a bit)

No, I meant how it was possible that Finns don't have the exact info about them. In any case [death, sending to Germany, co-operation - Antipov, probably :lol: ] it should be mentioned somewhere in Finnish sources. But Soviet newspaper gave the info that nobody knows and Finnish Government made several attempts but couldn't help according to Soviet request after WWII.
I don't know the answer at the moment.
Just recently a new program to check the fates of POW's in Finland started. Perhaps it can help.
IIRC papers of those POW's that co-operated (in larger scale) with Finns during the wars, in several cases disappeared. (they moved to west or were given a new, Finnish identity)

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Hmmm...as 'm not very good at maths... but from 1982 to 1989 isn't that much.

Sorry, for unknown reason I was sure this evening that "Mobilisti" was from 1996. Probably, brain tiredness :D
I know, happens often here too

BP wrote: Are all names of six crewmembers mentioned by Finnish memorial? Still no photo of it......When it was installed exactly?

-IIRC the names are there
-Patience, I will visit the place when the snow has melted at the woods (around April)
-
Juha earlier wrote: Lapinjärven Veteraanikirja (Book of Veterans of War of Lapinjärvi) mentions the following:
On May 5th 1985 the memorial plate (at the rock were the plane hit when force landing) of the fallen TB-7 crew was exposed. The memorial plate was raised and the event of exposing it was organised by local (left-wing organisation of) Finnish Communist Party (SKP:n vähemmistösiiven Uudenmaan osasto). Soviet, DDR, and Bulgarian embassies had send representatives to honour the event.
Member of Soviet veterancommittee German Stepan made a speech, whis is mentioned to have been an unpolitical and pragmatic.
Two years later the widows and relatives of the crew members made a honouring visit to the memorial. The event was very warm-hearted and emotional. The delegation also paid a visit and laid flowers to the Lapinjärvi heroes cemetery.
At that Finnish cemetery the widow of an officer, Rozina Gainedtiova (widow of the flight engineer A. Gaiputdinov you mentioned?), made a speech where she for instance said: "Let us wish that we never would be a war between us"
Every summer Soviet delegaions visit the memorial.
viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

BP wrote: Have you seen your e-mail already? :wink:
Yes, thank you.
Haven't had time to analyze it yet.

Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 29 Jan 2007 01:54

Hi, Juha!
Juha wrote:
According to the new "preliminary" info I have, Krysin worked at a farm at "West-Finland" . Don't know at the moment for how long, or was he guarded ( Lapinjärven Veteranikirja mentions a local example where at a big farm, 15 Soviet POW's worked under one guard.)

Thanks for the info. Am I right in my assumption that Krysin was at POW camp at first with other captured crewmembers? And after that he was given to the farm.... Stefanovsky wrote that captured gunner Krysin worked at the Finnish farm till the end of the war and he was carefully guarded to prevent his escape. But as the info about raid against Berlin in August 1941 from Stefanovsky's book is not correct in the case of Panfilov's bomber [the description of fates of other bombers by Stefanovsky seems to be more truthful in my opinion as well as the info about preparation to the raid], probably, Krysin was not guarded so carefully.

Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
[that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]?
Don't know what Krysin told to Stefanovsky

Of course, you don't know :lol: That was my statement, you quoted only the last part of my sentence :? :? Be careful, my friend! The question was about the farm.
The full sentence was
By the way, is the info from Stefanovsky's book about gunner sergeant Krysin from Panfilov's crew that he worked till the end of the war at Finnish farm under the prison guard correct [that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]?


Juha wrote:
Both oil types at the gunner position (knee deep at the end) would have caused severe difficulties to the gunner: diesel fumes and high temperature lubrication oil)

I believe that was lubrication oil [but according to memoires similar cases happened with engine fuel also during WWII, when damage of wing fuel tank(s) caused ingress of fuel into one of the "undercarriage" turrets]. That is why two diesels from the same half-wing were stopped, because they suffered from strong oil shortage [one of them was, probably, damaged by AA fire also]. Much more possible that those two diesels were stopped not over the Finland but much earlier, quite soon after AA fire, over Baltic Sea [see also the Krysin memoires of 1982].
PS. Usual oil load for TB-7/Pe-8 was ~880 kg [440 kg in centre wing and 440 kg in half-wings]. Fuel for diesels M-40F - diesel fuel or tractor kerosine distillate (max.load - 11160 litres).

Juha wrote about telegram from general-lieutenant Zhigarev:
Didn't you earlier have some doubts about the truthfullness of it?

Yes, I had some doubts as well as you [after your posts :wink: ]. Taking into consideration the take-off timetable of Pushkino airfield - the telegram is correct [usually secret reports from high rank persons were quite correct for obvious reasons, that is why I am still thinking about the order of People's Commissar of Defense and Panfilov name].

Juha wrote"
IIRC you earler mentioned the Kurban navigator info being logbook based?

Navigator mentioned this, I cited.
Lets compare the info:
I. Navigator of major Kurban [postWWII memoires] -
The first TB-7 took-off from Pushkino airfield 20.20 (2nd squadron of major Kurban, the 1st squadron of Pusep postponed take-off), bombers from the same squadron took-off with the interval 1 min. The initial point was Luzhskaya Bay, then bomber flew over the sea abeam Tallinn [course 223, ground speed 380 km/h, altitude - 6500 m]. 22.30 - Liepaja to the left, island Gottland to the right (course 223). 23.30 - island Rügen ahead (the 1st check point over Germany), turn to the left to the south over Rugen (course 180). Stettin to the left, turn to the right (course 90) till the confluence of Oder and Warta rivers. 0.08 - confluence of Oder and Warta, course 270 to the right - attack course to Berlin.

II. Major Kurban's report after flight [missing data - because of bad condition of the original document, my friend has the scan from archive]:
Take-off 20.52.35", line between Liepaja and Gottland 22.50, island Rügen - 23.50, confluence of Oder and Warta - 00.30, no time data between, landing in Ropsha - 05.30.
. Kurban's navigator mistaked on 20-30 min in his memoires but, of course, he remembered the course very good.

Juha wrote:
Do you have any sources that back up the "Liepaja option" ?
I have some doubts about the 380km/h cruise speed. In theory some storm wind could have pushed the plane to that, but how about the return flight, shouldn't they then have fased similar storm head-wind?
Or followed the storm wind them pushing them everywhere they turned?

No, if I have such sources I didn't write that it was my assumption only. Do you have the sources that back up the "Oesel option"? Several sources mention that Panfilov's bomber was damaged by German AAA [the most well-known version according to Russian sources, but that doesn't mean that this is the most correct version, of course] and nothing more, no info about the place. Cruise speed of 380 km/h was mentioned by two independent sources [Kurban's navigator and gunner Krysin], I think this is quite possible [anyway, if the cruise speed was usual 300 km/h and the bomber was shelled during the 3rd hour of flight - that point should be more western than Oesel/Saaremaa] - how do you think? By the way - bombers had fuel for 8 h of flight only and the route was 2700 km long [so average speed should be 337.5 km/h, see above]. As for the return flight - yes, I was thinking about this, and we should take into consideration the fact, that, very probably, bomber made flight on two engines over the Baltic Sea already [of course, it got down so this added the speed to some degree, but it should be quite low]. How do you imagine the route and timetable personally [22.00-02.00 or 22.00-03.00 - I believe to the last one]?
PS. TB-7 with M-40 diesels had max.speed 393 km/h at 5680 m and range 5460 km [all with 2 t of bombs].

Juha wrote:
BP earlier wrote:
one source also which mentions-"TB-7 of senior lieutenant Panfilov was knocked down by AA artillery of Baltic Sea Navy by mistake, the aircraft crashed in Finland....." - http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/sdo5.htm
Do you know where this info is based?

If I translated correct [by the way, very knowledgable language of the on-line article!] that was a very interesting discussion about that raid [better than we have here :lol: Are we more stupid than Russians? :lol: ] - and the sources could be the following: 1) popular science journal "The Wings of Fatherland" ("Êðûëüÿ Ðîäèíû") No.3, 1994 [I have one from 1992 - very detailed journal, BP]; 2) "Eve and beginning of the war, documents and materials", Leningrad, 1991; 3) journal "Aviation World" ("Ìèð àâèàöèè") No. 1, 1996 - secret materials from the year 1941 of official investigation of TB-7 losses during that raid were published there! 8O It was mentioned that those materials were in disagreement with the memoires of Vodopianov, published in 1971. How to find these sources, especially the last one [may be, the best source]? Hmm, I need to write one more letter to my friend in Moscow, probably....

Juha wrote:
You're welcome.
Seems to be another example of "back and forth translations" Like the Puusepp case.

These are very differ cases - Soviet newspaper from 1982 and Unger mentioned quite incorrect names [because of mangled of foreign names] for those two Finnish guys, but Pusep was direct transliteration from Russian [Ïóñýï] and it is correct therefore as only Pusep knew in 81st long-range division that he was Puusepp as Estonian :wink:

Juha wrote:
IIRC papers of those POW's that co-operated (in larger scale) with Finns during the wars, in several cases disappeared. (they moved to west or were given a new, Finnish identity)

You should know this topic better. IIRC quite small amount of Soviet prisoners agreed to collaborate with Finns and stayed in Finland after Winter war and WWII [I saw the exact data in my litarature sources at home but I can't find them at the moment, by memory about Winter war [I can mistake here but not very seriously] - almost all Soviet prisoners ~5500 men were returned back to USSR, from which ~150 were shot and ~4500 were sent to Stalin's camps for 5-8 years, others were acquited], also ~600 Finnish prisoners were given to Finland back [~500 died in USSR]. I have no info about two crewmembers of Panfilov, who returned back to USSR after WWII - but, most probably, that they sat several years at Stalin's camps also.

Juha wrote:
I know, happens often here too

Very seldom and from both sides :lol:

Juha wrote:
Patience, I will visit the place when the snow has melted at the woods (around April)

Thanks a lot! When I mentioned the photo of monument I just thought about Finnish Internet/literature sources. Do you have any idea about them?

Juha wrote:
Yes, thank you.
Haven't had time to analyze it yet.

You are welcome. I will send you several interesting for you pages from Unger in addition.

Regards, BP

PS. I will be extremelly busy next week [two conferences, in Canada and in Hungary], so I will come back only 6-7 February.

PS2. Excellent detailed image of Pe-8 with extended landing gear -
http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww2/b/674/1/2/23
That was Pe-8 with AM-35A engines [No. 42088, Red 4] from 746th APDD (long-range air regiment) in March 1943. The bomber was produced in 1942.
1st pilot - A. Peregudov till April 1943, later - Hero of USSR major Sugak.
Red 4 participated in many bombing raids [Sugak performed 39 combat flights with this bomber], was damaged by very strong AA fire over Orel in July 1943 (nevertheless, Sugak dropped all bombs on the enemy airfield and destroyed it), bombed Danzig in April 1943, Helsinki in February 1944, also made photo reconnaissance flights.
The bomber was knocked down by German AA fire on 29 June(July?), 1944 over Borisov not far away from Minsk (shell fired left wing) during photo reconnaissance flight, all 11 crewmembers bailed out and could reach Soviet positions.

PS3. Juha, IIRC you was interested in the amount of those heavy bombers in long-range aviation units during WWII, here is exact info:
22.06.1941 - 9 [including 4 under repair].
01.10.1941 - 14 [including 8 under repair]
18.03.1942 - 11 [including 8 under repair]
01.05.1942 - 16 [including 12 under rapair]
18.11.1942 - 14 [including 4 under repair]
01.07.1943 - 18 [including 7 under repair]
01.01.1944 - 20 [including 1 under repair]
01.06.1944 - 30 [all in good condition]
01.05.1945 - 31 [including 8 under repair]
10.05.1945 - 32 [including 14 under repair]
Removed from military service as long-range heavy bombers - since the beginning of 1946. The last known fact of active use of Pe-8 - participation in large polar expedition "North Pole-4" in May 1954 [Pe-8 USSR-H556].

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 31 Jan 2007 00:58

BIGpanzer wrote: probably, Krysin was not guarded so carefully.
Those who were allowed to farm work were usually the best behaving POW's who didn't need guarding at all or had just a "guide" with them.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:[that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]?

Don't know what Krysin told to Stefanovsky

Of course, you don't know :lol: That was my statement, you quoted only the last part of my sentence :? :? Be careful, my friend! The question was about the farm.
The full sentence was
By the way, is the info from Stefanovsky's book about gunner sergeant Krysin from Panfilov's crew that he worked till the end of the war at Finnish farm under the prison guard correct [that was what Krysin told Stefanovsky]?
What I actually ment was, did Krysin tell anything to Stefanovsky? (is there any info they ever met?)
From which of them the fiction of the "battles at the woods" is from?

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:IIRC you earler mentioned the Kurban navigator info being logbook based?

Navigator mentioned this, I cited.
Lets compare the info:
I. Navigator of major Kurban [postWWII memoires] -
The first TB-7 took-off from Pushkino airfield 20.20 (2nd squadron of major Kurban, the 1st squadron of Pusep postponed take-off), bombers from the same squadron took-off with the interval 1 min.
compared to this
BP earlier wrote:This night I found exact timetable:

I. Real take-off time of TB-7s from Pushkino airfield - one by one
major Kurban - 20.52
senior lieutenant Peregudov - ?
captain Tyagunin - 21.03
kombrig Vodopianov - 21.05
lieutenant Bidny - 21.50
major Ugryumov - 21.58
senior lieutenant Panfilov - 22.00
Source: flight information service unit's report of Pushkino airfield, 10.08.1941
Who to believe: Kurban navigator or this report?

BP wrote:II. Major Kurban's report after flight [missing data - because of bad condition of the original document, my friend has the scan from archive]:
Take-off 20.52.35", line between Liepaja and Gottland 22.50, island Rügen - 23.50, confluence of Oder and Warta - 00.30, no time data between, landing in Ropsha - 05.30.
.
[quote"BP"]By the way - bombers had fuel for 8 h of flight only and the route was 2700 km long [so average speed should be 337.5 km/h, see above].
From 20.52.35 to 05.30 is more than 8 hours.

BP wrote:How do you imagine the route and timetable personally [22.00-02.00 or 22.00-03.00 - I believe to the last one]?
The crash time is 0210 according to the sources I have (at the moment) I'm not sure about the Panfilov take-off time



BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Do you have any sources that back up the "Liepaja option" ?

No, if I have such sources I didn't write that it was my assumption only. Do you have the sources that back up the "Oesel option"?

Well this source http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/sdo5.htm mentions it have been a result of friendly fire and this one viewtopic.php?t=93670&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105 more detailed:
The plane was the last of the group to start, and after some trouble at the start the plane was left behind from the others. On their way to the target the Soviet AAA fired and hit at it over Saaremaa or Hiiumaa.




BP wrote: It was mentioned that those materials were in disagreement with the memoires of Vodopianov, published in 1971. How to find these sources, especially the last one [may be, the best source]? Hmm, I need to write one more letter to my friend in Moscow, probably....
Any real info is very much appreciated.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:You're welcome.
Seems to be another example of "back and forth translations" Like the Puusepp case.

These are very differ cases - Soviet newspaper from 1982 and Unger mentioned quite incorrect names [because of mangled of foreign names] for those two Finnish guys, but Pusep was direct transliteration from Russian [Ïóñýï] and it is correct therefore as only Pusep knew in 81st long-range division that he was Puusepp as Estonian
No they are very similar cases:
At both of them there was at first an original name that then was translated as a Russian version which then was translated back to latin letters (and ended up dissimilar to the original name) As happened here: viewtopic.php?p=587011&highlight=#587011 (also scroll down a bit)

Puusepp -> russian version -> Pusep
Tyko and Hjalmar Blomqvist -> russian version -> Tiko and Haalmar Blomkrist.
Myllykoski -> russian version -> Mullukoski

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:IIRC papers of those POW's that co-operated (in larger scale) with Finns during the wars, in several cases disappeared. (they moved to west or were given a new, Finnish identity)

You should know this topic better.
I know it better, just didn't find Winter War statistics very topic related.
BP wrote:IIRC quite small amount of Soviet prisoners agreed to collaborate with Finns and stayed in Finland after Winter war and WWII [I saw the exact data in my litarature sources at home but I can't find them at the moment, by memory about Winter war [I can mistake here but not very seriously] - almost all Soviet prisoners ~5500 men were returned back to USSR, from which ~150 were shot and ~4500 were sent to Stalin's camps for 5-8 years, others were acquited], also ~600 Finnish prisoners were given to Finland back [~500 died in USSR].
something basic can be found here: viewtopic.php?t=109943&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

BP wrote:I have no info about two crewmembers of Panfilov, who returned back to USSR after WWII - but, most probably, that they sat several years at Stalin's camps also.
Most probably longer than in Finland and at more severe conditions than at Finnish farm.

BP wrote:When I mentioned the photo of monument I just thought about Finnish Internet/literature sources. Do you have any idea about them?
Sory, but no.

.

BP wrote:PS. I will be extremelly busy next week [two conferences, in Canada and in Hungary], so I will come back only 6-7 February.
Have safe trip.

Thanks for the additional info.

Regards, Juha

dando
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Post by dando » 12 May 2007 22:43

Hi

With reference to the extensive list of plane shot down in WWII. I wonder if someone could give me some more information on the following snippit.

31/05-01/06/44 Maisy ME794 ND698

I understand the date and the destination its more the significance of the ME and ND bits.

Thanks in advance.

Gary

Hop
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Post by Hop » 13 May 2007 07:22

ME794 and ND698 are Lancaster serial numbers, in this case they are identifying which aircraft were lost.

dando
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Post by dando » 13 May 2007 21:47

Hi

Thanks for that. Could you elaborate on this with any more information.... who they were, where from, pilots names etc ? Is that possible.

Thanks. Gary

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Post by Hop » 14 May 2007 04:33

A quick search turns up this for ME794:
lancaster ME794 Information
Serial range ME554 - ME868 This aircraft was one of 250 lancaster Mk.1s ordered from Metro- Vick may42 and delivered from Nov43 to Jan44 with Merlin 22 engines initially installed up to ME639 and Merlin 24 engines from Me640 except for Me668/9 with Merlin 22 engines. ME794 was delivered to 44 Squadron 12May44. ME794 took part in the Key Operation against Duisburg 21/22May44. This aircraft was one of those which returned from the Maisy raid with a full bomb-load. It crashed attempting an o/shoot at Westcott and exploded Ths aircraft was one of two 44 Squadron Lancasters that survived the raid only to crash in th UK.See ND698 Airborne 2254 31May44 from Dunholme Lodge to bomb coastal batteries. Turned back due to cloud cover at the AP and subsequently landed 0253 1Jun44, with its bomb load intact, at Westcott airfield, Buckinghamshire. The Lancaster over-ran the end of the runway, crossed the main A41 road and was wrecked. At 0330, with the crew unhurt and well clear of the aircraft, F/L E.C.Bulmer, a Flying Control Officer at Westcott, was at the crash site when an explosion occurred killing him instantly. He is buried in Hereford Cemetery. F/s R.Oswald Sgt J.R.Hurley F/S A.R.Shoebottom RCAF F/s T.W.White W/O A.J.Richardson Sgt L.J.Hutchinson Sgt R.H.Sargent


From http://lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=354

And for ND698:
Serial range ND324 - NE181 This aircraft was one of 600 Lancaster Mk.111s ordered from A.V.roe (Chadderton) and delivered from Dec43 to May44 with Merlin 38 engines. ND698 Overshot and crashed attempting to land at Oakley. ND698 was one of two 44 Squadron Lancasters to survive the raid but crash at diversion airfields in the UK. See ME794 When lost this aircraft had a total of 214 hours. airborne 2309 31May44 to bomb coastal batteries. Turned back due to cloud obscuring the AP, landing 0253 01Jun44 with a partial bomb load at Oakley airfield, Buckinghamshire. On touch down the Lancaster over-ran the end of the runway and a wheel dropped in a ditch. almost immediately the port wing took fire and the aircraft was burned out. No injuries reported. For the loss of this crew See LM592. F/S E.A.Canty RAAF Sgt R.E.Clay F/O J.R.Vowles Sgt E.Norris P/O W.M.Crook Sgt E.G.Scott F/S L.J.McCoy.

http://lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=927

If you enter the serial number of LM592 in the search box on that page, it shows that the crew of ND698 were all killed in LM592 on the 21/22nd June.

If you need more info, you might try a query at http://www.lancaster-archive.com/

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Post by BIGpanzer » 16 May 2007 22:37

Still no time to finishing the section about Soviet heavy bomber TB-7/Pe-8.

But as for British Avro "Lancaster" - I have several questions. Does anybody know the exact serial numbers of 2 "Lancaster"s which participated in the bombing raid against Essen 10/11 March, 1942?
AFAIK 126 aircraft (56 "Wellington"s, 43 "Hampden"s, 13 "Manchester"s, 12 "Stirling"s and 2 "Lancaster"s) participated in the raid. And that was the first participation of "Lancaster"s in a raid against German target. Four bombers were lost [all two "Lancaster"s survived].
That was disappointing for Britons raid: 62 crews claimed to have bombed industry center Essen and 35 crews bombed alternative targets. In reality only 2 bombs hit industrial target - railway near Krupps factory. Also 1 house was destroyed and 2 damaged in residential areas, 5 men were killed and 12 were wounded.

Also I am looking for serial numbers of four "Lancaster"s from 44th RAF squadron which participated in minelaying off the North-West German coast (Helgoland archipelago) 03/04 March, 1942 - that was the first combat mission for newest British heavy bomber "Lancaster" IIRC.

And it is not 100% clear - what were the exact amount of damaged "Lancaster"s during bombing raid against missile research centre Peenemünde in August 1943: AFAIK 23 "Lancaster"s were lost from 324 bombers of that type, participated in the operation "Hydra", but what about the damaged bombers?

Best regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 20 May 2007 13:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 19 May 2007 23:35

During my searches about heavy bomber TB-7/Pe-8 I found the mention about its British analogue ("Lancaster" B.Mk.I) in Soviet service. Only today I had time to translate this Russian text.
Here it is.

In September 1944 Soviet and British commands initiated the joint operation "Paravane" against German battleship "Tirpitz", which anchored at Altafjord in Norway and represented the potential danger for allied convoys to USSR. So 38 "Lancaster"s, 2 transport "Liberator"s and 1 recon "Mosquito" were sent to Soviet airfield Yagodnik in Arkhangelsk region. "Lancaster"s I & III from RAF 617th and 9th bomber squadrons were intended to use super-heavy bombs [12000 pounds or 5450 kg] - they had enlarged bomb bay and had no upper turret FN50.

British aircraft began to land on Arkhangelsk airfields since 06.00 am 12.09.1944. Ten "Lancaster"s made emergency landings because of different reasons in Onega, Belomorsk, Kegostrov, Molotovsk and in cold desert. One bomber landed in such hard-to-reach area, that Soviets needed to drop paratrooper-guide for British crewmembers, who showed them the way towards the river where flying boat waited them. Seven bombers from those ten were damaged, one was repaired by Soviet and British specialists.

15.09.1944 - 27 "Lancaster"s [including 1 repaired] performed the bombing raid against "Tirpitz". Soviet navigators led "Lancaster"s to the target, also Soviet aircraft made recon flights before and photographed the results of the raid: from 21 super-heavy bombs "Tallboy" [six bombers carried usual armor-piercing bombs, 224 kg each] one hit the battleship directly, also several armor-piercing bombs hit "Tirpitz". But "Tirpitz" didn't sink, also there were no losses among British bombers.

During 16-28.09.1944 all serviceable "Lancaster"s returned back to Great Britain, and could sink "Tirpitz" later, in the bay Håkøybotn. Six damaged "Lancaster"s [1 "Lancaster" III and 5 "Lancaster" I] remained on Soviet territory, four of them were investigeted for repair, and two of those four bombers were delivered to Kegostrov. Workshops of Air Forces of White Sea military flotilla began to repair and reequip those two "Lancaster"s - chief engineer was Kir'yanov.

All armament of those two "Lancaster"s was removed, rear turret was closed with aluminium plates, damaged nose part of the bombers was replaced with new transparent cowling.

The first "Lancaster" [tactical number "01"] was used by 16th transport air unit of Air Forces of White Sea flotilla [previous famous 2nd separate air group, formed from polar pilots when the war began] since 01.1945 - that was "Lancaster" ME559. The pilot was V. Evdokimov, navigator - V. Andreev. That "Lancaster" was used for transportation of men and cargos; but mainly - for support of sea convoys, ice patrol, anti-submarine patrol missions, long-range recon flights. For example, 24.01.1945 that aircraft performed ice patrol in the area of Novaya Zemlya/Naryan-Mar. The usual crew during such combat missions consisted of 4-5 men: 1-2 pilots, navigator and 2 mechanics.
That aircraft was sent to Pacific Ocean in August 1945, but it was delayed in Krasnoyarsk because of absence of fuel. Soon the war with Japan finished, so "01" didn't participate in it. In summer 1946 it was transferred to Riga aerotechnical school, and its further fate is unknown.
http://www.airpages.ru/img/us/lanc_red.gif [image of that "Lancaster"]

The second restored "Lancaster" [tactical number "02"] was used by 70th separate transport regiment of Air Forces of the North Navy. The pilot was I. Dubenets. Also "01" served there for the short period of time when 16th transport unit was disbanded. "02" was heavily damaged during landind on Izmailovo airfield in Moscow after WWII [overrun the runway, so landing gear and nose part were destroyed], so it was decided not to restore it again but scrapped.


Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 21 May 2007 17:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 21 May 2007 00:18

As for US Boeing B-17 Flying Fortresses in Soviet service - AFAIK command of Air Forces [VVS] would like to buy newest US heavy bomber in March 1936 already. It was planned to produce it in Kazan [air factory No.124], using purchased bomber as the sample, but it was decided later [because negotiations with USA failed] to produce own native heavy long-range bomber TB-7 there.

When German-Soviet war began, negotiations with USA started again. In August 1941 it was discussed to send 10 B-17 per month to USSR [5 from USA, 5 from UK], because Soviet industry needed to produce fighters, combat aircraft and front bombers, so the production of native heavy bombers TB-7 was quite insignificant.
USA promised to deliver 27 B-17 till June 1942. Intelligence section of Central Command of RKKA was against the purchase of B-17 because they thought that B-17 was an obsolete type of four-engine bomber already, so intelligence officers asked Soviet Government to purchase more modern B-24. On the other hand, Soviet HQ of Air Forces asked for B-17 because of its good speed, range and general convenience for use by Soviet aviation. So the group of Soviet experienced test pilots under the leadership of famous pilot M. Gromov came to USA that time to take the first 5 promised B-17 - it was planned to perform the flight USA-UK, armed those B-17 with bombs in England, bombed German targets and landed in Moscow. Nevertheless, US Government decided not to give B-17 to USSR [there were only 40 B-17 on 01.08.1941 in US service; also they were equipped with secret bomb sights], but gave several B-25 instead [which were not useful for such great raid as it was planned by Soviets]. US generals rejected the additional attempt of USSR to purchase B-17 in September 1941.

In 1944 USSR ordered 240 B-17 according to 4th Lend-Lease protocol, and received nothing again. But in June 1944 USA started bombing operations against East Germany, Romania. Poland and Hungary using Soviet airfields in Poltava, Mirgorod and Piryatin according to special agreement. Those Soviet airfields in Ukraine were reequipped for B-17 and their crews; US bombers of 8th and 15th air armies started the flight from England and Italy, bombed their targets and landed in USSR where bombers were fueled and armed with bombs before return back. Soviets provided US bombers with AA defense of airfields, supply and repair. The first such raid was done 02.06.1944 when 128 B-17G and 64 fighters landed in Poltava. Germans attacked Poltava and Mirgorod airfields 22.06.-23.06.1944: 44 B-17G were destroyed and 24 were damaged in Poltava, for example. USA continued operations "Frantic" [also called as "shuttle operations"] till 19.09.1944 - 1030 aircraft [529 B-17] participated in those 7 operations. Heavily damaged bombers were left on Soviet airfields.

Red Army entered the countries of Eastern Europe already, and abandoned US and British bombers were found by Soviet soldiers sometimes. For example, engineers from 448th bomber regiment found quite many US heavy bombers, abandoned after emergency landings in Hungary and Austria: several B-17 were investigated and repaired successfully, and 1 was tested in flight to show it to commander of 17th air army general Sudets and commander of 3rd Ukrainian Front marshal F. Tolbuhin.
10.04.1945 the order appeared - all Soviet units should report about findings of abandoned Allied bombers to the HQ of 18th air army. The amount of Soviet heavy bombers Pe-8 was not enough even for 45th long-range air division, and Allies could provide USSR officially only with 1 B-24D [No. 41-23891, made emergency landing in Soviet Far-East in 1943] and 1 Short "Stirling III" [No. LK615, was transferred to USSR via Irak-Iran 02.-03.1945; it was in quite bad condition, so Soviets insisted on recall and repair of this already obsolete bomber]. So it was decided to repair found B-17 and B-24, and to give them to 45th air division [the single Soviet combat unit, equipped with four-engine heavy bombers that time].
According to Soviet unit reports - 73 damaged and abandoned B-17 of different modifications were found in Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia till May 1945. US diplomats in Moscow knew about this but they had recommendation from US Government not to interfere in this, also US specialists mistakenly thought that Soviets found and could repair only several B-17. Many B-17 from those 73 were heavily damaged during emergency landings, US crews tried to explode secret equipment also, often native population and Soviet infantrymen found those bombers before Soviet aircraft mechanics/engineers could reach them - so some equipment was stolen already. The major part of those B-17 were found in Poland where Armia Krajowa tried to destroy them before Soviets could find those bombers [for example, 29.05.1945 Poles from Armia Krajowa exploded B-17, which was under repair by specialists from 45th division, in Demblin]. But despite all difficulties, quite many B-17 were found and repaired.

US bomber B-17 [No. 43-38902] made emergency landing in Poland (Zheshuv) 13.04.1945, near the airfield of Soviet 341st air regiment. It was repaired and sent to Poltava - that was the first B-17 of Soviet 45th long-range air division.
One B-17G, which made emergency landing in Poland also and wasn't damaged, was returned back to Americans.
One B-17F was sent in 1945 to the Research Institute of People's Commissariat of Aircraft Industry for tests, also additional bomber [B-17G] was given to that Institute in 1948, and the third one [B-17G] - in 1949 [the last two were transferred from 890th air regiment].

890th air regiment of 45th division [airfield Balabasovo near Orsha] had 9 Pe-8, 19 B-25 and 12 B-17 01.07.1945. In October 1945 that regiment had 16 flyable B-17G already. US "Flying Fortresses" were used by 890th air regiment as usual bombers for pilots training just after WWII - Soviet pilots liked them as B-17G had comparable specifications with Pe-8, but US bombers were equipped with better navigational/radio equipment and were much more comfortable for pilots. Famous Soviet WWII pilot of Pe-8 S. Sugak mentioned in his memoires that B-17G was very easy to control in flight and had excellent equipment, but Pe-8 had better takeoff and landing characteristics and better observability from pilot cabin; their speed, altitude and range were quite similar but heavy bombers Pe-8 were already in worn-out condition mainly because of intensive combat use during the war.
In 1946 890th air regiment was moved to Kazan, so several B-17 hard to repair, were abandoned on Balabasovo airfield, and scrapped in 1948. B-17 bombers were often investigated by engineers from Kazan aircraft factory which prepared to serial production of Tu-4 [Soviet copy of B-29]. In summer 1947 the regiment was equipped with the first bombers Tu-4, so B-17 were scrapped soon. 890th air regiment used 21 B-17G in 1945-1947.

Also 1 B-17F + 2 B-17G served in the Research Institute of People's Commissariat of Aircraft Industry [see above], 5 B-17G - in Research Institute No. 17 [as aircraft for tests of radio equipment and radars] till the mid1950s, 1 B-17 was used by Research Institute of Air Forces for high-altitude parachute jumps.

B-17G-40-VE No. 42-97996 from 890th air regiment of 45th air division of heavy bombers, May 1945 [1st pilot - I. Shchadnykh]
http://www.airwar.ru/transfer/grishan// ... cs/1_2.jpg
B-17G-50-DL No. 44-6316 [served in 358th BS, 303rd BG, 8th AF USAAF at first] from 45th air division of heavy bombers, July 1945
http://www.airwar.ru/transfer/grishan// ... cs/1_1.jpg

Regards, BP

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Post by BIGpanzer » 22 May 2007 01:23

A little bit off-topic, but I just found the info about German Fw.200 "Condor" in Soviet service during WWII. One Fw.200 [C3 No. 0034] was captured near Stalingrad and tested at Research Institute of Air Forces till April 1943 [test pilot - colonel A. Kabanov]. Soviet engineers mentioned similarity between configurations of cabins of Fw.200 and DC-3, also they noted that reequipment of civil passenger aircraft into long-range recon aircraft/bomber was not successful - pilots didn't have rearview, all crewmembers had inconvenient working places, flight control of Fw.200 was not easy. Nevertheless, Soviets found that equipment of Fw.200 was very good - the construction of German flash suppressors was used on Pe-8 soon, Fw.200 were equipped with reliable heat anti-acer, excellent electric systems and bomb sight. Newest fixed loop radio compass, equipment for instrumental landing, automatic course device, three-axis indicator, etc. were given for detailed investigations to corresponding research institutes.

But general conclusion was dissapointing for German aircraft as comparisons of Fw.200 with native heavy bomber Pe-8 with AM-35A engines showed significant advantages of Soviet aircraft in maximal speed, service ceiling, amount and location of defensive armament. Fw.200 had much worse specifications than main heavy bombers of the Allies - B-17, "Lancaster" and Pe-8.

That Soviet Fw.200 "Condor" was tested at Research Institute of Air Forces till April 1943, later it was used by Polar aviation [tactical number H-401].
http://www.airwar.ru/transfer/grishan// ... /1_o_1.jpg [Fw.200 H-401 of Soviet civil Polar aviation, 1946]

Best regards, BP

P.S. Jon G. kindly provided me with the excellent article about operations of USAF bombers B-17 from Soviet airfields in 1944. Thank you very much!

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 May 2007 21:05

Juha Tompuri wrote:According to the new "preliminary" info I have, Krysin worked at a farm at "West-Finland" . Don't know at the moment for how long, or was he guarded
With permission, from the CF Geust archives, (could someone translate the relevant parts of it?) from Pravda 3rd November 1982:

Regards, Juha
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 May 2007 21:23

...and the rest:
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Re: Heavy and long-range bombers of the allies - exact losses

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Mar 2008 21:34

A new Finnish book about the TB-7 that crashed at Finland on 11th August 1941.

At first glance it looked quite OK, but the more I have read, the more I have been disappointed to the work of the author.
He has had approx the same sources as I but the book contains quite a lot inaccuracies, and fiction.
Good parts are the several published documents about the case.


Regards, Juha
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Re: Heavy and long-range bombers of the allies - exact losse

Post by Fiskerton » 09 Jan 2011 00:51

Dear Bigpanzer
The lancaster files you have put on this website are owned by Mr larry wright
He has the copyright for this material,the files having been stolen from his website http://www.lancaster-archive.com
Larry has spent many years compiling this list of Lancaster losses and im sure if this had happened to you, finding your work
put up for sale on the web, you would not be best pleased.
If you have come accross these files and have placed them on this website in good faith, could you please remove the file and inform Larry as to were you found them.
The members of Larry,s lancaster Forum are aware of this theft and are on constant lookout for any reference to this file.
I came accross it just by entering into my Browser one of the Lancasters serial numbers so repeat postings of this file WILL be detected and replys of this nature posted.
Please respect the work of others. We are all passionate in sharing our Knowlage of aspects of the world wars, and im sure if anyone mailed Larry to request use of his work he would respond positively to any resonable request for information on a non profit basis but theft of ones work cannot be tolerated
Thank you in anticipation

Fiskerton

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