352. Division June 1944

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Richard Anderson
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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#31

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2017, 20:13

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
s.Art.-Bttr. 660 (17cm K: The existence of this unit is uncertain. It is mentioned by Tessin as part of Art.Regt.-Stab z.b.V.621, but otherwise it does not appear in any documentation of 7. A.O.K. that I can find. It is possible that 10./H.K.A.R. 1261 and this battery may be one and the same, but that is unconfirmed?)
Former 3./ s.Art.Abt. (mot.)768

per 16.12.43 renamed schw. Kanonenbatterie (mot.) 660.

Uwe has it on 8.5.44 at AOK 14, but on 6.6.44 directly under AOK 7 (which for me must be a mistake!), and on 16.9.44 AOK 14/ I.FschKorps/ ArKo(mot.) 122.

Source: Uwe Kleinert Organisationsgeschichte der deutschen Heeres-Artillerie im II.Weltkrieg, Vol.3 , Teil XI, p.13

Jan-Hendrik
Thanks for solving another mystery. I knew I should order Uwe' s book but I am on fixed income now.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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yantaylor
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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#32

Post by yantaylor » 07 Jun 2017, 20:26

I thank you for that info Richard, those 12.2cm K(r) are the ones I am trying to pin down, so the question is are these either 12.2cm K.390/1(r) or 12.2cm K.390/2(r)

Yan.


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Manuferey
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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#33

Post by Manuferey » 08 Jun 2017, 02:00

1) Various German documents of end of 1943 and 1944 are pretty clear: Artillerie-Regiment Stab z.b.V. 621 at that time included only sAA 456 and sAA 457:
1-zbV621-43-44.jpg
2) An earlier German Gliederung (but I dont know the exact date) indicates that "in Raum 709 I.D."Art.-Regt. Stab z.b.V. 621 was composed of sAA 456, sAA 457 and sAA 989. sAA 989 was later transferred (I don't know the date) in the area of the 716 ID in the Calvados where it was positioned in June 1944.
1-zbV621-sAA989.jpg
3) As far as the type of K390(r) of sAA 456 and sAA 457, I was finally able to pin it down a few years ago thanks to the archives put on line by wwii.germandocsinrussia.org: it was K390/1(r). This is surprising as I would have expected the more modern K390/2(r) which was used by 1./HKAR 1261 and III./AR 243.
1-sAA456-457-K390-2.jpg
Emmanuel

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#34

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Jun 2017, 02:35

Manuferey wrote:1) Various German documents of end of 1943 and 1944 are pretty clear: Artillerie-Regiment Stab z.b.V. 621 at that time included only sAA 456 and sAA 457:
Yes, I have those, which is why I always wondered about 660. I wonder if the connection to 7. Armee in Tessin is spurious and it was actually with 14. Armee?
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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#35

Post by yantaylor » 08 Jun 2017, 12:25

I am among real experts here, you guys are amazing.
Thanks
Yan.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#36

Post by yantaylor » 08 Jun 2017, 12:32

Couple of questions regarding the 91. ID, I have tried to pin down who commanded what in this divisions, but a couple have slipped tghough the net and these are;

Füsilier Bataillon 91. Who commanded this unit and did it have only one company?
Gebirgs Flak Kompanie 91: Who commanded this unit and was its 12 x flak guns divided into 3 zugs?

The two other units are the Feldersatz Bataillon 91. how many companies did it have last but least the Divisional Supply Trupp 91., who commanded this unit.

Yan.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#37

Post by jpz4 » 08 Jun 2017, 14:04

Yan, there's a book coming about the division in a couple of months which should answer those questions in sufficient detail. Since the authors have been working on this for a long time do not want to get in their way regarding the commanders of these units. (Most if not all are known)

What I will say is that there was no Fuselier-Btl. It was indeed only a company.
And yes, there were 12 Flak divided over three platoons.
The F.E.B. in divisions of the 25.Welle is a complicated matter and I do not know what happened exactly with the 91. division. In case of the 77.I.D. it was still being formed in May 1944. I would not be surprised it this was the same for the 91.I.D. but it may not have existed at all as it is not included by Tessin.

BTW, most of the units in the division used the number 191 not 91

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#38

Post by yantaylor » 09 Jun 2017, 14:09

I understand jpz, thanks.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#39

Post by yantaylor » 22 Jun 2017, 15:32

Hi everyone, I have just done a rough out line of the Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung 21. circa June 1944 and although it looks ok I think that things need clarifying, here is what I have got.

21. Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung:
Commander: Major Waldow
1. Kompanie [9 x SdKfz 250/3 & 16 x SdKfz 250/9]
2. Kompanie [6 x Sd.Kfz 233 [7.5cm], 8 x Sd.Kfz 232 & 6 x Sd.Kfz 221 & 3 x Sd.Kfz 221 mit 2.8cm]
3. Kompanie [2 x le.Pz. Fk.Wg., 28 x le.SPW & 7 x m.SPW)
4. Kompanie [2 x le.Pz. Fk.Wg., 28 x le.SPW & 7 x m.SPW)
5. Schwere Kompanie [27 x m.SPW)

Now I have traced [with a lot of help from various sources], the AFVs in the first two companies, but the last three are confounding me, I mean it gives abbreviations but not what type of vehicles they are, for instance, could those le.SPW be French conversions, could those le.Pz. Fk.Wg. be the same conversions but mounting a flak 38, and finally could those m.SPW be SD.KFZ 251s.

I would love to find out, so can any one help please?

Regards
Yan.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#40

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 22 Jun 2017, 16:20

Yan, the le Pz fk wg were radio vehicles not Flak vehicles and were probably SdKfz 250/3.

Perrigault gives the three companies as having the same number of vehicles as you have listed with the following weapons;
3rd and 4th Companies....3 x 37mm Pak, 6 x 20mm (Perrigault has photographs of SdKfz 250 with the 2cm KWK 38 mounted on pintles in front of the driver's front plate), 2 x 8cm Mortar, 2 x MMG.

5th Company......1 x SdKfz 251/10, 2 x SdKfz 251/16, 6 x SdKfz 251/9, 3 x Pak40 towed, 2 x 7,5cm leIG18 towed.
Alan

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#41

Post by yantaylor » 22 Jun 2017, 23:20

Thank you Alan, great info.

Yan.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#42

Post by yantaylor » 23 Jun 2017, 13:56

Alan, I am just trying to fathom out what you have posted mate, now are you saying that the 3rd and 4th companies had three SdKfz 250/10s, nine SdKfz 250/9s, two SdKfz 250/7s and two SdKfz 250/1s carrying MMG teams?

Now I get that to 16 x SdKfz 250s [all versions], so each the companies had 37 half-tracks which means that they still have 21 left, would these be SdKfz 250s or SdKfz 251s

Same with the 5th company, if you take out the vehicles that are either mounting or towing weapons then that comes to 14, which leaves another 13 to make up their full total of 27, would these all be SdKfz 251s

Regards
Yan.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#43

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 23 Jun 2017, 20:17

Yan, there were no SdKfz 250/9 in 3rd and 4th Companies. What I said was that each company had 6 x 20mm guns. I added that I have seen photographs of SdKfz 250 with the 2cm KWK 38 mounted in front of the driver's front plate using a pintle.
If you'd like to see them they are on the Bundesarchiv, BA1011-495-3436-16 the best of them. Or you can scroll down the page to find one pic on this link.
http://www.weirdwwii.com/2012/07/battle ... z-250.html

As for the other types, have you looked at the KStN in use for the 3rd and 4th Companies ? I suspect that they used KStN 1113.
Alan

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#44

Post by yantaylor » 24 Jun 2017, 12:01

Thank you Alan, those conversions must have been done in the field as I can find little about them only that both the Alt and Nu version mounted 2cm flaks but these were not documented.
Thanks for the KStN I will look into that.
Yan.

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Re: 352. Division June 1944

#45

Post by yantaylor » 24 Jun 2017, 12:45

Alan, I have looked at the KStN you posted and found this;

Platoons number 3 and 4 each had;
2 x Sd.Kfz. 250/3s
3 x Sd.Kfz. 250/8s
2 x Sd.Kfz. 250/7s
24 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1s

Which brings it up to 31 Sd.Kfz. 250 [various models] per company, this seem right to you mate?

Yan.

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