Jagdtiger - were any actually armed with 88?

[A McAuslan]

Many sources state that varying numbers of Jagtigers were completed not with the 128 mm gun but with the 88 mm of the Tiger 11. I have examined every photograph I have of a Jagtiger and every one seems to me to be armed with the 128. Is the story of an 88 mm armed variant one of the 'fake' news stories of WW2? Alternatively were any actually built and can anyone tell me how many and point me to an illustration? Correct total production numbers of both 128 mm variants would also be greatly appreciated.
Sandy McAuslan

[Mark of Cain]

To this point there are "No known" photographs of the Jagdtiger tank destroyer with the 8.8cm L71 cannon. K.H Munch's combat history of Scw pnzr Jger Abt 653 has this unit covered in depth with no photo evidence of such types with 8.8cm. The other source, Andrew Devey's two volumes of technical and combat histories which discusses the two units equipped with the Jagdtigers were the 653rd Jagdtiger Abt and the 512 jagdtiger Abt and once again no known photos exist of a Jagdtiger equipped with the 8.8cm cannon.

Devey's technical volume mentions in early March due to a shortage of gun carriages produced by Krupp Bertawek AG Breslau that a modification for the 8.8cm L71 was instigated for the Jagdtiger... but nothing further. In further of the 150 12.8cm cannons produced by Friedrich Krupp AG Essen, 80 were mounted in Jagdtigers for combat or training/testing.

[spannermann]

Hi,
According to the book about Ni -Werk, "OKH TOY FACTORY" they say "the last Jagdtigers produced in April/May 1945 were fitted with 88's, due to there being no more mountings for the 152mm, seven or eight were completed............all were blown up at Ni-Werk on 4th May 45" and there is a photo of a blown up Jagdtiger in the factory yard with most of the fighting compartment missing and the gun clearly visible.

But the gun is clearly a 152 which which has a side loading breech as opposed to the 88 with a top loading breech, so this photo is definitley a 152 equipped Jagdtiger.

Also note the book quote above states the problem was the lack of gun mountings not the lack of guns.

It also may be possible to tell from the front of a Jagdtiger if its fitted with an 88 as it would very like have the 88's mantlet still fitted, this is necessary to have the correct balance on the gun mechanism, bearing in mind the mantlet (saurkopf ?) is part of the gun assembly and not part of the tank assembly,

If you were to look at the Jagdpanther 88's when used as extemporary Paks in fixed positions, they all have the Jagdpanther saurkopf fitted to maintain correct balance.

Also sights would need to change and also ammo stowage arrangements for the different size ammo, not an easy alteration if it ever happened, but so far no photographic evidence.

cheers leonard paul

[A McAuslan]

Thanks gentlemen. So far everything confirms my belief that none made it out of the factory. I had thought that the most likely location for an 88 Jagtiger would have been at Remagen because of the proximity of the factory to the bridge. But the US troops were voracious photographers and if it escaped them it almost certainly did not exist. It is a bit worrying when so many well respected authors perpetuate what I now believe to be little more than a rumour - unless someone out there can produce evidence to the contrary.
Sandy McAuslan

[yantaylor]

Didn't the version mounting a 8.8cm L/71 Pak 43/3, have the designation Sd.Kfz.185?

Yan.

[A McAuslan]

Hi Yan, Yes. The 'alleged' 88 mm variant had the designation Sd. Kfz. 185. My problem is that one source quotes 26 examples, others down to 4. The absence of any photographic evidence of an 88 when there are hundreds of photographs of 128 mm variants make me very sceptical that any were issued. The existence of an Sd. Kfz. number was made at design stage not at issuing to troops. The earliest reference to an 88 version I can trace is a footnote in F M von Senger und Etterlin's German Tanks of World War 11 and the most extreme is in Dr S Hart and Dr R Hart's German Tanks of World War 11 which states 'Steyr-Puch was forced to mount the 8.8cm L/71 KwK 43 gun , normally carried in the King Tiger tank in the last 26 of the 77 Jagdtigers completed.' If one in 3 were 88 mm armed then it is statistically inconceivable that with well over 100 photographs surviving the 88 would be absent from the photographic record.
Sandy McAuslan

[spannermann]

Hi All,

Must apologise for my note several above this one, why I said the Jagdtiger had a 152, no idea, so please read for 152 a 128mm gun, must have been reading too much about Russian guns or something.

cheers leonard paul

[A McAuslan]

Hi Leonard Paul - If you could see some of the typo's I've perpetrated you would know we all can make slips.
Sandy McAuslan

[yantaylor]

Hello Sandy.

I know that Chamberlain, Doyle and Jentz reckon that no Sd. Kfz. 185s were ever built.

Yan.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Hello Sandy.

I know that Chamberlain, Doyle and Jentz reckon that no Sd. Kfz. 185s were ever built.

Yan.

That's not entirely true.

From Panzer Tracts 9:

Production reached a peak month output of 20 in December 1944, with a total of about 85 Jagdtigers completed by the end of the war, including four with an 8.8 cm Pak 43 L/71 installed in April 1945.

[yantaylor]

Well Christian obviously that book is correct, but since I don't have that book I got the information from the book "Encyclopedia of German Tanks" by Chamberlain, Doyle and Jentz.

[A McAuslan]

Thanks for the interest gents. As a 'straw poll'
George Forty - yes - but Jadgpanther gun variant
Peter Chamberlain and Hilary L Doyle - 44 Henschell suspension then Porsche - no further comment.
Peter Chamberlain and Hilary L Doyle - records indicate 48 completed by end of war - at one period several were armed with 8.8cm Pak 43/3
Peter Chamberlain and Hilary L Doyle - 77 produced - A Jadgtiger mounting the 88cm L/71 was designated Sd Kfz 185 but this never went into production.
Terry Gander & Peter Chamberlain - 48 built by end of war some with Porsche suspension - no other comment
Paul Thomas - Only around 80 produced.
Michael Green - 11 with Porsche suspension no other comment
Ian Baxter - only 77 delivered
Drs Hart and Hart and F M von Senger und Etterlin already stated.
I have been collecting data and photographs on military equipment since the age of 11. Now I am 73 and have little time to resolve the 'mysteries' remaining. I have also accumulated a large library and the above is a selection of authors and their statements. Is it a case of 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'?
Cheers, Sandy McAuslan

[spannermann]

Hi,
How many built, well we know that chassis number 83 is in the Kublinka Museum and was one of the last taken from the factory, eight others being blown up at Ni-Werke, so does that mean 91 minimum actually completed, probably, plus some others at the end of the production line. So middle 90's

Apparently 120 hulls were manufactured by Eisenwerke Oberdonnu near Linz. As is the usual case, more hulls made that vehicles completed.

But it is not a simple job to put a different gun in a hull designed for something else, sights and all sighting calculations need to be different, ammo racks need to be different, and again the saurkopf will be different, as said previously for balance reasons its part of the gun, so has anybody seen a slimmer barrel fitted (an 88), probably with a muzzle brake (an 88) and a Jagdpanther or Tiger II saurkopf fitted (an 88) ?

cheers Leonard paul

[yantaylor]

Didn't these large and very powerful AFVs suffer from being crewed by inexperienced crew members and this led to many being ineffectual in battle?

Yan.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

The production reports show the following numbers recorded by Waffenamt:
1944-02: 2
1944-03: 0
1944-04: 0
1944-05: 0
1944-06: 0
1944-07: 3
1944-08: 3
1944-09: 8
1944-10: 9
1944-11: 6
1944-12: 20
1945-01: 10
1945-02: 13
1945-03: 3

I haven't found records yet for April 1945, but as the numbers above show, at least 77 were manufactured. The production reports themselves does not mention the suspension type, but we know from other records and photographs that there were a total of 11 Porsche suspension Jagdtigers including the prototype.